LF TTL Metering Systems Inquiry- Experience with these?

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50203582227_52df59095c_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jujtVV)LF TTL Metering Systems 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2jujtVV) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50202779358_6296d6cffa_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jufngm)LF TTL Metering Systems 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2jufngm) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr


Hi All,

I am renovating the storage space in my basement into a retro 1960s/1970s commercial studio.

I have some interest in getting these items up and running. On the right is a Broncolor FCM2 Meter hooked up to a Broncolor FCM Booster (TTL probe). I have the original instructions but they don't reference these two items together. I am looking for some information regarding using this as intended. I have Impact 21 and 41 Brocolor Monolights which work wireless with these and are about the same vintage. The Metering Cassette is Sinar Norma.

On the left is the Plaubel Peco Profia TTL Metering System as near as I can tell. I remember Arthur Kramer covering this in Modern Photography about mid 1970s. My Peco Profia catalog references 97309 Adapter For Measuring Light on Ground Glass PS1/440/2. I think that is what I have here? I bought a Lunasix Meter but it does not have the proper coupling to snap on to the TTL mechanism. Can anybody point me in the proper direction on this what I need to make this functional?

I have four Sinarsix Norma cassette units 4x5 5x7 and 8x10 which I use for ambient TTL light measurement with my Normas. Amazingly all four Sinarsixes still function correctly and are accurate :)

[Daniel Unkefer]

My Broncolor Impact 21's and 41's are newer and have long served me well, I'm hoping the FCM2 Meter and the FCM Booster are compatible with those. I guess I'll run through the instructions and test everything to find out.

The Plaubel Light Measuring Adapter is a Gossen Lunapro Microscope Adapter, which I think fits the regular Gossen Luna Pro. So if I can find a good accurately reading Luna Pro I should be in business. I do have MR9 adapter and 368 cells so I think I will power it that way.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50215750598_bba6b2a804_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jvoRaq)4x5 5x7 8x10 Normas (https://flic.kr/p/2jvoRaq) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Third Norma Shutter came back repaired today. So you can see I have an original Sinarsix TTL on each of my three field Normas; the 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10

Exposure accuracy goes way up, when you use the Norma Sinarsix in ambient lighting conditions. The newer Broncolor FCM incident and FCM2 TTL work well in flash and/or ambient conditions.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50255193046_69d24856c9_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jyT12C)Plaubel Peco Profia TTL Metering Setup (https://flic.kr/p/2jyT12C) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

This is a 1970s-vintage Plaubel Peco Profia TTL Metering Attachment, with the appropriate fully functioning Gossen Luna Pro. The meter is reliable and appears to be working perfectly.

This attachment goes onto a Plaubel Peco Profia Bag Bellows Viewer, which attaches behind the ground glass. To meter through the camera, you first press the black metal tube (on the right side in the photo) onto the ground glass, you can see the glass highly magnified, and select an area to be metered. The push all the way in the long silver rod on the unit, and activate the Luna Pro with it's rocker switch, to take and lock in a light reading.

Is anybody here familiar with this unit? I would like some help in getting accurate exposure readings with this unit.

[Bob Salomon]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50255193046_69d24856c9_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jyT12C)Plaubel Peco Profia TTL Metering Setup (https://flic.kr/p/2jyT12C) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

This is a 1970s-vintage Plaubel Peco Profia TTL Metering Attachment, with the appropriate fully functioning Gossen Luna Pro. The meter is reliable and appears to be working perfectly.

This attachment goes onto a Plaubel Peco Profia Bag Bellows Viewer, which attaches behind the ground glass. To meter through the camera, you first press the black metal tube (on the right side in the photo) onto the ground glass, you can see the glass highly magnified, and select an area to be metered. The push all the way in the long silver rod on the unit, and activate the Luna Pro with it's rocker switch, to take and lock in a light reading.

Is anybody here familiar with this unit? I would like some help in getting accurate exposure readings with this unit.

It basically operates exactly the same way as the bellows/metering focusing bellows on the back of a LInhof. Except it mechanically is more complex. The LInhof just used the Lunapro and the microscope adapter which plugs into the eyepiece of the focus/metering bellows. That let you move the metering spot to any quadrant of the gg to meter or by pulling the bellows all the way back you could average the entire scene on the gg.
To meter through a gg you need the Fresnel lens and you have to determine the light loss of the gg/fresnel. You do this by placing a grey card in a scene, meter it hand held and then meter it through the gg. The difference is the light loss and you enter that on the meter as a filter factor. It won’t change with lenses but will change if you change the gg or the fresnel.
If you can’t get a large enough grey card for metering at infinity use an evenly lit surface as a substitute. Otherwise you would also be fighting bellows extension.

[Daniel Unkefer]

That makes perfect sense. Thank You Bob!

[Pieter]

207019I don't know if this helps, it is from the Sinar System Handbook, 1977.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Thanks for that Pieter!

That is a more modern Sinarsix manual and it has a few tidbits not in the Norma Sinarsix manual. :)

[Dan O'Farrell]

To meter through a gg you need the Fresnel lens and you have to determine the light loss of the gg/fresnel. You do this by placing a grey card in a scene, meter it hand held and then meter it through the gg. The difference is the light loss and you enter that on the meter as a filter factor. It won’t change with lenses but will change if you change the gg or the fresnel.
If you can’t get a large enough grey card for metering at infinity use an evenly lit surface as a substitute. Otherwise you would also be fighting bellows extension.

Bob, this sounds like a good system, but wouldn't we have to calibrate each lens separately, at least for the maximum aperture?

[Bob Salomon]

Bob, this sounds like a good system, but wouldn't we have to calibrate each lens separately, at least for the maximum aperture?

No, since you are reading ttl, off the gg/fresnel, you only have to worry about light loss from your specific gg/fresnel. So you would only have to recalibrate when you change the gg, the fresnel or both.
If you are a heavy smoker around the camera you might have to do some cleaning or readjusting for deposits on the gg/fresnel or cover glass. But that is seldom a problem today.

[Dan O'Farrell]

Thanks for the quick clarification, Bob. I always value your experience, especially with Linhof products. My experience is limited, in this area, to a groundglass probe for the Minolta Auto IV F, which requires calibration to open-aperture measurement, which ( potentially) differs for each lens. I'll have to look around for the Linhof metering focusing bellows ( I think that's what I look for?).

[Drew Bedo]

I had a Sinar-Six outfit and later on a Sinar Boostyer-1 that plugged into my Minolta Autometer IV f.

Both systrems seemed combersome to use and awkward for me.

A long time ago I tried to invent an averaging metyer using RadioShack components built into an old film holder. Turns out I don't have the knowledge base in electronics needed, nor the tools or skill set. Used photo cells a resister or two and a cheap little multi-meter for read out.

With today's digital technology and so on, I would think a film holder based rig could be a real possibility . . Maybe something using a little digital camera as the sensor and meter read-out.


.and I still dopn't really know what I am talking about.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50299452847_3418a21bf0_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jCMQVD)Sinar Norma Handy w TTL Sinarsix metering (https://flic.kr/p/2jCMQVD) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I have found another use for my Sinarsixes! :)

This is my homemade Sinar Norma Handy camera, with 65mm f8 Super Angulon. Reading TTL with the Sinarsix through the camera, at EI 250 HP5+ I am reading EV9 which equates to 1/125 at F8 on a heavy overcast day.

This in my experience is a believable light reading. And on bright days it will read through the center filter and I can read all four corners TTL

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51370034478_b34f69ddf3_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mgoRxC)TTL Plaubel Makiflex with Sinarsix 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2mgoRxC) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51370812245_3a29540e75_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mgsQKp)TTL Plaubel Makiflex with Sinarsix 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2mgsQKp) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

If I lock the shutter open with a cable release, I can measure TTL with the Sinar Norma 4x5 Sinarsix.

Useful when shooting close up and using colored filters. Reading a grey card in the center of the scene is what Sinar called the "Direct Method" and it's extremely accurate!

[Drew Bedo]

I hqad a Siknar-Six with probe at one time and didn't like it.

Later on I got a Sinar One probe that plugged right into my Minolta Autometer IV f. Didn't like that set up either.

Maybe the Broncolor swrt ups are someonehow better.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Hey Drew

I'm using the old original Norma Sinarsix just reading the ambient TTL and I admit it's cumbersome and slow, but mine is pretty much right on so far with my uses for it. All my ambient meters use the old European Gossen Lunasix Meters. With Wein Cells I'm getting realistic TTL readings. Sometimes helpful.

I'm setting up a few Broncolor strobes but no TTL so far. I have the flashmeter that balances strobe with ambient. Probably cumbersome and slow but useful sometimes?

Calibrating the Plaubel TTL will be a hoot. I have two metal discs for it that change the area of the ground glass being read.

[maltfalc]

I had a Sinar-Six outfit and later on a Sinar Boostyer-1 that plugged into my Minolta Autometer IV f.

Both systrems seemed combersome to use and awkward for me.

A long time ago I tried to invent an averaging metyer using RadioShack components built into an old film holder. Turns out I don't have the knowledge base in electronics needed, nor the tools or skill set. Used photo cells a resister or two and a cheap little multi-meter for read out.

With today's digital technology and so on, I would think a film holder based rig could be a real possibility . . Maybe something using a little digital camera as the sensor and meter read-out.


.and I still dopn't really know what I am talking about.in theory it wouldn't be too difficult to modify a cheap p&s digital camera and mount the bare sensor at the end of a probe in a film holder. you'd just have to set the iso to match your film and aperture to wide open and you'd be able to use the live view to spot meter, focus and even take heavily cropped test shots with flash if the p&s has an electronic shutter and you use it's built in flash as an optical trigger.

[Willie]

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0045qO

A bit of information from 20 years ago.

Have and use a Calculite XP with the ground glass attachment. Small & light, it works well.

[Greg]

When I was commercially doing Photomacrography and photomicrography with my Nikon Multiphot, I used a 4x5 Horseman exposure meter along with a Sinarsix. Was shooting 4x5 Chromes and on some large jobs shooting bracketed exposures would not have been cost effective. The Sinarsix excelled at reflective, on axis lighting, and dark field photography, whereas the Horseman excelled at transmitted light photography. Keeping detailed notes was the trick to getting right on exposures 98% of the time. For black & white negatives, the Horseman was the quickest and easiest to use. The Sinarsix for me was always a not so quick way of determining the correct exposures, but the cost savings of not having to bracket totally negated the extra time it took. For me reciprocity was the Achilles Heel more than often. Next to the Multiphot, I had a lightbox with 3 4x5 Chromes taken of a Maisel Color Chart. One +1 stop, one normal exposure, and one -1 stop. These helped me immensely in getting my first exposures right on. In the field I exclusively used the Horseman to determine the exposures for my Chromes. Initially shot 4x5 Color Polaroids, but they soon became too great of an additional materials expense. A number of years ago I switched to shooting with a FX DSLR tethered to a Macbook and never looked back. My present project is to shoot single B&W frames off of three reels of 16mm film. Initially I set up to shoot 4x5 B&W negatives determining the exposures with the 4x5 Horseman meter, but soon switched to shooting digital DX with a Nikon D850 when I came to the realization of the project would be including 100+ frames and not the initial only estimated to be 16 frames. Back when I initially found using the Sinar TTL meter difficult since I didn't have an IB for it. I was wrong... the IB helped me little. It was just plain using the TTL meter that made me proficient at using it.

[Daniel Unkefer]

The Sinarsix excelled at reflective, on axis lighting, and dark field photography.Keeping detailed notes was the trick to getting right on exposures 98% of the time. The Sinarsix for me was always a not so quick way of determining the correct exposures, but the cost savings of not having to bracket totally negated the extra time it took. For me reciprocity was the Achilles Heel more than often. Back when I initially found using the Sinar TTL meter difficult since I didn't have an IB for it. I was wrong... the IB helped me little. It was just plain using the TTL meter that made me proficient at using it.

Wow Great Information first hand. Thanks Greg!

Agree with all the above. I have five Sinarsixes on hand in my studio, I was getting confident with my first one when I got really busy and all was set aside for decades. Now it is coming back out. It amazes me that all the Lunasix Meters are reading about the same. Oldies but goodies. BTW I have a Wein adapter in each one is it's on the nose in each unit.

The Sinar Norma Sinarsix Instruction manual is thick, precisely detailed, and a LOT LOT of information. For now I am using the simple easy peasy "direct method" at taking aperture with grey card. Bellows draw, filter factors, camera movements, interior bellows flare, these are some of the factors that can -additively compound- and overall throw off exposure a bit. TTL resolves a lot of seen and unseen issues. Concentrating on the photograph without distraction quickly and precisely was always the Norma goal

The Norma Sinarsix came with three different interchangeable snap-on exposure scales, including the "X" scale which includes some basic reciprocity adjustments, and the "S" which is customizable. It's a versatile old school dinosaur TTL system that amazingly works precisely and accurately even today.

And YES I make detailed notes so I can repeat things later on

"It was just plain using the TTL meter that made me proficient at using it." ABSOLUTELY TRUE :)