Crud on negatives

[Pieter]

I tried posting to another forum, but didn't get any suggestions that worked.

I went to print a negative from about 4 years ago, and discovered a layer of haze or something on the backing side of the film (120). I have tried cleaning with a PecPad and film cleaner, a PecPad and water, a PecPad and Dawn dish detergent, and rewashing the film in running water for 10 minutes. Nothing seems to remove it. Any suggestions? It shows up in a print, but not as bad as it looks on the film. I took this snapshot to highlight the crud. Once thing I noticed is a fingerprint on it--I generally handle film with gloves, so I'm not sure where that came from. The negatives have been stored in a Printfile sleeve.

206678

[Pieter]

I forgot to add, this is how this printed 4 years ago.

206679

[LabRat]

You can send the film to the FBI to run the fingerprint through the database to see who touched your film (just kidding ;-))...

Usually this kind of stuff comes from;

1/ Hard water washes that minerals are in emulsion that don't wash out completely, eventually leach out leaving a haze...

2/ A processing chem solution was too strong, that didn't wash out completely with normal wash (fixer, PF come to mind or by-products of chem steps...

3/ Other outside sources of contamination (dirt, drywall dust, plasticizers from poly sleeves etc...

4/ Film manufacturer defect (ask Ilford rep)...

In one of the AA books (I think "The Negative" ) was a washing procedure involving sodium carbonate + long wash to fully swelled neg where minerals can be released, followed by a thin wash hose rinse...

We had to use the stuff you listed for some commercial lab stuff that finally came clean from a long wash and even some "scrubbing" with soft brush, then hose rinse...

But an iffy process... And I think we tried re-fixing in a acid hardening rapid fix bath that might also had worked, but I don't exactly remember...

I seem to remember we got most to all off by one of the methods...

Good luck!!!

Steve K

[Doremus Scudder]

If it is a mineral deposit from hard water, you might try a longish soak in an acetic-acid stop bath and see if that helps. Often the minerals in hard water are carbonates that acid can dissolve away.

Best,

Doremus

[ethanfg]

I tried posting to another forum, but didn't get any suggestions that worked.

I went to print a negative from about 4 years ago, and discovered a layer of haze or something on the backing side of the film (120). I have tried cleaning with a PecPad and film cleaner, a PecPad and water, a PecPad and Dawn dish detergent, and rewashing the film in running water for 10 minutes. Nothing seems to remove it. Any suggestions? It shows up in a print, but not as bad as it looks on the film. I took this snapshot to highlight the crud. Once thing I noticed is a fingerprint on it--I generally handle film with gloves, so I'm not sure where that came from. The negatives have been stored in a Printfile sleeve.

206678

Interesting. About a week ago, upon reviewing some E6 slides from a couple years ago, I saw this same problem. I wonder if it is the sleeves I keep them in. What kind of sleeves are you keeping your film in? Perhaps there was a bad batch?

Ethan

[Pieter]

I took Doremus' suggestion, soaking the film in stop bath for 5 minutes then washing yet again. I had high hopes as the wash water had a blue tint to it. But upon drying, everything looks the same. I even tried scraping at it with a fingernail between frames but that doesn't even remove it. I will try and see if I can minimize the effect of the schmutz by printing soft in the areas most affected.

[Doremus Scudder]

Sorry my suggestion didn't work.

Another question:

Is the "crud" really foreign material somehow adhering to the film or do you have some crinkling/blistering of the emulsion? If the latter, then maybe bad storage conditions have damaged the emulsion or there was some kind of contamination or defect that caused the emulsion to blister.

Doremus

[Pieter]

It is definitely on the non-emulsion side. The negatives have been stored as all my others, in PrintFile pages. It is almost like a soap scum, but won't wash off. I may try being more generous with film cleaner and rubbing it a bit more--after I try printing the neg another time. Worst case scenario, I may be able to scan the neg, clean it up and make an LVT negative. Or just write it off.

[Doremus Scudder]

The non-emulsion side is coated too... I had problems with some films deteriorating on the non-emulsion side in the past, notably BPF200. Lots of irregularities and small blisters.

Doremus

[Robbie Bedell]

Pieter, Did you try a soak in a Photo Flo solution? Although the dawn detergent may be close, perhaps the photo flo would have something 'extra'..

[Pieter]

Pieter, Did you try a soak in a Photo Flo solution? Although the dawn detergent may be close, perhaps the photo flo would have something 'extra'..

I did put a couple off drops of PhotoFlo in the wash at the end, but my understanding is it just breaks down the surface tension of the water so drops don't form.

I tried printing the neg at maximum aperture, but the crud shows. Curiously, a scan didn't pick it up. I now have to determine how important the image is to my project and if I want to proceed having an LVT neg made. The good news is it is a pretty thin negative so the gain in contrast in an LVT shouldn't hurt it much.