first time poster's impression

[Frank Petronio]

A fellow called me from LA yesterday full of questions about Arca-Swiss cameras. I suggested that he start reading this forum because it was so friendly and helpful.

Ouch!

[Robert McClure]

Frank,

I can certainly agree with you that there are many participants who seem to have made the decision to be kind, supportive, and helpful toward others on this forum.

But the relative anonymity which the forum affords may encourage some to make statements and express attitudes which they might not make and express if face to face.

A psychologist once suggested that if drivers were required to post their names on their vehicles' license plates they might be more courteous. Which might owe to increased driver accountability. (Granted, forum posters are not literally anonymous.)

When sitting alone at the computer, I sometimes feel like a kind of armchair commando. (And I know very little compared to some of the forum participants.) Leonardo DiCaprio perched himself at the bow of the Titanic and shouted triumphantly, "I'm king of the world!"

I can imagine how some posters, when perched at their computers, feel like 12-year-olds with B-B guns.

It's a great country!

[Tim Hyde]

I have been participating in this forum for about a year and following it for a couple. I have to say that of the numerous forums I participate in or follow (covering several disciplines), this one is the "hottest." All fora have their share of petulants and curmudgeons and road ragers, but this one seems to take the cake. Such a shame too, because it also dense with useful infomation.

And its quite ironic. Have you ever seen LF photographers bunched up? We are hardly a prepossessing lot. Most of us look like we would help somebody's aunt across the intersection, bearded and often slight, like so many scholastic anchorites. We are decidedly not the class of folk one would expect to see in a bar fight or riding Harleys. Maybe that's the answer. Maybe in the safety of cyberspace, some of us (and it's all-too-frequently the same people) sprout machismo.

When that phenomenon gets overlaid with what appears to be a couple of ongoing blood feuds, we have a...well, hot zone, which is this board. It's my favorite forum notwithstanding, and maybe that says something about me. Happy New Year.

[Joseph O'Neil]

About 2-3 years ago, there was a tv commercial, made for the Super Bowl, about the joys of herding cats. It was totally tounge in cheek, but I thought to myself, yep, that's a good way to describe any gathering/grouping of LF shooters.
:)

joe

[Kirk Gittings]

Frank,

I personally know quite a few entry level people, a couple of experienced people and a couple of what could only be called "famous artists" types, who follow this forum but will not participate, largely because of the lack of civility.

[Dan Jolicoeur]

Amen!

[Frank Petronio]

It's not like I've never been banned, swore online, or made my share of rude remarks to Simmons or Wisner or whomever. But it's more that running up 100 back and forth brickbats and arguing about 1/1000 of a mm is kind of crazy...

[John W. Randall]

Kirk Gittings nailed it. Please make that lack of civility go away. Please.

Best regards,

[Ted Harris]

I'll add to waht Kirk said. Some fo the "famous artists" who follow the forum are household names to us and to a wide range of art lovers beyodn us. You'd be surprised. Some of them used to participate once-in-a-while. If we get backto the sort of civilitywe had a few years go they might just come out of hiding. To me, without a doubt this is the finest photography forum on the 'net. Let's keepit tht way,let's make it better.

I wouldlove to see this forum echo the sorts of forums I remember from the kinder gentler days of the internet some 25 years ago when only a few scientists were posting. I cannot remember a flame war in those days.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

In a small community where passions run deep, there are bound to be a few flame ups, we are seeing this on a different thread on the forum right now.

It would be nice if we could all put the egos aside and support one another regardless of skill level or fame.

By and large, the majority of the posts I read here are supportive, interesting and some even fun. I like the idea that there are beginners, experienced and famous ( some maybe even infamous) contributors here. Each person, regardless of skill level, has a contribution to make and should be respected.

What is the Golden Rule - " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" ? I think this would be worth remembering. We cannot change people ,however, peer pressure can help keep things in balance.

As members of the forum we have a responsibility to not support attacks on others and we need to assist the moderators in removing threads which are damaging and contributors who do not wish to play by the rules of respect.

We are ALL owners of this site and should understand we have a responsibility. I am sorry if the person just starting out that Frank mentions got a bad impression, that does not help us as a group.

I agree with Kirk, we need more civility ( not only on this forum but in society in general - that is a greater issue of course). While I am not the most knowledgeable person with regards to technical issues, I hope that in some way my posts are helpful and supportive. And I hope the majority of us will continue to be a positive force on the forum and continue to set an example the "bad eggs" won't be able to ingnore.

Thanks everyone,

[Jerry Cunningham]

As a beginner I can say that this forum has been invaluable. Without the information I have received here I would be dead in the water. Looking back, some of my questions were stupid. However, every question has been answered. It is clear that some people don't like each other. The wise man usually avoids people with whom he has a basic conflict. Who benefits by personal attacks? The LF world is very small. It would be a shame if we destroyed each other. It is possible to give constructive criticism in a civil manner. It is also possible to disagree without name calling. It takes a mature person to walk away from a name calling situation. Hopefully I can be that mature and so can others.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Jerry -

There are no stupid questions. :-)

[Capocheny]

I've been participating on this forum for the past few years now and have learned a tremendous amount from some of the members. In my time here I have to say that I've NOT noticed a lot of animosity between its members... with the exception of one that was recently removed.

[It could be that I've NOT noticed those more vexacious members because I CHOOSE to ignore them... that's probably the best way of dealing with these situations. Someone once said, "Don't throw a bone at the growling dog!" :) Makes sense to me... why feed wood to a ravaging fire?]

Sure, there have been many postings that have had disagreements but, for the most part, they've been handled in a relatively civilized manner. Opinions are exactly that... and if we took all those opinions that were different from ours to heart, we'd ALL be in big trouble.

That said, IMHO, most of the folks here have been absolutely terrific and it would be an honor to meet some of them in the future! :)

Jerry... you hit the nail on the head and I couldn't agree with you more!

Peace!

Cheers

[William Mortensen]

I find this forum quite wonderful, and really appreciate the knowledge, opinions, and philosophies here. I'm hardly a beginner, but quickly confess that there are large gaps in my knowledge and experience. And I can't think of anyone who posts here that I wouldn't enjoy spending an evening with talking about and looking at photographs.

The incivility is sad to see, and damages people on both sides. I hate to think Steve might lose subscribers over a debate turned sour, and that I may not see Jorge's images published because of the same dispute. Both points of view have merit, (discussing and understanding technical issues in detail versus not letting them overwhelm the new photographer or the aesthetic process), and I'd really enjoy that debate without the animosity.

A history of conflict is hard to put behind, but it is worth making a conscious effort to do so.

[Bruce Watson]

I have to say that I'm more or less with Henry C.

There are plenty of places on the 'net where the "civility index" is a lot lower than here. A *lot* lower. I'm thinking of the rec.photo news groups for instance.

What we have here is a lively discourse by and for intelligent people committed to, and passionate about, large format photography. All done by text postings. I would be shocked if there were no misunderstandings just due to the posting format (emails are notorious for stripping out so many conversational clues - no expressions, no verbal tones, no body language...).

I'd be even more shocked if there weren't a fair number of disagreements. Disagreements help increase the speed of knowledge transfer. If you can't disagree, and point out logic flaws and violations of the laws of physics, what does a forum like this become???

Now we could all be more civil. But with out the visual, aural, and posture cues, this is pretty difficult. I'm pleased that we do as well as we do actually. I always try to do better anyway. I just wish I could be 100%, but that's a lot to ask of a curmudgeon ;-)

[Eric Rose]

This is a pretty good forum as they go. I do like the ignore feature APUG has though. If a certain member just seems to rub you the wrong way, you put him/her into your ignore list and you don't see any of their posts ever again. Even with that capability, I only have 2 people in my ignore list so far.

[Vijay Nebhrajani]

Please make that lack of civility go away. Please.

There is a very simple way to do that - be civil yourself, and completely ignore anyone who is not. Nothing else works; you can't make 'rules' to 'enforce' civility.

[Ron McElroy]

This is an interesting topic Frank. I've been following this forum since I discovered it on the old Greenspun servers. At the time it helped to revive picture making after a period of self doubt. I don't know if the current "discussions" would of done that.

[paulr]

"We are decidedly not the class of folk one would expect to see in a bar fight or riding Harleys. Maybe that's the answer."

we might need a better outlet ... future large format get-togethers could include a ring for bareknuckle brawling. we could settle some of the long-standing disputes mano a mano.

fighters wouldn't even have to make it personal. you could fight on behalf of a phtographer, process, or even an esthetic movement. imagine Ansel vs. Andreas Gursky ... or Formal Modernism vs. Post Structuralism.

it would be cathartic just to watch. and you might make a few extra bucks if you bet well.

[John Kasaian]

I've noticed a bit more of the acidic stuff floatng about lately, but on the whole I think this is the best LF forum going considering the RS&KOI/N (Ratio of Sincerely & Kindly Offered Information to Nonsense).

Defending One's position on a topic is one thing----the passion of the subject demands it, but degrading name calling is rude and childish( ---not to mention that it is unimaginative!)

Photo.net, last time I looked, I found unappealing because of all the flames and APUG, while certainly a grand site, doesn't have nearly the number of posts/exchange of ideas--- at least on the LF forum,---as this one, especially in areas I find most interesting (though many 'experts' I've come to respect seem to have partially migrated over)

Still, this is where it's "at" and many knowlegeable people kindly (and gently) offer thier advice and experience for us new folks. I know this site has helped me A LOT. I can't imagine any other place I'd rather hang out (except maybe over Mt Shasta in a Cessna with a handheld LF....or the Hoover Wilderness with my long eared four legged tripod caddy...or in the snow with a Lowepack full of 8x10 holders...or Bolsa Chica at night when the bonfires seem to go on forever in orderly procession down the beach---upside down and backwards on the gg of course...or ....?)

[Capocheny]

"... offer thier advice and experience for us new folks."

John,

LOL: You're kidding right? :) You're one of the guys I was talking about in my comment above! :)

I've learned a great deal from you and if you're one of the "new folks" here... God only knows who the "oldies" are! :)

Any time you're in my neck of the woods... I'll bring the wine! :)

Cheers