Rail size for a CALUMET 4X5 CC401?

[Dann Corbit]

It is supposed to have a 22 inch bellows, and I ordered a CALUMET 4X5 CC401 from KEH, and the camera arrived today (much delayed by fires in Oregon) and the rail is only 20 inches, like my other Calumet 4x5.
Now, if the CALUMET 4X5 CC401 has a 22 inch bellows, a 20 inch rail seems strange.
I would be loathe to send it back since I waited so long for it.
I am guessing that the only difference between the CC-400 and the CC-401 is the length of the bellows and the length of the rail.

So I guess the burning question is, did I get the wrong camera?

Now, there are other possibilities as well. I could have the 22 inch bellows and a shorter rail.
I have seen that long rails are quite expensive (e.g $75 for a 26 inch rail).
And a longer rail won't do me any good if the bellows won't expand far enough.
I suppose I might be able to buy one of the cheap Chinese bellows (but I would rather not, if I don't have to).
I did not measure the bellows yet, and I am not sure how to do it properly.
The 22 inch figure seems like it could have some play in it, depending on how far the bellows are stretched.

[Dan Fromm]

Dann, I'm all for solidarity among Dan's but I've had it with spoon feeding beginners. You can look it up for yourself.

Since you probably don't know where to look, here's a very strong hint. The first post in this https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?138978-Where-to-look-for-information-on-LF-(mainly)-lenses discussion goes to a list of links to sites etc. of interest to LF photographers. Click on the link, download the file. Text on the top of the first page explains why you have to download it.

There's a bookmark "Older modern view cameras." Expand it. Click on the "Calumet CC ..." link. Download the file. Your answer is in it. Sort of. Specifications slip.

[Dann Corbit]

Dann, I'm all for solidarity among Dan's but I've had it with spoon feeding beginners. You can look it up for yourself.

Since you probably don't know where to look, here's a very strong hint. The first post in this https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?138978-Where-to-look-for-information-on-LF-(mainly)-lenses discussion goes to a list of links to sites etc. of interest to LF photographers. Click on the link, download the file. Text on the top of the first page explains why you have to download it.

There's a bookmark "Older modern view cameras." Expand it. Click on the "Calumet CC ..." link. Download the file. Your answer is in it. Sort of. Specifications slip.

I downloaded that document "https://1drv.ms/b/s!AggQfcczvHGNkGG_P2z8Qiyc8Qo-"
I don't feel stupid for not knowing that camera model information should be found in a lens document.
I did not find the link you mentioned.
Calumet is not found in the document either.
I guess that you intended to give me another link.
I already figured out using web searches that KEH sold me the wrong camera.
It should be a 26 inch rail.
Chances are very good I will ask a lot of stupid questions and not know where to look for things.
I apologize in advance for that, but I guess that a lot of the experts in this forum had similar problems when they first started poking around.
I read the FAQ but probably most of it did not sink in.
I read the lens document and found it fantastic, but I would be puzzled to find lots of camera facts in it, and indeed I did not see a lot of those.

[Dan Fromm]

I just clicked on the link. It opened the file. "Download" appeared in the upper left hand corner of the screen. I clicked it. The file downloaded into my download directory. I clicked on the file and Adobe Reader opened it, with a set of bookmarks on the left of the screen. I scrolled down to "Older modern view cameras." There is a + to the left of it. I clicked on the + to expand the list of bookmarks. The second one says "Calumet CC401,"

Now, what did you do, which browser do you use and which OS do you use? I use Firefox, my desktop machine runs Win 10.

About KEH. They can't tell LF gear from holes in the ground.

[RivetGun]

It can be extremely frustrating learning the ropes of large format photography or any other complicated endeavor. I often read that a careful beginner can put together a very nice camera kit for $500 -$700. A veteran can do it but not a beginner that has no idea what he is getting into. I spent practically that much on 120 roll backs before I got backs that even fit my cameras. I did several hundred hours of research and the amount of misinformation on the internet is absolutely insane. I finally adopted the mentality to buy it and if it doesn't work get rid of it. I saw information on a subject that I know very well on this forum a month ago that was total bs by a very respected member that I still respect and have learned a lot from. Starting from nothing is hard and expensive.

[Dann Corbit]

It can be extremely frustrating learning the ropes of large format photography or any other complicated endeavor. I often read that a careful beginner can put together a very nice camera kit for $500 -$700. A veteran can do it but not a beginner that has no idea what he is getting into. I spent practically that much on 120 roll backs before I got backs that even fit my cameras. I did several hundred hours of research and the amount of misinformation on the internet is absolutely insane. I finally adopted the mentality to buy it and if it doesn't work get rid of it. I saw information on a subject that I know very well on this forum a month ago that was total bs by a very respected member that I still respect and have learned a lot from. Starting from nothing is hard and expensive.

I am very sure I will follow the same route, but sometimes the hard lessons are best remembered. And it injects a certain humor into the path so that in the future you can look back and laugh, "Remember when I bought that 75mm polaroid land camera lens for my 8x10? I could not figure out why all I could see was a little circle with a face in it in the middle of the ground glass."

It was Will Rogers who said, "Everyone is ignorant, only in different areas." which is, of course, true. I don't mind experts being cranky with me. Maybe some day, perhaps ten years from now, I can be a cranky expert too. I don't know if this forum has the equivalent of a killfile, but if it does, and you don't like loopy newbies, it might be a good idea to killfile me for a year or two. I am not going to suddenly turn on the "now I am saavy" lightbulb. Not that I want to be a whinging twit, but I have a bit of whinging twit in my soul, whether I like it or not.

[Tin Can]

It is a lot to study and everybody has opinions

Consider this thread

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/bellows-calumet-4x5-cc-401-camera.513284/

[Dan Fromm]

I don't know if this forum has the equivalent of a killfile, but if it does, and you don't like loopy newbies, it might be a good idea to killfile me for a year or two. I am not going to suddenly turn on the "now I am saavy" lightbulb. Not that I want to be a whinging twit, but I have a bit of whinging twit in my soul, whether I like it or not.

Go to settings, my account, edit ignore list.

At the moment you're a whinging twit who can't follow directions but that will probably change.

[Rick A]

https://www.cameraeccentric.com/static/img/pdfs/calumet_3.pdf

The cc-401 should have 26" rail, and 22" bellows. If KEH sent a model with 22" bellows, but the rail is short, they made a mistake and should refund or replace.

[Dan Fromm]

https://www.cameraeccentric.com/static/img/pdfs/calumet_3.pdf

The cc-401 should have 26" rail, and 22" bellows. If KEH sent a model with 22" bellows, but the rail is short, they made a mistake and should refund or replace.

Um, er, ah, why do you believe that? Calumet's Spring 1970 catalog says:


NORMAL 16" double extension bellows Camera CC-400

EXTRA LONG 22" triple extension bellows Camera CC-401

[choiliefan]

The extra bellows length on a 2" shorter rail accounts for swings, tilts, etc.
This has been my first useful contribution to this wonderful site.

[Mark Sampson]

I've used both Calumets extensively on the job. Dann Corbit, KEH sent you the correct camera, and it's a real workhorse- congratulations. The 22" rail is long enough for most any purpose.
The LF learning process can be difficult, but don't be discouraged. Believe it or not, the members here are happy to help beginners... stick around and after a while you'll be helping others out, too. Best of luck with your new camera!

[David Lindquist]

RivetGun: This forum doesn't have a "Like" button, I "liked" your post #5.

Dann Corbit: I think anyone who uses the word "whinging" is OK. Anyone who self-describes as being an occasional whinger, is more than OK.

Welcome to you both.

And Dan Fromm: Again thank you for all the work you've done to preserving access to what I call the industrial history of large format photography on the internet.

David

[Dann Corbit]

Um, er, ah, why do you believe that? Calumet's Spring 1970 catalog says:

Because it says that the CC-401 comes with a 22 inch long bellows.
See also:
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Calumet_CC-400

[Tin Can]

Most people who last in this game, change cameras quickly as they know more and want more

I haven't seen a camera I don't 'like'

which means I have more than I need

somebody has to save them

then it's the glass bead game, oops, meant lens game

and everybody paid less for theirs

[Dan Fromm]

Because it says that the CC-401 comes with a 22 inch long bellows.
See also:
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Calumet_CC-400

If the bellows were as long as the rail, movements would be impossible with full extension. Bellows are usually longer than the rail.

[Mark Sampson]

CC-400 = 16" rail. Most common model.
CC-401 = 22" rail. Otherwise identical to CC-400.
CC-402 = wide-angle camera. Shorter rail, different front standard, bag bellows. Less common than the others.

Originally introduced by Kodak c.1946, the design was sold to Calumet not long after; they made some improvements and continued to sell them until c.1990? when the line was replaced by Cambo-derived models. (Either Calumet owned Cambo, or vice-versa, in those days.)

[Dann Corbit]

I've used both Calumets extensively on the job. Dann Corbit, KEH sent you the correct camera, and it's a real workhorse- congratulations. The 22" rail is long enough for most any purpose.
The LF learning process can be difficult, but don't be discouraged. Believe it or not, the members here are happy to help beginners... stick around and after a while you'll be helping others out, too. Best of luck with your new camera!

It's a 20 inch rail, not a 22 inch rail.
The bellows is 16 inches long, making this camera a CC-400 and not a CC-401.
It's exactly identical to my other CC-400.

[Dann Corbit]

I've decided just to keep the second CC-400 since returning postage is about half the cost of the camera. Besides which, I don't have a view camera lens longer than 40cm and since I don't have a camera that can use a longer lens, I simply won't buy one. I have other cameras with longer lenses and besides, I have a telescope with photographic adapters, which is a really, really long lens (should I need one).

[Dann Corbit]

CC-400 = 16" rail. Most common model.
CC-401 = 22" rail. Otherwise identical to CC-400.
CC-402 = wide-angle camera. Shorter rail, different front standard, bag bellows. Less common than the others.

Originally introduced by Kodak c.1946, the design was sold to Calumet not long after; they made some improvements and continued to sell them until c.1990? when the line was replaced by Cambo-derived models. (Either Calumet owned Cambo, or vice-versa, in those days.)

Those are the bellows lengths. The rail lengths are 20 inches for the CC-400 and 26 inches for the CC-401

[Michael Roberts]

Those are the bellows lengths. The rail lengths are 20 inches for the CC-400 and 26 inches for the CC-401

Dann, fwiw, I concur. The specs are on pp.5 and 17 of the catalog linked by my Pastafarian brother Rick A, above.

Sorry you got a rude response to your question.

[Dann Corbit]

This is a CC-401:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Calumet-CC-401-4-x-5-View-Camera-Extra-Long-22-Triple-Extension-Bellow-w-Case/303445605248?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
I asked the seller to measure the rail. It is 26 inches long. I was going to buy this one (it's a great price) but I would have to return the current (2nd CC-400) and so I decided to just swallow my pride and keep this current setup.
My plan is to use one of the CC-400 cameras with 120 film (why not a 120 camera then? Better lenses, along with tilts, swings, etc). I already have the backs for it. The second camera will be strictly for 4x5.
I could just use one camera, but I see several benefits to using two cameras in this way. Firstly, the 120 film usage will be hard on the ground glass. This way, I will have a glass that stays clear and the other one will take the beating. Secondly, having a couple of pre-loaded 120 backs will speed up shooting should I want to use both cameras. And if some day I have a driving need to shoot 4x5 at more than 400mm, I will buy a longer camera then (maybe even an 8x10).

[Dann Corbit]

Dann, fwiw, I concur. The specs are on p.5 of the catalog linked by Rick A, above.

Sorry you got a rude response to your question.

Rude responses are probably good for me, as a reminder I need to put in more effort before posting instead of using the forum as a tool to entice others into doing the work for me. I guess that part of my problem is that right now I don't really know where to look for things. But that will come with time.

[Michael Roberts]

Feel free to email me any questions. I’ll be happy to answer whatever I can.

[Dann Corbit]

Feel free to email me any questions. I’ll be happy to answer whatever I can.

Thank you for the offer. That is very generous. It reminds me of the sig I use in the chess programming forum:

"Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching."

[mdarnton]

As people have said, KEH, while a good place, has some problems. I ordered a basic Cambo 4x5 from them once, and they sent the much fancier (and much larger) geared model, in a large box with one piece of packing paper thrown in, the camera bouncing around loose inside. The rail had punched several holes out the side of the box, in different places, and the front standard was bent out of shape (camera sent extended!). So there's that. But both Cambo and Calumet had too many similar models with tiny differences and different names, so not getting it right is sometimes understandable.

In this case, I wouldn't get too bent about 2" less bellows. You might soon discover that a view camera racked out to its max isn't really a fun thing to wrestle around anyway, and that moving to a slightly shorter lens usually acts about the same with a lot less hassle. In my opinion, the only reason to use max extension is for a really unusual lens that isn't similar to a shorter one you already own, like maybe that 20" Portland that cost you as much as your car. But I bet you don't have that problem, and the missing 2" is theoretical at this point.

[Dann Corbit]

As people have said, KEH, while a good place, has some problems. I ordered a basic Cambo 4x5 from them once, and they sent the much fancier (and much larger) geared model, in a large box with one piece of packing paper thrown in, the camera bouncing around loose inside. The rail had punched several holes out the side of the box, in different places, and the front standard was bent out of shape (camera sent extended!). So there's that. But both Cambo and Calumet had too many similar models with tiny differences and different names, so not getting it right is sometimes understandable.

In this case, I wouldn't get too bent about 2" less bellows. You might soon discover that a view camera racked out to its max isn't really a fun thing to wrestle around anyway, and that moving to a slightly shorter lens usually acts about the same with a lot less hassle. In my opinion, the only reason to use max extension is for a really unusual lens that isn't similar to a shorter one you already own, like maybe that 20" Portland that cost you as much as your car. But I bet you don't have that problem, and the missing 2" is theoretical at this point.

Well, the bellows difference is 22 inches - 16 inches = 6 inches.
Now, 16 inches is: 16 inches x 2.54 cetimeters/inch = 40.6 cm = 406 mm. Pretty long already. As soon as you go over 360mm the price goes nuts, especially if you want a fast lens.
And 22 inches is: 22 inches x 2.54 cetimeters/inch = 55.9 cm = 559 mm. That's a pretty exotic lens. I doubt if I could afford one that was in excellent shape and was fast. I think that a fast lens is important for telephoto. Even a small, variable breeze is going to introduce some wobble. The longer the lens stays open, the fuzzier the exposure is going to get. Telescopes solve this problem using a pier (and sometimes a clamshell, even for amateur setups... my cousin has such a setup). Of course, that is a non-starter for regular photography.

So, while the math was off a bit, the reasoning is fully correct. You have convinced me even more fully that I do not need the CC-401.

[Dann Corbit]

Further, telephoto designs (e.g. the Fujinon T 400 mm f/8) don't need the full 400mm for focus at infinity due to the telephoto design of the lens itself. So it would be a truly exotic lense that needs more than 400mm to focus at infininte. Of course, at 400mm, the bellows would probably be strained too much for movements, so 360mm is probably a more realistic length for actual use. I am just guessing there, however.

[Mark Sampson]

Sorry Dann, I did some thinking and realized that it's been at least 25 years since I worked with those cameras. Have fun with yours!
BTW the last time I used a long-rail Calumet, I had a 19" (480mm) f/11 Goerz red-dot Artar lens on it. Plenty long for me!

[grat]

The CC-401 has a 22" bellows, but like most monorail cameras, there's a standard on each end, which doesn't overhang the ends of the rail in any photograph I could find, so it's kind of obvious that the rail is longer than the bellows.

The fact that it took three pages for the experts to come to this conclusion suggests that a novice to large format photography should not be castigated for being concerned.

Dan (C): Whether you return it or not, let KEH know they screwed up and sold you the wrong camera.

Because if this clip from the 1965 Calumet Camera catalog is to be believed, they did.

207903

[Dann Corbit]

Sorry Dann, I did some thinking and realized that it's been at least 25 years since I worked with those cameras. Have fun with yours!
BTW the last time I used a long-rail Calumet, I had a 19" (480mm) f/11 Goerz red-dot Artar lens on it. Plenty long for me!

Careful with that! You'll entice me into buying another camera.

[Dann Corbit]

The CC-401 has a 22" bellows, but like most monorail cameras, there's a standard on each end, which doesn't overhang the ends of the rail in any photograph I could find, so it's kind of obvious that the rail is longer than the bellows.

The fact that it took three pages for the experts to come to this conclusion suggests that a novice to large format photography should not be castigated for being concerned.

Dan (C): Whether you return it or not, let KEH know they screwed up and sold you the wrong camera.

Because if this clip from the 1965 Calumet Camera catalog is to be believed, they did.

207903

I sent KEH a message on Friday with a photograph of the rail with a tape measure showing the length.
I don't want to discourage vendors from selling view camera stuff, so I won't get my nose out of joint and demand he pay for reverse shipping and send me a CC-401.
Now that I have calmed down about getting the wrong thing (I still would rather have gotten a CC-401) I am not hot under the collar about it.
I am sure it was an honest mistake.

My camera was also very well packed and in closed position (as I was unpacking it, my youngest son exclaimed, "That camera must be really valuable!").
So I guess they learned a lesson from previous bad packing jobs (see horror story up-thread).
If we were to gripe at all the view camera vendors for every faux pas, we could eventually drive them out of the business.
And God knows we all make mistakes. I have demonstrated several right here in this very thread.

[Dann Corbit]

FWIW, I got a response back from KEH and they offered to send me a return shipping label and were very apologetic.
I told them not to worry about it.

[Rod Klukas]

Dan is correct as Calumet and many companies make changes but do not announce them and don't instantly reprint catalogues--Too expensive.

The 1965 catalogue says CC-400 16" bellows on 22" rail. ($89.95) CC-401 22" bellows on 26" rail.($114.95)

Hope this helps

[Tin Can]

KEH is great on returns. I just did my first. They emailed me Pre Paid USPS shipping label. I fixed my printer and printed. Dropped off at PO and instantly it was tracked.

2 days after the quick shipping I had money back.

I will use KEH again just as I have for years.



FWIW, I got a response back from KEH and they offered to send me a return shipping label and were very apologetic.
I told them not to worry about it.

[Rick A]

Um, er, ah, why do you believe that? Calumet's Spring 1970 catalog says:

I got that info from the link I shared, bottom of page 5. Did I read it wrong? The OP's question pertains to the rail length, he received a 20" rail not a 26" for the cc-401.