Cable release thread

[JimboWalker]

I have a cable release thread on a Copal No. 1 shutter that is nearly stripped. It can still hold a cable release, but the threads a little "wallerd" out. Any hints on re tapping or replacing the receiver on the shutter? I am showing the part in question.

[Bob Salomon]

Most repair shops can supply a replacement socket. Just contact some. Nippon, Precision, Pro Camera, Laflex are some places to start.

[JimboWalker]

Can I replace myself without taking shutter apart? Of course, this mechanism reaches inside to activate something.

[Dan Fromm]

Look at the nice picture you posted. The block that the release screws into is held to the side of the shutter's body by two screws. You want to replace it, or have it replaced. You don't want to do anything to the lever the end of the release pushes.

[JimboWalker]

YES!! It is not connected as a unit! I can replace this part myself. Now I need to find one. Any chance to re tap what I have?

[Richard Wasserman]

I had a similar problem and used Red Loctite to attach a flexible release extension. This was about 8 years ago and it still works perfectly.

[Bob Salomon]

Can I replace myself without taking shutter apart? Of course, this mechanism reaches inside to activate something.

Easy, just remove the two screws, throw the stripped socket out and use the two screws to screw the new socket onto the shutter.

[LabRat]

There are no tapered taps to re-thread them...

Steve K

[JimboWalker]

What tap size should I use? I think I should try that first. I have a feeling this part is a pain to find in perfect shape.

[Dan Fromm]

What tap size should I use? I think I should try that first. I have a feeling this part is a pain to find in perfect shape.

1) see post #8 above.

2) see post #2 above.

3) see post #6 above.

[Greg]

Did this once to a worn female thread in the block of a VW air cooled engine where the oxygen sensor (if I remember correctly) screwed in: Clean out the inside of the worn threads with a degreasing fluid, and then keep cleaning it many times over with alcohol till it is very, very clean and dry. Get an expendable old shutter release cord with good threads on it. Fill the worn threads with J B WELD. Put a generous coating of Cutting and Tapping fluid on to the threaded end of a shutter release cord. As soon as the J B WELD begins to set, carefully screw in the threaded end. After the J B WELD dries thoroughly (I waited 24 hours back when). Now screw out the threaded end of the shutter release cord. It worked on my VW engine years ago, and I was able to screw in a new oxygen sensor. Will it work on a worn small shutter release socket? Can't say, but I'd give it a try. May work as a temporary fix.

[Tin Can]

and the tap set is still sold for $4

I have one or 2

Jim Jones had the answer in 2015

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?122225-cable-shutter-release-Speed-Graphic&p=1242791&viewfull=1#post1242791

[Bob Salomon]

Did this once to a worn female thread in the block of a VW air cooled engine where the oxygen sensor (if I remember correctly) screwed in: Clean out the inside of the worn threads with a degreasing fluid, and then keep cleaning it many times over with alcohol till it is very, very clean and dry. Get an expendable old shutter release cord with good threads on it. Fill the worn threads with J B WELD. Put a generous coating of Cutting and Tapping fluid on to the threaded end of a shutter release cord. As soon as the J B WELD begins to set, carefully screw in the threaded end. After the J B WELD dries thoroughly (I waited 24 hours back when). Now screw out the threaded end of the shutter release cord. It worked on my VW engine years ago, and I was able to screw in a new oxygen sensor. Will it work on a worn small shutter release socket? Can't say, but I'd give it a try. May work as a temporary fix.

And hope your cable release doesn’t break.

[Drew Wiley]

You'll need a little jeweler's screwdriver to remove and replace the threaded piece. Just be careful to put the tiny screws in a small container during the procedure and not to drop them.

[grat]

What tap size should I use? I think I should try that first. I have a feeling this part is a pain to find in perfect shape.

Well, if you don't look, you'll never find one.

Since there are numerous people online who are refurbishing copal shutters, it should be nigh trivial to find.

[David Lindquist]

Thinking about it these taps must exist somewhere. After all shutter release buttons on digital and film cameras still have to be tapped for cable releases. And there is the Linhof nipple, 041066, which screws on the tip of the cable release for use with their cable release Quicksocket.

If you go here and scroll down to the last page:
https://www.rebell-tools.de/pdf/Rebell%20Kapitel%2017.pdf#page=8
Towards the bottom is the line:
"MABO-HSS für Drahtauslöser-Gewinde sind ab Lager lieferbar. Preis auf Anfrage,"

Running this through google translate we get;
"MABO-HSS for wire release threads are available from stock. Price on request."

"MABO" refers to machine tap, a tap suitable for power tapping as with a tapping head or on a CNC machining center or an automatic screw machine. "HSS" is "high speed steel", the stuff of which metal cutting bits are commonly made.

I recall some time ago on the forum formerly known as apug there was a long discussion about these taps and Rebell-Tools was mentioned. Here my recollection gets hazier but no one ever seemed to actually manage to obtain one of these. Don't know if it was that Rebell didn't sell to the general public, required a large minimum order or what. Probably fair to say that while these taps exist, they are not readily available.

And now I see some of this, such as Rebell-Tools and the difficulty of obtaining these was also covered in 2015 per Randy's post #12.

David

[Tin Can]

To simplify buy here

https://drillsandcutters.com/5-44-carbon-steel-hand-tap-set/?gclid=CIvT7bzytcUCFVg8gQodua0AGg

[Havoc]

To simplify buy here

https://drillsandcutters.com/5-44-carbon-steel-hand-tap-set/?gclid=CIvT7bzytcUCFVg8gQodua0AGg

That's a straight thread, not a tapered one.

[John Layton]

Should have used blue locktite (not red!) for that flexible extension - because when that extension fails...you just might need to apply a little heat to get it undone! (ask me how I know!)

Best way to keep those thread-blocks from ever stripping is to just get a really good cable release (I like the 20 inch cloth covered ones by Pentax), screw it in firmly, and never remove it! A long(ish) cable release will usually wrap nicely about a lens and loop under itself to secure while stored.

[Tin Can]

Yes it is

Jim Jones specified it in 2015 and I believe he has very good experience

ymmv

I did buy 2 sets


That's a straight thread, not a tapered one.

[Richard Wasserman]

John you’re probably correct, but the little bottle of red was sitting on the shelf waving it’s arms saying “use me, use me!”

[John Layton]

Ha! In our house...its usually the big bottle of red sitting on the shelf and waving its arms, saying "drink me, drink me!"

[Richard Wasserman]

Ha! In our house...its usually the big bottle of red sitting on the shelf and waving its arms, saying "drink me, drink me!"

Thanks I needed a laugh this morning! I was reading the news...

[Tin Can]

Horseman solved the problem long ago, but also made a second problem as the special cable is rare

Cable release for Horseman 980 (https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/cable-release-for-horseman-980.81214/)

[Sanford]

You can purchase a replacement socket at Linhof Studio

[Bob Salomon]

You can purchase a replacement socket at Linhof Studio

Be faster and cheaper to just buy one from most camera repairmen in the USA if he lives here then importing one from the UK.

[Bob Salomon]

You can purchase a replacement socket at Linhof Studio

Be faster and cheaper to just buy one from most camera repairmen in the USA if he lives here then importing one from the UK.

[RichSBV]

For those interested.. On my manuals page at:
http://www.southbristolviews.com/pics/Graphic/graphicmanuals.html
near the bottom of the page is a pic of the official thread specs for both male and female threads.

Many years ago, I contacted several custom tap manufacturers and absolutely no-one replied to my request to create a tap... If someone knowns someone or knows a tap maker who can create such a thing, please let me (and everyone else) know :)

[Conrad . Marvin]

I bought a replacement part for a copal shutter from SK Grimes several years ago. Even replaced one missing screw. I also found that when I needed to make an adapter for a recessed lensboard a 5-48 tap worked the best because it was the same number of threads per inch as a cable release even though the cable release is tapered and the adapter is not. However, that being said a 5-48 tap is not easy to find. Maybe MSC Direct or even eBay. The drill size I don’t remember....maybe #38.

[Tin Can]

https://www.google.com/search?q=5-48+tap&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS850US850&oq=5-48+tap&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Conrad . Marvin]

Wow, Home Depot....and plug style at that!

[JimboWalker]

OK. Which thread tap size is correct? 5-44 or 5-48? I have already ordered a 5-44 and have not received yet. I guess I'l do a test tap in a scrap piece of aluminum and check.

[David Lindquist]

Neither one is "correct " for the Copal shutter's cable release socket but the 5-48 will be closer.

Looking further in to this via google I found the assertion more than once that the Copal shutter may/usually/mostly has a straight rather than tapered thread cable release socket. Looking at a couple of my Copal shutters, this seems to be the case. Googling Copal shutter dimensions brings up drawings showing the cable release socket thread has a major diameter of 3.2 mm with a pitch of 0.5 mm. I have not been able to find an M3.2 x 0.5 tap. A pitch of 0.5 mm is very close to 50 threads per inch, 3.2 mm equals .126 inches. A number 5 machine screw has a major diameter of .125 inches. So the diameter is close and the pitch will be off a bit. I DON'T KNOW IF THIS WILL WORK OR NOT. (Sorry for the caps). May be worth a try since spares are apparently still available.

Now if you could find a 5-50 tap...

David

[Conrad . Marvin]

Your 5-44 will probably grab just fine but checking with a scrap of aluminum is a good idea. Also experiment with a chamfering tool on the beginning of the hole so that the cable release will go in straight . Good luck!

[Conrad . Marvin]

The difference between a .5 mm thread and a 48tpi thread is about .001” from peak to peak. 44tpi Will add .002” . A taper going into a straight thread doesn’t need to mesh perfectly as it will engage in only a couple of threads at most. Give it a try and see if you can make it work.

[RichSBV]

Well, since everyone is now talking about the straight thread and not the tapered one, here's the specs for the staight shutter release threads. I'm trying to attach it here because this is not up on my site yet...

205675

[Steve Goldstein]

FWIW, McMaster-Carr sell JIS threading taps in addition to standard 3mm x 0.5mm metric taps. No 5-48 taps that I could find, though.

https://www.mcmaster.com/taps/jis-thread-taps/

[Tin Can]

Cannot read the specs on my 24" monitor

Would you please post them in text

Thank you


Well, since everyone is now talking about the straight thread and not the tapered one, here's the specs for the staight shutter release threads. I'm trying to attach it here because this is not up on my site yet...

205675

[grat]

Cannot read the specs on my 24" monitor

Would you please post them in text

Thank you

I started to make a snarky comment, and realized I can't read the numbers either. The source resolution is just too low.

[Jim Jones]

205692
Here it is again, rescanned from my copy of the original source.

[Bob Salomon]

You realize that in the 70 years since this standard was written cable release sockets may have changed?

[Tin Can]

Maybe Bob, but I seem to be able to use most cables with most shutters

and many of us have pre 1950 shutters

[David Lindquist]

205692
Here it is again, rescanned from my copy of the original source.

Similar dimensioned drawings can be found in "Screw-Thread Standards for Federal Services 1957 Part III" available here: https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/hb/nbshandbook28supp1957pt3.pdf
See page 45. This is described as "...with straight (American) thread"

You'll also see the "taper (European) thread" Its metric dimensions have been converted to inches, in particular its screw thread pitch is given as 50 threads per inch instead of 0.5 mm.
David

[David Lindquist]

And furthermore as a practical matter I have a cable release that I think is of the "American" pattern. It looks like a straight thread; length of thread is about as shown above. Using a leaf type thread gage, its pitch is 44 threads per inch (metric thread gage, pitch 0.5 mm is not a good fit). Wish I remembered where this came from, it looks pretty new. It will screw in to the shutter on my very late 210 mm Apo-Sironar-S rather better than I would have expected, certainly well enough to trip the shutter.

For the sake of completeness a Linhof brand cable release (taper tip, 0.5 mm pitch of course) will screw in to the No. 3 Ilex Acme shutter for my 1964 8 1/2 inch Commercial Ektar and will trip it.
David

[JimboWalker]

Thanks for this crazy amount of info! I still have not received my taps yet. I will run test with a piece of aluminum first and let you know results.

[Tin Can]

Small and big taps break easily

Test on steel or whatever you are tapping

I have several sets of broken tap removers that are also broken

I have sent work to guys like this Broken Tap Removal by Metal Disintegration Machine (MDM) (https://youtu.be/YbeKxFBZrF8)

[RichSBV]

Sorry, I didn't want to upload a huge scan. I did test and it works fine if you download the image and view with an image editor/viewer or it prints out full page size just fine. Next time I'll just do a huge scan... And it's been uploaded as a larger scan already so...

The straight specs are actually pretty worthless as the only thing that matters is the 5-44 tap size...



Cannot read the specs on my 24" monitor

Would you please post them in text

Thank you

[RichSBV]

Very interesting book with lots of good info. Thanks for that link!


Similar dimensioned drawings can be found in "Screw-Thread Standards for Federal Services 1957 Part III" available here: https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/hb/nbshandbook28supp1957pt3.pdf
See page 45. This is described as "...with straight (American) thread"

You'll also see the "taper (European) thread" Its metric dimensions have been converted to inches, in particular its screw thread pitch is given as 50 threads per inch instead of 0.5 mm.
David

[David Lindquist]

Very interesting book with lots of good info. Thanks for that link!

You are very welcome. I came across a related document dated 1985 "FED-STD-H28_18A" dealing only with photographic equipment related screw threads and not so detailed as this older version. It did say that it no longer contained a description of the straight ("American") shutter release thread as that standard had been withdrawn 3 Mar 1976.

It does describe the tapered thread version, the "European" one. But now this is described in metric units including the pitch being 0.5 mm as opposed to 50 threads per inch in the 1957 document.
David

[RichSBV]

Thanks yet again! I searched and found that document and the version 'C'. I then searched for the 'ANSI PH3.107' document it references but could not find a free copy... Ah-well, not worth $25 for me :p


You are very welcome. I came across a related document dated 1985 "FED-STD-H28_18A" dealing only with photographic equipment related screw threads and not so detailed as this older version. It did say that it no longer contained a description of the straight ("American") shutter release thread as that standard had been withdrawn 3 Mar 1976.

It does describe the tapered thread version, the "European" one. But now this is described in metric units including the pitch being 0.5 mm as opposed to 50 threads per inch in the 1957 document.
David

[David Lindquist]

Thanks yet again! I searched and found that document and the version 'C'. I then searched for the 'ANSI PH3.107' document it references but could not find a free copy... Ah-well, not worth $25 for me :p
Yes I went looking for versions of "ANSI PH3.107" too. At some point it was re-named IT3.107 and was described as "Reaffirmed 1995" and "Not Active". Guessing this is the last iteration of the U.S. standard. It is available for $25 and I ordered a hard copy.

Have a hunch this went "inactive" because there is the current ISO standard which is available here: https://www.iso.org/standard/12247.html
ISO is after all International Standards Organization and you'll see that this standard was approved by the appropriate US body, (ANSI) so not much sense in the US maintaining what's basically a duplicate standard. Pricier at 38 Swiss francs or about $40.

These standards can seem kind of pricey for what they are physically, just a few pages. Free copies can be hard to find though sometimes the essential information can be gleaned from other sources, like the federal standards cited above. I suppose the cost does help support the organization(s) maintaining the standards. And most of the time rather than being bought by nuts-and-bolts obsessives like myself the purchases are merely a minor part of doing business. I mean if you make cable releases and you want ISO 9000 yada yada certification you probably have to, among other things, be able to produce the appropriate, well, ISO standard.

Drifting quite a bit from the OT. Is this helping Jimbo?:)

In fact ISO is not an acronym for "International Standards Organization"; it is not an acronym. It does refer to the body whose name is "International Organization for Standardization." See my post #55 below.

David

[JimboWalker]

Thanks again to all you nuts! I just today received my 5-44 taps and correct drill bits to run my test on some aluminum at work tomorrow! I will let you all know how it goes.

[Tin Can]

Back during my last career, we always had Bosch Spec handbooks laying around

Chock full of all kinds of data, except what we need now, here

Wonder if photography ever had similar

https://www.sae.org/images/books/toc_pdfs/BOSCH10.pdf

[RichSBV]

I fully accepts and am quite proud of "nuts" :p

I don't think we went off topic. After all, the links to the specs will be useful for someone else later on. Although I do have differing opinions on the ANSI and ISO spec sheets. We paid for them through our taxes (for those of us living in the USA anyway). We should have free access to them!

And I lived on the Motorola Linear Data books and various component cross reference books myself. I may even still have a couple left laying around here someplace?

[David Lindquist]

I fully accepts and am quite proud of "nuts" :p

I don't think we went off topic. After all, the links to the specs will be useful for someone else later on. Although I do have differing opinions on the ANSI and ISO spec sheets. We paid for them through our taxes (for those of us living in the USA anyway). We should have free access to them!

And I lived on the Motorola Linear Data books and various component cross reference books myself. I may even still have a couple left laying around here someplace?

More on the endlessly fascinating subject of standards organizations. Turns out neither the ANSI nor ISO are government bodies. ANSI describes itself as "private not-for-profit". Not a lot of detail on its finances. It says its membership includes "Government agencies"; I expect there's a membership fee so in that sense it's partially supported by our tax dollars.

ISO describes itself as "independent non-governmental .." A bit on its finances near the bottom of the page here: https://www.iso.org/structure.html

Main thing I learned is that "ISO" does not stand for "International Standards Organization" as I incorrectly asserted above. This organization's name in English is "International Organization for Standardization." "ISO" isn't an acronym, it was derived from the Greek "isos" meaning "equal". The thing being an acronym would vary with the organization's name being rendered in each member country's language.

David

[Bob Salomon]

More on the endlessly fascinating subject of standards organizations. Turns out neither the ANSI nor ISO are government bodies. ANSI describes itself as "private not-for-profit". Not a lot of detail on its finances. It says its membership includes "Government agencies"; I expect there's a membership fee so in that sense it's partially supported by our tax dollars.

ISO describes itself as "independent non-governmental .." A bit on its finances near the bottom of the page here: https://www.iso.org/structure.html

Main thing I learned is that "ISO" does not stand for "International Standards Organization" as I incorrectly asserted above. This organization's name in English is "International Organization for Standardization." "ISO" isn't an acronym, it was derived from the Greek "isos" meaning "equal". The thing being an acronym would vary with the organization's name being rendered in each member country's language.

David

Many, many years ago, in the early 70s I represented Rollei on the ANSI committee that was to write the standards for synch cord connectors as Rollei sold thousands of small flash units from the E15b to the E36RE plus their E250, E1500 and E5000 studio flash units.
All manufacturers were there, including Honeywell that Rollei purchased 2 years later, Ascor, Norman, Vivitar, Speedatron, etc..
Between us, meeting weekly for several months, no consensus was reached, We wanted to keep the locking PC tip on cords for our flash and cameras, most of the studio strobe manufacturers wanted to keep their 2 prong connector that could, and has, be accidentally plugged into a 120V household outlet.
In the end no consensus was established but lots of papers justifying each company’s position were submitted and read.
Membership in that committee was expensive but I can’t remember how much as I didn’t have to write the check!

[BrianShaw]

ANSI, ISO, and many others like SAE, IEEE, etc are known as “non-governmental standards development organization” (SDO). Their activities are a coalition of the willing, with the standard development either getting funded by whoever the committee member works or on a volunteer basis. As Bob mentioned, often there are membership fees required so you can “volunteer”. The SDO generally provides facilitation and editorial support, but often not much more than that. Each SDO has a not-for-profit organization, charter, staff, etc. all that gets paid for by seminars/conferences they sponsor and the sale of standards. If you think a standard is expensive...check out conference prices!

[Bob Salomon]

ANSI, ISO, and many others like SAE, IEEE, etc are known as “non-governmental standards development organization” (SDO). Their activities are a coalition of the willing, with the standard development either getting funded by whoever the committee member works or on a volunteer basis. As Bob mentioned, often there are membership fees required so you can “volunteer”. The SDO generally provides facilitation and editorial support, but often not much more than that. Each SDO has a not-for-profit organization, charter, staff, etc. all that gets paid for by seminars/conferences they sponsor and the sale of standards. If you think a standard is expensive...check out conference prices!

Bear in mind that each of our meetings were all day in a room at a NYC hotel and the costs for the room, lunches, refreshments were borne by those fees. Transportation, tolls, parking, breakfast and dinners, etc. were borne by the member companies.

[BrianShaw]

Yup. Some operate on more of a shoe-string. But no matter... Involvement in standards development requires a big investment. Each SDO and each standards working group has its own personality.

[RichSBV]

Interesting David as usual. I never looked into it and made an assumption (we all know what that means). But it was from many years ago in the company I used to work for that did standards for material expansion. I'm old and been many years... Could have been ASTM or ANSI or whatever? As far as I know, the government was involved and paid the bills. So that's where I got the thought from... They also did the tests on the moon dust but that was far from exciting... The nuclear stuff was much more fun :cool:


More on the endlessly fascinating subject of standards organizations. Turns out neither the ANSI nor ISO are government bodies. ANSI describes itself as "private not-for-profit". Not a lot of detail on its finances. It says its membership includes "Government agencies"; I expect there's a membership fee so in that sense it's partially supported by our tax dollars.

ISO describes itself as "independent non-governmental .." A bit on its finances near the bottom of the page here: https://www.iso.org/structure.html

Main thing I learned is that "ISO" does not stand for "International Standards Organization" as I incorrectly asserted above. This organization's name in English is "International Organization for Standardization." "ISO" isn't an acronym, it was derived from the Greek "isos" meaning "equal". The thing being an acronym would vary with the organization's name being rendered in each member country's language.

David

[JimboWalker]

OK! Just repaired my messed up cable release thread with a 5-44 tap! Works perfectly now. I will now attach a cable release an leave it on. All of my other lenses have their own cable releases attached also. Thanks from one nut to you others!

[David Lindquist]

Very good! Glad to hear this!

David

[Conrad . Marvin]

Good job, glad it worked!