Calling out Toyo VX 125 owners

[Jeff_6215]

I'm interested in getting one of these intriguing machines, but am still not completly sure. Is there an owner in the So. California area that wouldn't mind me coming over to take a look at theirs? As I'm sure all of you have experienced, all the reviews in the world are no substitute for 5 minutes of hands-on examination.

Or anyone see one used for sale in a shop? Or at least out of its box so I can try it out? Other forums to try?

TIA!! Jeff

[Jack Flesher]

Hi Jeff:

I have one, but may be a bit too far North for you in Silicon Valley...

It's a relatively recent acquisition for me, but FWIW, so far I like it -- a LOT.

[Jeff_6215]

Thanks for your quick reply, Jack. I will hit you up if I'm ever traveling in the area.

Glad to hear another positive review. I really love the design of the camera, and the whole modular system. I just need to see how the movements feel, and how rigid the standards are.

Jeff

[Scott Fleming]

Jeff contacted me off list and I emailed him this response:

I had the Toyo A-II previously but was not all that pleased with it. The VX is a great setup as long as you don't shoot big tele. It will handle a 360 standard or a 400 tele lens. It's great with WA. My 75mm is on a flat board and I get plenty of movement. I've been told it will take a 58mm on a flat board. The standard bellows is very flexible. I use a Toyo to Technica lens board adapter so all my lenses are on the small Technika boards. The camera is very compact and small when collapsed. Only problem is stiffness. The versatile and light collapsing rail on the camera has some flex in it. You have to be careful when doing long exposures. It's not sloppy or jiggley but has a tad of flex to is. A lot of my exposures are in the half minute range and I don't even bother to shoot in the wind. Wind would be a problem with this camera if shooting over 4 sec or so.

It's very fast to set up and easy to get focused. You need to see one before you jump in. It's an innovative design. You either love it or hate it. I got mine mint for $2200. I would still rather have an Arca Swiss but the one I want would be $5k.

* * * * *

Just in case anybody else out there is interested.

Jack,

What's your take on the flexing of the rail that I mention above ... since you have one?

[Jeff_6215]

Thanks for your reply, Scott. Glad you found this post, though I wanted to be sure to reach you, and so sent an email.

I don't use long lenses, so it's not an issue for me. 210 might be the longest, and even that would be focused pretty far out. In fact, a big plus for this camera is that it seems to me to be a good one to handle both 4x5 and 6x45 format digital backs. I figure I can use a 35 or 47mm digital lens, and get all the movements I'll ever need. Someone stop me if I'm misguided.

Too bad the rail isn't sturdier, but I can always use my Toyo G rail and block if the stability is needed. I love the interchangability of the whole Toyo system. What I am concerned with, though, is rigidity of the standards. If I grab the tops of the standards on my G, and gently bounce them inward and apart, they flex maybe 2mm. This is stiff enough on a heavy camera like that, but might be too much on the lightweight VX. On a Canham I looked at, it was about 3-4mm, and on a Technika, it was 0 in back and less than 1mm in front. I guess the VX would need the rail collapsed to make a fair comparison of the standards themselves, but how sturdy would you say they are? Any other cameras you can compare it to?

Thanks again guys,
Jeff

[Scott Fleming]

Hi again Jeff,

The standards are very steady against the force vector you describe. The movement that bothers me in this camera is vectored at 90 degrees to the rail. If you tap either standard at the top corner with the fingers of your hand, both standards will bounce back and forrth three or for times maybe three millimeters. It's a little mysterious where this flex comes from. It's a combination of the rail, the mount and my Kirk ballhead. Add the three together and they equal a fault. Though it bugs me it has never ruined a shot. I'd really be stuck though if I forgot my cable realease with this camera.

[Jack Flesher]

Hi Scott:

I had read that portion of your review before I bought mine and was thus wary of going with the VX125 in the first place. Fortunately my local camera store had (and still has) a display model on the shelf for me to look at before I bought.

For whatever reason I did not find any inordinate amounts of flex as you described in the store's sample, so I bought the used one I had found. When it arrived this was the first thing I tested and again, nothing bothersome. All I can figure is possibly yours was loose somewhere or perhaps I am not as critical as you.

On a side note, I think it was you who also remaked on the zero-detents being too agressive to allow small adjustments. Again, neither the store copy or mine are this way -- the detents are present and positive, but I can easily crank in minute amounts of tilt without any trouble while remaining partially within the detent's spring effect.

Perhaps both of these issues were addressed by Toyo with subsequent production runs of the camera?

~~~

Further comments, FWIW:

I find all the geared movements smooth and positive and both swing and tilt easy to implement. The knobs are all conveniently located and very easy to use even while wearing thin gloves -- a trait I relish with my extra large fingers and hands ;)

If I have a gripe with the VX125 it is the standard bellows/rail extension limitation of just over 300mm -- but at least I am comfortable with its rigidity fully extended. By contrast, my Technikardan could focus a 58XL and 450 Fuji C at infinity using the same bellows, but it was extremely flimsy so as to be near useless when extended for the 450.

Finally set-up. In short, I have never used a camera faster to set up in the field. The Toyo resides in my pack ready to go, with both end extensions and a lens mounted. I can have the camera on my tripod, extended, zeroed and ready to focus in under 30 seconds. Here is a shot of the camera as it rides in my f64 pack:

http://jack.cameraphile.org/albums/album08/f64_loaded_LF.jpg

[Scott Fleming]

Hi Jack,

Thanks for the response. I carry my camera pretty much as you do except that I don't keep the rail extensions on it as the 210 is the longest lens i use. Having only three lenses I have memorized the precise setting for zeroing each lens at more or less hyperfocal distance. The fact that the camera has three basic positions makes this easy. I'm ready to fine focus for most shots without ever looking at the gg. I have little notes tucked away for myself if I forget. ;-)

[Jack Flesher]

Good points Scott! I am not quite to that level of proficiency with my VX yet, but get pretty close out of the gate with my two main lenses -- I'm sure I'll get to your level of proficiency with more time.

One thing for sure, as users of this camera we seem to be in a fraternity of fairly limited membership ;)

[Jeff_6215]

Great posts, guys. Nice info.

Jack, not sure if I heard where you are from and thereby where this camera store with the one on display might be.

Just got done calling every pro shop in Southern California, and no one has one, even in used or rental =(

Sounds like I may have to jump in sight unseen. At least these cameras seem to be holding their value, in case I change my mind!

Thanks again,
Jeff

[Jack Flesher]

Jeff:

I am in Los Altos, CA and the store I referred to is Keeble and Shuchat Photography in neighboring Palo Alto.

[Jeff_6215]

Ah, nowhere near me. I will check them out if I'm ever in the bay area.

Thanks again,
Jeff

[Oren Grad]

Jeff, according to the listing on their website, MAC is supposed to be an exhibitor at the Pro Photo Expo in Pasadena in March. If you can wait that long, why not call them and see if they're planning to bring a VX125 demo unit out with them?

[Jeff_6215]

Nice idea Oren, though I hope to make a decision before then. But you know how things go...

Gee, I guess I could call MAC directly and ask if they have any reps in the area. That could be the winner.

Thanks for the idea!

Jeff

[bglick]

I had my VX telescoping rail machined on the ends, so I can easily add extension rails on both ends, allowing for approx 700mm of extension and only carrying to extra rails. This to me, represents an amazingly small, yet versatile and rugged geared field camera. My telescoping rail is amazingly stiff.... specially compared to most clam shell types with equal extension. I think Toyo missed the boat on this one....as if they had included these inserts into the telescoping rail, the camera could justify its price a bit better. The beauty is, I never have to remove the telescoping rail. Now, if I need 1000mm of extension, I abandon the telescoping rail to be safe and use 4 GX rails.

Warning.... once you get used to geared movements, its very hard to go back to non geared movements.... I also have a Toyo Field AII and Toyo 810MII, and they sure aren't the joy to use as the VX. In theory, it doesn't take better pictures, but a mercedez benz won't get you to your desitination any faster then a honda, yet they sell very well. The biggest drawback of the VX is for serious hardcore backpackers, as the rail design always takes more room then the clamshell design. Also, the longest extension, I think 300mm is shorter then other field cameras.

Overall, after 6 years, I would say the camera is truly wonderful and one of the most verstaile systems on the market. I have used mine with 55 mm lenses, as well as 1200 mm lenses. Both are easy to use.... Add the fact Toyo makes film holders and roll film backs which assures alignment within their systems, well, I appreciate all this.

[Scott Fleming]

Bill,

Good info. Thanks for posting. So I would suppose you are swapping bellows for those tele lenses? Are you using the standard long 4 x 5 bellows shown in the Toyo Catalogue put out by Mamiya America?

[Scott Fleming]

It just occured to me that I have one more little trick that might interest prospective and current VX owners. The tripod mount Toyo puts on these puppies looks like a standard Arca Swiss type (male side or plate). It's not. It's about a millimeter wider and will not slide into any of the QR clamps out there. Well being basically cheap I wanted to overcome this problem the easy way. It only required the removal of about 1/2mm of material from the Toyo mount ... on one side only. This would be the male aspect of the Arca Swiss style looking QR clamp and plate system. My Toyo plate now 'just' slides into my Kirk ballhead clamp and I get about 1/2 a turn on the knob to lock it down. I would have to remove another small amount to get it to work with my Acratech Ultimate Ballhead but don't plan on using that head with this camera anyway. This shaving of the aluminum Toyo plate was accomplished with a router employing a carborundum cutting/grinding head and simply flattening and leveling the ground down surface with aluminum oxide metal sanding paper (the red stuff) on an ordinary wood block.

[bglick]

Scott, tremendous work! Ya gotta tweak everything, huh!

yes, I gotta swap bellows.... first I use the long bellows from Toyo, I think that will take me to 600mm fl non tele lens....then for 800 & 1200mm, I add the intermediate standard and use both the long bellows and the bellows that comes with the VX. Quite a contraption, but considering that this one camera I can use my 55mm lens and my 1200mm lens, quite versatile indeed....

[Jeff_6215]

Well, guess what arrived today? A shiny, used, green VX-125 from Japan =) Very exciting! It is a beautiful camera. Amazing packaging and design. Heavier in my hand than I expected, but each standard is surprisingly light when pulled off the camera. All movements are very smooth and oily. I really like the feel of the detents- very positive clicks, but not too big. Seems easy enough to set a tilt at only halfway in the detent if needed.

Mine came with the quick-release shoe, which is by Stroboframe. Not a bad setup. Extra plates are only like $15 from B+H. I may make this my full-time quick-release system for all my cameras. Only gripe is that only 1/4 in. fittings are available. As light as this camera is, I feel that anything beyond a small 35 ought to be 3/8. Probably just in my head =S

Has anyone removed the tripod bushing under the mounting plate? Maybe a 3/8 under there? Didn't seem to budge with a penny or quarter, and it actually doesn't look like your standard 1/4 to 3/8 bushing. Maybe not worth the chance of stripping the head.

Couple small problems- no 25 mm extension pipes. Oh well, I can always go onto a big 450mm rail if I need to. The focus knobs were slipping a bit, but I found the lock-stud accesable by removing the rubber grip on the knob. All tight now.

The standards seem pretty rigid. The main problem with stiffness is in the rail, unfortuneatly. It's VERY stiff lengthwise, and I don't percieve any sagging at full extension, for example. But the thing twists. I'll try playing more with the standard G rail + block, but this is definatly a weak point. It's certainly the compromise of the camera to get the huge range of movements that a Linhof doesn't have, solid as it may be.

Now the big problem.

I'm taking things apart, the lensboard, bellows, etc., and then try to figure out how to get the back off. Um, off of where? The back and rear standard are one solid hunk of aluminum! *#&($(@&@&@&!!!!!! $*%%*(%!!! The entire point of the camera for me was that I thought I could pop the back off, and pop on a Flex-adapter and Phase One for commercial work. Not going to happen! Feeling sick, woozy...

Debating my options now. Arca is sounding tempting. I can still put my G rear standard on this camera, ugly and heavy as it may be. What would be ideal is to have the frame of the rear standard converted somehow- wonder if a front frame can fit in the rear standard, and if Toyo will even sell that alone? SK Grimes may come up with something. Or Arca? But, oh, what I went through to get this thing! Any ideas are welcome!

Jeff

[Jeff_6215]

Ah, forgot about the Graflock back! SKG ought to be able to come up with an adapter from that to the Flex-adapter. Feeling much better now =)

After a bit more playing with the camera today, yes, the standards are very stiff. On a standard G rail, they're about as stiff as the G standards. I weighed them out of curiosity, and the 250mm G rail and block is only about a pound heavier than the VX rail. So that's always a possibility when conditions necessitate. And everyone is right, the bellows is amazing. Nearly as useful at short focal lengths as a bag bellows. Though oddly enough, even if I wanted to use my bag bellows, it doesn't quite fit. The mounting flange is a bit different- good thing a knife is in the camera bag to whittle down the plastic when needed =S

So it's a fairly quirky, but very nice camera.

Jeff