print washers?

[gmed]

Im building a print washer. It'll be for 5-6 16x20
Ive looked at various washers and each one works relatively differently
some work by siphon action, some overflow and exit through an exit tube our outlet.

Im trying to see if you definitely need the siphon action for the washer to work due to the specific gravity of the fixer? does it need to suction from the bottom where the fixer settles or can it just overflow from top and drip down?

[Tin Can]

This will be interesting

but first get your iPhone off the bottom...


Im building a print washer. It'll be for 5-6 16x20
Ive looked at various washers and each one works relatively differently
some work by siphon action, some overflow and exit through an exit tube our outlet.

Im trying to see if you definitely need the siphon action for the washer to work due to the specific gravity of the fixer? does it need to iPhone from the bottom where the fixer settles or can it just overflow from top and drip down?

[gmed]

ha! thanks for catching that, ive only got one broken iPhone.

[Doremus Scudder]

The notion that fixer is heavier than water and settles to the bottom of the washer is a myth, propagated largely by Fred Picker to sell his print washers. Think about it; the fixer doesn't settle to the bottom of the fixer tray during a printing session does it? Nope, it stays stable as a solution the whole time.

Print washing, after the fixer is rinsed from the surface, proceeds by diffusion, which means that the fastest wash will happen when the paper is in contact with fresh water. If the fixer builds up in the wash water, it will slow the wash, which means that working on even and thorough (but not necessarily rapid) exchange of water is key.

So, when you design, keep in mind that the important thing is to have good water exchange over the entire volume; no dead spots in the corners or along one side. This means having multiple places for the water to exit as well as an even feed.

A small-volume washer might benefit from a siphon action fill-and-dump routine, ideally, one that could be manually activated at, say, two or three times a wash at the operator's discretion. A large-volume washer would waste too much water and take to long to fill.

If it were me, I'd design a washer with a drip-type feed that covered the entire top surface (e.g., a grid of tubing with holes, etc.) and a number of exits that draw water from the bottom of the washer and then up the sides and exiting at a point that would keep the washer full and the prints submerged when the water was shut off. The slots for the prints can be simple separators like nylon line or whatever. Prints may simply stick to large sheets of plex used as dividers, thereby preventing water from reaching one surface. Water needs to flow along both sides of the print. I'd also provide for a siphon drain somehow (I often dump my big washers halfway through the wash by simply using a length of tubing as a siphon).

A test for thorough water exchange is to add potassium permanganate to the water and see how long it takes to clear and if it persists in certain areas. Kodak's recommendation is a complete change of water every five minutes.

Whatever design you decide on, be ready to modify it as needed. You'll need to test some prints for washing efficiency with HT-2 as well as do water-exchange tests. I'd simply fix several sheets and then drop them in your washer. Yes, you'll have to use full-size sheets for this, but the peace of mind will be worth it later. Then, at regular intervals after about 30 minutes, you should pull a print from the washer and immerse it in a tray of HT-2 solution to check both the rate of washing and to see if the washing action is even. It could be that some areas of the print are fully washed, but others not.

If you identify an area of the washer that is not doing its job as well as other areas, then modifications would be in order.

Hope all this helps,

Doremus

[Willie]

Doremus,

Might try a vertical washer and leave the prints in for awhile and then do some testing to see what reality is on this one. The results may surprise you.

[gmed]

Thank you so much. this is the best tip ive seen by far. I appreciate it. that is what I thought about the fixer. I plan to use FT-4, which I believe is easily washed and diluted.

[Jim Noel]

My first and still my most efficient washer, I built of plywood from plans in Petersen's Photographic magazine. It was a fill and dump syphon. Where most syphon washers only dump a small amount, that one dumped all but about 2 inches of water in the bottom.. I made it for 11x14 prints, and it was 12 inches deep. Whenit dumped,it was obvious. % dumps were sufficient for a very effective clearing of salts. I wish I still had it,or at least the plans, but no luck there,.

[ic-racer]

Fixer at the bottom... if you dilute your concentrated stock solution with water like this...

https://mixthatdrink.com/how-to-pour-a-layered-cocktail/

[Luis-F-S]

I'd follow Zone VI's basic design anyhow. The 16x20 print washer is 27" long by 20" high by 11" wide. Its an out of sink washer with an overflow. Yours would not have to be that wide, space between Zone VI dividers is 1/2" O.C.. Here are some shots of the basic 8x10 washer:

205938205939 16x20 washer showing the horizontal stiffener 205940

The clear sides of the 16x20 are 1/2" plexi, the black ends are double 1/4" plexi. There is a 1/2"x 1.5" horizontal plexi stiffener that runs the full 27" length, 5" down from the top. If you made yours 23" clear horiz space with 1" at each end for the fill and dump areas, so say 26" long with an extra 1/2" at each end. If you only need 6 spacers, and you made them 1" O.C., that's 8" plus 1" for the sides, so say 9" in width. The Zone VI one holds more prints. Any specific questions, PM me. Good Luck!

[Olli]

During my years in science lab I have made hundreds of density gradients by pipetting salt solutions of decreasing concentrations (KBr) on top of each other in centrifuge tubes. It had to be done very carefully not to mix them totally. Any flow or movement would destoy the formation of the gradient. It's practically impossible to get any spontaneous gradient formation even in undisturbated salt solutions, not to mention the effect of any flow or mixing. In print washing the concentration difference of thiosulphate in the print and the surrounding water determines the rate of diffusion and water replacement keeps it going.

[MrFujicaman]

My first and still my most efficient washer, I built of plywood from plans in Petersen's Photographic magazine. It was a fill and dump syphon. Where most syphon washers only dump a small amount, that one dumped all but about 2 inches of water in the bottom.. I made it for 11x14 prints, and it was 12 inches deep. Whenit dumped,it was obvious. % dumps were sufficient for a very effective clearing of salts. I wish I still had it,or at least the plans, but no luck there,.

Jim, was that the one Perry Yob made of fiberglassed cardboard?

[Jim Noel]

I don't think so. I made mine long before I heard of Yob.

[Hans Berkhout]

That’s Parry Yob, he wrote in the 70’s.
I use his darkroom safe light with dimmer switch, very good.
You can find him in abe books

[Tin Can]

These Rosy Products Stainless Steel washers may be no longer made

http://www.khbphotografix.com/arkay/PrintWashers.htm

I have the top one, bought it for $10 last decade

Water comes in bottom to plenum of holes that feed water between each partition, then simply draining off a top side set of holes.

It is very gentle, I also use it for 11X14 negs as doesn't scratch even X-Ray

[Luis-F-S]

Im building a print washer. It'll be for 5-6 16x20

Are you still building this? How's it coming? Where are you located? L

[Mark Sampson]

I have the same print washer Tin Can mentions. I bought it in the late 1980s under the "Darkroom Aids" (a long-gone Chicago photo store) brand. It had been recommended (and tested) by my teacher David Vestal... it has worked well for me for thirty years. When I started making 16x20s I bought a Versalab washer, that worked well too; a slightly different design though.

[HMG]

These Rosy Products Stainless Steel washers may be no longer made

http://www.khbphotografix.com/arkay/PrintWashers.htm

I have the top one, bought it for $10 last decade

Water comes in bottom to plenum of holes that feed water between each partition, then simply draining off a top side set of holes.

It is very gentle, I also use it for 11X14 negs as doesn't scratch even X-Ray


I have that one as well. Note that there is a small hole at the bottom to drain the concentrated fixer - whether real or imagined. Because of that and the drains at the top, it has to be used in a sink. On the plus side, it's relatively compact.

[Steve Goldstein]

I think that hole at the bottom is more practical than serving Fred Picker's hallucinations. It allows the water to drain when you're done using the washer, no need to tip it out.

I sure wish I could find one of these at a reasonable price.

[Chuck Pere]

If you haven't read them you might want to check out this article: http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296
I believe there is also a 2nd part.

[Tin Can]

Just read it

My wash process will change

I think the use of Jargon is always a mistake, 'Hypo' I particularly don't like. Writers should use, '2% solution of sodium sulphite' all day long

Thanks for the link!


If you haven't read them you might want to check out this article: http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296
I believe there is also a 2nd part.

[interneg]

Hypo-clear is really a non negotiable in Scotland - the tap water is so soft that it is quite essential with FB prints in my experience.

[Ian Gordon Bilson]

Hypo-clear is really a non negotiable in Scotland - the tap water is so soft that it is quite essential with FB prints in my experience.

Is that a result of peat in the water ? Staining ?

[Duolab123]

I have 3 acrylic print washers. Hey if the price is right I'll buy anything. My most useful version is a 8x10/11×14 unit Dunwright and Vogel. I have a nice mag drive pump from a scrapped Noritsu processor. After a quick tray rinse off, a couple minutes, I put the prints in the full washer and just circulate the water, I do this 3 times. I have a syphon and drain combo I can empty the washer in about 90 seconds, then I use a couple of clean 3 gallon plastic pails (that I've already filled with water) pour them in takes about 30 seconds and turn the pump back on.

To get the water velocity that I get with the pump, I would need to run very high flow rates, a total waste of water. For big prints I would consider some kind of a rocking print washer, build a tray rocker and use a big Paterson tray. It's not rocket science to figure out that when the concentration of fixer in a couple to half dozen prints EQUALS ( comes to equilibrium ) with 5 gallons of water, by time, and agitation. With a couple of total changes of water you're good.

For Fixer to lay on the bottom, you would to add, with care, concentrated rapid fix. The fixer being heavier than water is a old marketing ploy. As long as you have adequate recirculation you will have a solution of uniform concentration.

[Duolab123]

Hypo-clear is really a non negotiable in Scotland - the tap water is so soft that it is quite essential with FB prints in my experience.

This is a excellent point, I live in an area with hard water , calcium. My house uses a whole house water softener that uses ion exchange resin to exchange sodium for calcium. The result is impossible to use for mixing developer.

The outdoor sill cock (faucets ) use hard water from the piping before the softener. I've been meaning to plumb in a line, I probably won't ever get to it.

With all the lovely granite and the like in Scotland it's probably low in minerals.

[Tin Can]

How does Hypo Clearing Agent Work? What's the Chemistry?

per PE

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/how-does-hypo-clearing-agent-work-whats-the-chemistry.169014/

[HMG]

This is a excellent point, I live in an area with hard water , calcium. My house uses a whole house water softener that uses ion exchange resin to exchange sodium for calcium. The result is impossible to use for mixing developer.

The outdoor sill cock (faucets ) use hard water from the piping before the softener. I've been meaning to plumb in a line, I probably won't ever get to it.

With all the lovely granite and the like in Scotland it's probably low in minerals.


Can you expand on this? I, like many, have hard well water and use a ion exchange water softener. I regularly use softened water for mixing developers. And for print washing as well.

[Kevin Crisp]

In defense of Fred, if you take still tap water in a clear beaker, and drop in one drop of fixer, the ball of fixer will stay more or less intact and sink down to the bottom and spread. Now any turbulence in the water would, of course, make that tendency completely unimportant. Once turned on, whether the overflow exits top or bottom it wouldn't matter at all.

[Doremus Scudder]

Can you expand on this? I, like many, have hard well water and use a ion exchange water softener. I regularly use softened water for mixing developers. And for print washing as well.

I, too, used softened water for mixing all my photo chemicals except for the final rinse in wetting agent, which I mixed with distilled water, and had fine results. Without the final (rather long) treatment in the distilled water/wetting agent, salt crystals would form on the surface of the negatives when drying. Prints were alright in this regard as long as I squeegeed the excess water from them. All that was years ago when I lived in San Antonio, which draws its water from wells drilled in the limestone bedrock; close to the hardest tap water on earth I would imagine.

I don't see why the sodium content of softened water would negatively affect developer except possibly to alter the developing time a tiny, tiny bit. I certainly had no problem with HC-110 and D-76 then. For stop and fix, the sodium should do just about nothing...

For negative and print washing, the wash times may be a bit longer with softened water, but again, only by a negligible amount.

Best,

Doremus

[Doremus Scudder]

@ OP,

I would think you should be able to source at least sodium sulfite in Canada for not too much. It's used rather extensively in wine- and beer making as well as for many other industrial purposes. Then all you'd need would be a small bottle (500g or so) of sodium bisulfite/metabisulfite and you could mix your own wash aid easily.

I use one Tablespoon of sulfite plus a pinch of bisulfite per liter. EZPZ and just as good as Hypo Clear as long as your tap water is not too hard. If your water is really hard, then you may need the EDTA.

Best,

Doremus

[Duolab123]

Can you expand on this? I, like many, have hard well water and use a ion exchange water softener. I regularly use softened water for mixing developers. And for print washing as well.

It's got more to do with the amount of minerals dissolved in the tap water (TDS) . The town I grew up in, Cedar Rapids, IA I used tap water for everything, no problems. Color, black and white, few drops of photo-flo, everything good. I moved out of town into a development, 100 houses more or less, everyone had a softener, including my house, went to mix XTOL, disaster. There was so much sodium carbonate in the soft water, I couldn't even dissolve the XTOL. So I tried the water before the softener, there was so much Calcium carbonate in the water same result. My solution was an RO system, I think it removes about 90-95% of ionic substances, there's a couple carbon filters too, but they're there for taste and any wierd little bits of organics.

This part of Iowa has limestone quarries that produce Calcium Carbonate so pure it's used for toothpaste and food additives, 99% or better.

Where we live it's a ancient sea bed and limestone is several hundred feet thick, crazy. My wife is from New York, the water there is so free of minerals, when she moved out here she was shocked. Couldn't drink the water, couldn't get her hair shampoo too work right.

I have my current whole house water softener set at the minimum softening level. Otherwise there's so damn much sodium carbonate in the water it's slippery!!!

My experience, YMMV

[Duolab123]

I, too, used softened water for mixing all my photo chemicals except for the final rinse in wetting agent, which I mixed with distilled water, and had fine results. Without the final (rather long) treatment in the distilled water/wetting agent, salt crystals would form on the surface of the negatives when drying. Prints were alright in this regard as long as I squeegeed the excess water from them. All that was years ago when I lived in San Antonio, which draws its water from wells drilled in the limestone bedrock; close to the hardest tap water on earth I would imagine.

I don't see why the sodium content of softened water would negatively affect developer except possibly to alter the developing time a tiny, tiny bit. I certainly had no problem with HC-110 and D-76 then. For stop and fix, the sodium should do just about nothing...

For negative and print washing, the wash times may be a bit longer with softened water, but again, only by a negligible amount.

Best,

Doremus

It's not sodium it's the sodium carbonate. Bigger cities have much better water treatment facilities. In Iowa water quality varies dramatically from town to town. Depends on how much the water is "purified "

[interneg]

Is that a result of peat in the water ? Staining ?

No, it's because of the low levels of calcium carbonate, magnesium etc in the water.


With all the lovely granite and the like in Scotland it's probably low in minerals.

The granite's largely only in one corner of the country (watch out for the radon gas) but elsewhere there's a lot of sandstone etc - our tap water in Glasgow comes from Loch Katrine.

[Duolab123]

No, it's because of the low levels of calcium carbonate, magnesium etc in the water.



The granite's largely only in one corner of the country (watch out for the radon gas) but elsewhere there's a lot of sandstone etc - our tap water in Glasgow comes from Loch Katrine.

We have very high levels of radon in the northeast corner of the state of Iowa. First Europeans were attracted to the area to mine Lead. When Uranium decays you get Lead and Radon, or so I've been told.