NEWB Questions! Speed Graphic/Aero Ektar? Interesting portrait lenses in shutters?

[maxcooperavl]

Hello! I'm the newb who posted about the Dallmeyer Pentac 8" in the other thread. I'm a wedding photographer now mostly unemployed due to COVID, and I'm looking to branch out into high-end portraiture. I also shoot landscapes and I've been doing okay with selling prints this year. I'm hoping these two endeavors could compensate some of the lost wedding income. I'm a very experienced photog, but when it comes to large format I have no idea what I'm doing.

It seems that the portraits I'm most drawn to are shot with the Aero Ektar on a Speed Graphic. The Pentac was an attempt to get something similar relatively cheaply. My Speed Graphic arrives today, but I've since learned that it's incompatible with the lens board (JoLo) I planned to use. So now I'm kinda back to square one.

It occurs to me that if I found some interesting character lenses in shutters, I could just use a plain ol' field camera for the portraits as well as the landscapes, thereby killing two birds with one stone. I would have been using the SG/Pentac on a tripod, anyway, and focusing on the ground glass. The idea of being able to use something remotely modern on paid gigs is comforting, especially since there are already many opportunities for error for a LF newb like me. Not sure I trust the SG focal plane shutter. Are there lenses out there that could work for this? I'm not finding a great deal of info, and it seems like most lenses top out at f/4.5, if that. Using Flickr as my main source of research.

I'd appreciate any guidance y'all can give. Thanks in advance for your wisdom!

[Jody_S]

Anything faster than f4.5 that covers 4x5 but especially 5x7 or larger is going to be phenomenally expensive, even more so in shutter. Your Pentac was your best bet for a budget lens (there's a reason the wartime Pentacs are relatively cheap). The lens could have been disassembled and cleaned, it's not that hard to do, but it still won't have the Aero-Ektar look which is quite distinctive.


The closest budget lens I've found that works in a Speed Graphic is the Rollei Heidosmat 150mm f2.8 projection lens, which can be found under US$100. If you use a hacksaw and cut off the external aluminum tube, it mounts quite easily on an Anniversary Speed wooden board (hot glue or similar to hold in place). Or if you don't trust the Speed focal plane shutter and want to go with a field camera, there are Packard or LUC shutters that can be front-mounted on most of these lenses, some of them have flash syncs. You'll need basic skills and some tools to cobble this sort of thing together, this is very much a hands-on practise.

[BrianShaw]

I’m almost the polar opposite of you... I’m experienced with LF but not a great photographer. :)

I’m experienced with SG in many contexts, including using “character lenses” with the focal plane shutter. It can work but I wouldn’t even think of it for a professional job. In general I thin these “character lenses” are overrated. What word best for me in LF are Kodak Commercial Ektars. Not cheap but classic.

For camera, I’ve tried many and keep reverting to a basic monorail on a stout tripod as the best option. I used a Cambo that I bought circa 1985. Easy to switch lenses, move, refocus, and reframe when transitioning from head-and-shoulders to full-length. Field cameras can work but the monorail has less fiddley controls. Less fiddling means more time interacts with subject which generally means better results. Plus, they and accessories are readily available at good prices.

[BrianShaw]

P.S. let me also be perfectly honest... for high-quality portraiture I’m more often inclined to use a Hasselblad. :). The exception being if I’m thinking of contact printing in an alt process.

I love LF photography but too often I’m finding that it’s not the only or best tool to use.

[jp]

I've been using a speed graphic with focal plane shutter for about 90% of my LF photography for 10 years. If the shutter work properly, it's reliable.

For a budget lens for portraits, look no further than the fujinar 210/4.5 in a copal3 or shanel shutter. Nice round iris for a shuttered lens. Dime a dozen straight from japan on ebay.
https://flic.kr/p/cdiHNb

If you don't mind using the focal plane shutter, the 210 trioplan is also a very nice and affordable triplet that's wider aperture than optar/ektar lenses (not triplet but otherwise valued for portraiture).
https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=13759696%40N02&sort=date-taken-desc&view_all=1&text=trioplan

[maxcooperavl]

@jp: Excellent info. Thanks for the sample images!

All: Thanks so much for your thoughts! Speed Graphic arrived today and the shutter seems to be working fine . . .

[Dugan]

OP: Do you have a Pacemaker or an Anniversary SG?

[maxcooperavl]

Wellllll, funny story about that. I have only used a 4x5 camera once, about 15 years ago. It was a Speed Graphic. The one that just arrived was supposed to be an Anniversary SG. But it was a lot smaller than I remembered. Seemed very handy and packable. I thought "This isn't so bad, what's all the fuss about these being heavy and hard to carry?" Then I got out the ruler.

It's a damn 3x4 Graphic. Good thing it was only $80. Guess I'll re-sell it and start from scratch.

[mhayashi]

Max, check out some of the similar questions about aero-ektar alternatives below.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/search.php?searchid=9739978

There are some suggestions of the lenses that I come up with.
schneider xenotar
schneider xenar 3.5/4.5
zeiss planar
zeiss tessar 3.5/4.5

I don’t have a speed graphic camera,
but for a similar reason to you, I use a sinar copal shutter to use fast barrel lenses for portrait. These are not in shutters but unique lenses but you have a focal plane shutter now so why not to take an advantage of the camera?
zeiss tessar f2.7 165mm
zeiss biotessar f2.8 165mm
which will be used in a few months.

207728

[maxcooperavl]

@mhayashi, thanks for this info! Given the fact that both the lens and camera I ordered ended up being unusable, I'm a little frustrated with this project and have decided to use a Mamiya C330. But I'm afraid the bug has bitten. I have a feeling a 4x5 of some sort is in my future. I appreciate all the help in this and the other thread!

[leighmarrin]

Wellllll, funny story about that. I have only used a 4x5 camera once, about 15 years ago. It was a Speed Graphic. The one that just arrived was supposed to be an Anniversary SG. But it was a lot smaller than I remembered. Seemed very handy and packable. I thought "This isn't so bad, what's all the fuss about these being heavy and hard to carry?" Then I got out the ruler.

It's a damn 3x4 Graphic. Good thing it was only $80. Guess I'll re-sell it and start from scratch.

Max, Freestyle stocks 3x4 film, but it is a little pricey at $83 for 25 sheets of FP4. They say next month they'll have Adox 100 in stock for $59. Film holders and metal hangers are cheap and common on the used market.

But our LF forum considers 3x4 to be a small format, so you can't post your work in the main LF image section.

[Tobias Key]

Personally I would try a modern f5.6 210mm or 240mm lens before I got too caught up in the vintage lens rabbit hole. F5.6 on a 4x5 camera is already pretty shallow (1.4 or 1.2 on a 35mm camera) and a lot of the effect you want can be gotten by just getting relatively close with a lens like that. A 4.5 tessar clone isn't going to be radically different and has other downsides. If that doesn't work at least you have a decent sharp, functioning lens you can use for other things. To an extent very fast lenses can be just a quick fix to rescue otherwise boring pictures. Basically an instagram filter but expensive and radioactive!

I have shot a lot of portraiture with my large format camera and never shoot wide open now because it's very hard on both you and the sitter to make sure focus is in the right place. I found this became an overriding consideration in my work flow to the detriment of overall creativity. Even a headshot at F16 has relatively little DOF on a 4x5 camera. My worry for you as a newcomer would be you would lose too many shots shooting wide open with a very fast lens and become frustrated or disheartened. If you look at the work of someone like Dan Winters who has shot a lot of LF portraits commercially everything is shot at F22 or 32, and there are very good reasons for that.

[maxcooperavl]

Tobias, I hear and for the most part agree that the shallow look is overrated. Without getting too much into the philosophy of it, I will point out that IG filters do not require the skill of truly capturing razor thing DOF sharpness with a manual focus camera. As a wedding photographer, I shoot 100% manual focus primes, so I'm aware of the struggle. Personally, I really like the Aero Ektar look, but I'm also coming at it from a marketability standpoint. That look is completely unique in my market, even if every hipster on IG has a million photos just like it.

If it were up to me I'd be a normal lens purist, which leads me to my next question: Ektar 152mm or Nikkor-W 150?

[Dugan]

Apples vs. Oranges...
Plasmat vs. Tessar

[Tobias Key]

I am a wedding photographer too and my main issue with shooting something like a Speed Graphic/Aero Ektar combo would be reliability, particularly with a decades old focal plane shutter. Even the late large format lenses bought secondhand are going to be 20 years old in all likelihood. I did experiment with adding large format to my weddings last year, but haven't shot any weddings big enough to justify it this year. It's been less than a month since weddings returned to the UK with up to 30 guests only and no dancing allowed. So most of my days have finished early.

I have settled on shooting with a Wista 45DX and a Schneider 210mm APO Symmar, but also have a 125mm Fuji and 75mm Super Angulon in the bag. Everything is relatively modern and I fitted a new bellows to the camera.

My take from last year was using large format did add something extra but you need to do it in a quieter part of the wedding. I used the time between the speeches and the first dance when the light is nice but nothing is really happening. If I could I would set up the camera and compose the shot with an assistant or cooperative member of the bridal party before I called over the bride and groom. Obviously you can't do that at every venue. My aim was to minimise the time that I was fiddling with the camera in front of the bride and groom and make the best use of their time. The settings I used were quite conservative, possibly erring on too conservative, but I like to be sure I have a good choice of usable images, I can always shoot more images with shallower depth of field afterwards.

The other issue you may run into is have too much light to shoot the camera wide open. If it is sunny you'd be lucky to get below F4 even with 100 iso film. Overcast conditions would be better and fading light ideal, but that would depend on when sunset is and whether that clashes with any of the set events in the wedding. You might have to attach ND filters but I don't think an aero ektar has a standard filter thread on the front of it so you'd have to work out some kind of solution for that problem.

Hope this is helpful!



207804

[maxcooperavl]

... haven't shot any weddings big enough to justify it this year. It's been less than a month since weddings returned to the UK with up to 30 guests only and no dancing allowed. So most of my days have finished early.

207804

I hear this loud and clear. The wedding scene is so desolate here that many vendors (including me) are looking for an exit strategy. I have exactly two weddings booked for next year, plus a bunch of reschedules from this year. And the last couple of weddings I've shot have been so poorly socially distanced that I'm thinking they might be the biggest COVID vector for our family. My wife works from home, we're keeping our kid home from school, but then I go out and shoot a no-mask dance party every weekend? Not wise.

Hence the transition to portraits. But I agree about the shutter (and everything else). I believed I mentioned above that I've picked up a Mamiya C330 to get started with, and if the project takes off I'm now leaning toward modern lenses as you suggested, probably on a Crown Graphic. Honestly, digital would work fine for what I actually want to do, but the camera has to look the part, and I'm much more interested in film these days.

[Tobias Key]

I hear this loud and clear. The wedding scene is so desolate here that many vendors (including me) are looking for an exit strategy. I have exactly two weddings booked for next year, plus a bunch of reschedules from this year. And the last couple of weddings I've shot have been so poorly socially distanced that I'm thinking they might be the biggest COVID vector for our family. My wife works from home, we're keeping our kid home from school, but then I go out and shoot a no-mask dance party every weekend? Not wise.

Hence the transition to portraits. But I agree about the shutter (and everything else). I believed I mentioned above that I've picked up a Mamiya C330 to get started with, and if the project takes off I'm now leaning toward modern lenses as you suggested, probably on a Crown Graphic. Honestly, digital would work fine for what I actually want to do, but the camera has to look the part, and I'm much more interested in film these days.

I have been thinking along the same lines. I have done a few weddings since restrictions eased in the UK and to be honest if one person had covid at any of them, they would all have caught it by the end of the day. Dancing is banned and the ceremony is masked for everyone but the couple. But notwithstanding that it is just not realistic to expect people not to hug or get close to each other on such an emotional day. I had one wedding where the mother of the bride got tearful and literally about 10 people hugged her, and most them were over 60. It's also very difficult to shoot a wedding and be masked all day, and there is a certain amount of peer pressure if you are the only one wearing a mask at the reception.

Portraits are a much more controllable environment and you can do them outside. I think it is a good idea to be as different as possible. Historically recessions have always increased entry into professional photography as people get made redundant and decide to try photography as a way to earn extra cash. The last thing you want to do is to be competing at the bottom end of the market with some guy who has just blown his severance on a shiny new digital camera.