B's 4x5 reel, experiences?

[Rain Dance]

Looking to get B's 4x5 reel or the SP-445. I already have a paterson 3 reel tank. The sp-445 has a lot of glowing reviews, the B's seem relatively new and loading it seems pretty simple. Economy in chemicals used is not an issue, as I only use HC110 or Rodinal as of right now.

[Alan9940]

I use both; never had any issues with the B's reel, but have had occasional emulsion gouges from the film hold-down clips on the SP-445 holders. I do like the fact that the Paterson tank fills faster, even though it requires more chemistry. I should probably mention that I use inversion agitation with the Paterson/B's reel combo. No experience with the "processor" unit he sells.

[Rain Dance]

Yes I am planning on doing inversion for now. I have never tried continuous agitation, but I am interested in that too.

[abruzzi]

I’d also suggest considering the 20th Century Camera reels. I’ve only used their 2.25x3.25 and 6.5x9 reels, but I like them quite a bit. Like the B’s reel, they are designed to fit in a Patterson tank.

While I like the SP-445, and it’s easy to load, I don’t like filling it or getting the lid on or off. It also doesn’t seal as well as Patterson tanks do.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Looking to get B's 4x5 reel or the SP-445. I already have a paterson 3 reel tank. The sp-445 has a lot of glowing reviews, the B's seem relatively new and loading it seems pretty simple. Economy in chemicals used is not an issue, as I only use HC110 or Rodinal as of right now.

I just developed 12 sheets in a Paterson 8 tank, Rollei Ortho 25@16 in Rodinal 1+100 10min. They came quite good, even without presoak. BUT: there are a lot of very long and deep scratches on the back of all sheets. The negatives are all completely unusable. I'm pretty annoyed about this. Very angry in fact. I know I shouldn't post in anger, but this is really sub omni canone. If you definitely want to ruin your negatives, get this.

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[jtomasella]

https://www.bounetphoto.com/bounet-shop/bs-4x5-developing-reel

I use this with awesome results
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/908261-REG/Paterson_4X5_Sheet_Film_6.html

[Kiwi7475]

I don’t personally recommend the B’s. It’s given me uneven development at times and scratches on the film (not from my hands; I always use gloves and only appear with the B’s).

The SP-445 has been flawless and it may drip one or two drops but I’ve never had real issues sealing it quite nicely if you press it to remove air right when you close it. They publicized doing this I think after their version 2 or so (and I wish the hadn’t glued a paper to the tank saying this, took me a while to remove the glue long after the paper was gone since inevitably the tank gets wet; I hope they don’t do that anymore).

I am sure it’s possible to get good results from the B’s but I gave up after a few trials. In comparison I never had issues getting good results with the SP-445 from the first batch.

[Certain Exposures]

Key success points for using the B's film reel based on over eight months of experience and successfully developing many sheets of film or ruining them due to my user error:

- Using the B's film reel without using the B's 3D printed processor is impractical because you can half your chemistry needs with the processor. The processor pays for itself in just a few developing sessions.
- Proper insertion and extraction of the film is paramount. Practice with a bad sheet until its natural. It is not difficult to do, but you must become fluid to avoid damaging the negative with hamfisted attempts. I speak from experience.
- Push the film out from the reel by flipping it upside down and using the gap between your fingernail and fingernail bed to press the film up from the notch gently. I circled the notch in red in the inserted image:

206728

- If you use the B's 3D printed processor and 500ml of solution, for the love of God, swiftly pour your developer and mount the Patterson tank on the processor to avoid uneven development. Just a few seconds of haste can lead to obvious imperfection. The telltale sign will be a wavy line that separates a dark side of the neg from the light side.
- The B's reel should last you an eternity. I have used it for C-41, ECN-2, and B&W. The processor has a shelf life limited by the strength of its glue and your diligence with keeping it dry. I need to reglue some of my parts. However, it can function correctly without them glued.

I have made every mistake possible with the B's reel and processor in the last eight months. Once you are comfortable with loading and unloading the reel, you will achieve perfect results. I enjoy the processor because it allows me to use 500ml for up to 3 rolls of 135, two rolls of 120, or 6 sheets of 4x5 in the same Patterson 3 tank.

Poor results are likely user error. That is not to say that this system is flawless, user Daniel Casper Lohenstein. When in doubt, test, test, test.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

That is, of course, the pinnacle: exposing people who already have the damage anyway. Whoever gets involved and ends up looking back at ruined negatives, and has to admit that it was a stupid idea to use such junk, will get exactly this answer: practice, practice, practice, and if it doesn't work out, it's your own fault.

They call what you see in the negatives micro scratches. Supposedly you are not supposed to see them when you enlarge them. Voodoo. Or rocket science. I have a condenser enlarger, and you can see that. - But who exactly wants that on a hard-earned negative? I have got this on the whole batch. I already developed over 500 sheets and 500 films in my life

206736



Key success points for using the B's film reel based on over eight months of experience and successfully developing many sheets of film or ruining them due to my user error:

- Using the B's film reel without using the B's 3D printed processor is impractical because you can half your chemistry needs with the processor. The processor pays for itself in just a few developing sessions.
- Proper insertion and extraction of the film is paramount. Practice with a bad sheet until its natural. It is not difficult to do, but you must become fluid to avoid damaging the negative with hamfisted attempts. I speak from experience.
- Push the film out from the reel by flipping it upside down and using the gap between your fingernail and fingernail bed to press the film up from the notch gently. I circled the notch in red in the inserted image:

206728

- If you use the B's 3D printed processor and 500ml of solution, for the love of God, swiftly pour your developer and mount the Patterson tank on the processor to avoid uneven development. Just a few seconds of haste can lead to obvious imperfection. The telltale sign will be a wavy line that separates a dark side of the neg from the light side.
- The B's reel should last you an eternity. I have used it for C-41, ECN-2, and B&W. The processor has a shelf life limited by the strength of its glue and your diligence with keeping it dry. I need to reglue some of my parts. However, it can function correctly without them glued.

I have made every mistake possible with the B's reel and processor in the last eight months. Once you are comfortable with loading and unloading the reel, you will achieve perfect results. I enjoy the processor because it allows me to use 500ml for up to 3 rolls of 135, two rolls of 120, or 6 sheets of 4x5 in the same Patterson 3 tank.

Poor results are likely user error. That is not to say that this system is flawless, user Daniel Casper Lohenstein. When in doubt, test, test, test.

[Certain Exposures]

That is, of course, the pinnacle: exposing people who already have the damage anyway. Whoever gets involved and ends up looking back at ruined negatives, and has to admit that it was a stupid idea to use such junk, will get exactly this answer: practice, practice, practice, and if it doesn't work out, it's your own fault.

They call what you see in the negatives micro scratches. Supposedly you are not supposed to see them when you enlarge them. Voodoo. Or rocket science. I have a condenser enlarger, and you can see that. - But who exactly wants that on a hard-earned negative? I have got this on the whole batch. I already developed over 500 sheets and 500 films in my life

206736

Hello Daniel,

I can understand your frustration because no photographer likes to see their hard work tarnished. I conducted several live streams where I developed 4x5 negatives with the B's 4x5 film reel and never experienced such a severe scratching problem. Again, that does not guarantee that your user error is to blame. Here are two theories I have about the cause of your problem:


I wash all my film reels before each use to help eliminate dust and remove any particles that could end up on the film. A possible cause of this scratching problem is that you had debris in your film holders or the film reel itself. Theoretically, the debris could cause major scratching while sliding the negatives in and out of the B's film reel thanks to its design. An SP-445 or tray development would be less punishing if dirty, assuming either was your prior tool.

It could be that your 3D printed reel has unusually rough internal slots in all six ports. You could test this by rubbing an unexposed sheet inside each slot of the holder and observing it for coarse scratches. I doubt Benoît would deny you a refund in light of that evidence.

Otherwise, there must be an element of user error, misfortune, or a design flaw that you can trace by examining the reel and developing more sheets. By the way, I am just a photographer like you - not a representative of B's film developing materials. Testing is valuable because when you know what conditions a problem occurs under and how to "solve" it, the onus shifts from you to the creator to find a solution. If it does end up being user error, testing makes it easier for the creator to diagnose. The effort can lead to improved versions in some cases.

The image below is a scan of a self-portrait I took on a 4x5 negative that I developed with the B's 4x5 reel. I observed the image at 200% in Lightroom, and I could not see any observable micro-scratches. The negative does not display visible scratching like yours. Again, our units might vary. That is why I suggest you test and find the root cause. If the issue repeats itself multiple times despite your best efforts, then that's valuable information for Benoît and potential users.

206812

[esearing]

I picked up a B's4x5 second hand. It worked fine even with my dilute developer. The only issue I had is that it is hard to clean in the corners compared to the SP445 flat film holders. Do not put photoflo in either tank. It tends to adhere to plastic and can affect your next batch. My patterson tanks are also slower to fill and dump than the SP tank, but with my dilutions and slower processing times I did not get uneven development.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

I picked up a B's4x5 second hand. It worked fine even with my dilute developer. The only issue I had is that it is hard to clean in the corners compared to the SP445 flat film holders. Do not put photoflo in either tank. It tends to adhere to plastic and can affect your next batch. My patterson tanks are also slower to fill and dump than the SP tank, but with my dilutions and slower processing times I did not get uneven development.

Good for you. Meanwhile I sent the crappy inserts back 2 weeks ago, on the instructions of Monsieur Bounet. He did not get back to me. The whole misery cost me 200 USD and 12 sheets of film. I will probably never see that money again.

BTW. I tried MOD54's. They're really good. I use two of them in a Paterson System 4 tank Nr 8.

[Sam L]

I've been using the B's reel for a few weeks now. I've made quite a few mistakes myself and seen a variety of failure conditions as a result. Based on those mistakes, I suspect the damage to the negative in Daniel's photo is from loading the negative backwards such that the emulsion side was facing the reel. It's hard to tell from the photo, but the damaged is much lighter than the surrounding image. This area is exactly where the back side of the negative presses against the reel. I suspect that area of the negative was under developed and/or scratched off when removing it from the reel. It just doesn't seem like even a massively defective reel could get all the way through the negative and scratch off the emulsion on the other side.

It's also possible that the negative was x-ray film, which is sometimes double-sided. X-ray film just won't work in the B's reel for this reason. I started a thread on that experience here:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?160093-B-s-4x5-Reel-and-FPP-x-ray-film

That said, I think that the strong pressure of the back of the film against the reel is its biggest flaw and would probably not recommend the reel. While development is not affected and I haven't seen bad scratching, the pressure traps the antihalation layer preventing it from being removed properly. I have tried heavy shaking and a very long pre-wash but that hasn't worked with Foma 100. The instructions do acknowledge this issue and it can be fixed by a second soak in the developer and another wash.

But obviously you can't do that second soak with the negatives in the reel or it won't work. You can't load them backwards to get the back side or you will scratch off the emulsion. That leaves reprocessing and washing each negative individually after development, which really negates the value of the thing. Also if you are doing one-shot development, you have to re-mix or save the developer...

Does anyone have a good solution to this?

[jmdavis]

Doesn't Foma 100 use a blue base film?

I have only done one run through the B's and one through the SP810. I tend to prefer the SP810. My favorite 4x5 technique is the Alternative dip and dunk using HP Combi film holders as described on the LFP Webpage. I have used that since 2005, without issue. It does require complete darkness and patience with developers like Pyrocat. For me it worked much better than shuffling in meatloaf pans. My Darkroom is temporarily out of commission and I am using a communal darkroom that doesn't lend itself to the Combi dip and dunk style of development. The reason that I like the SP810 is the flexibility of 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10. It could be a hassle with a lot of sheets but I am trying to revise workflow to deal with smaller developing runs.

[Sam L]

The "foma" I have is branded arista, but I have read they are the same. The wash water is greenish when the antihalation layer is coming off and interestingly the stains left on the film by the incomplete removal of the AH layer and subsequent fixing are pink and do not wash off with water alone. Another dip in developer removes the pink stains from the non-emulsion side. I don't really know what's going on there but I imagine something to do with the pH of the developer.

I had a successful run with two more sheets of 4x5 today in the B's reel. This time, during pre-wash, stop and final wash I filled the tank about half way with water and shook it hard for maybe 10 shakes. This seems to have circulated enough wash water behind the film.

The new problem is getting the slippery negative out of the holder without damaging the emulsion. They provide a pusher tool but it only moves the negative about 1/2", which isn't far enough for it to move easily. I tried pushing further with my fingernail from underneath but scratched the edge of the emulsion. I put it in the dishwasher for a thorough cleaning to see if maybe there's some residue that's gumming up the works causing my issues.

I'm sure there is a way to get this thing to work but it is not so easy. I'm surprised so many people have reviewed it positively.

[Alan9940]

The "foma" I have is branded arista, but I have read they are the same.

Arista re-branded Foma is the Ultra.EDU line of films. Do you have this version of "regular" Arista?



The new problem is getting the slippery negative out of the holder without damaging the emulsion.

Have you tried removing the film with the reel under water? I've found this works wonders with the B's reel, the SP-445 film holders, and hangers.

[Sam L]

Alan, I'll try removing them in the photoflo bath. Thanks for the tip.

It's arista.edu.

Here's a picture of the antihalation layer that doesn't wash off of the non-emulsion side of my negatives with the B's reel. This is with heavy shaking during all of rinse phases of the development process. I'm shy to shake the developer because of air bubbles. I've just been doing the normal periodic inversions that I use for medium format.

If it matters, this is with HC-110 @ 10 min with dilution H. The emulsion side looks really good. Even development, no flaws.

207966

[6x6TLL]

I've not used the B's reels, but would not want to use any reel or system that exposed the major part of the image surface to another surface like that, it seems like a really risky design.

I'm using Jobo 1500 tanks and reels. The only place the film comes in contact with anything (the reel) is along the edge, outside of the image area. It uses a bit more chemicals, but doesn't have you dragging your negative back and forth across a piece of 3D printed plastic. That seems unnecessarily dangerous to me.

[Alan9940]

@sabeluc, it's interesting that some folks have an issue with the anti-halation dye while others do not. Though I haven't processed that many sheets in the B's reel, I've never had the problem. I wouldn't recommend shaking the tank vigorously; seems like a high probability of film damage. If you're pretty proficient at loading the reel, you might play around with doing a pre-soak in a tray, load the reel, then drop it into a tank filled with developer. Loading wet film will probably require some creative thinking, but you would eliminate the anti-halation problem.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

hello, i have now tried out some reels. what works very well is the jobo system, but it is quite expensive and complicated to fill. it is complicated and requires practice to fill the spirals. But the sheets sit very securely in the spirals. I use two spirals for 12 sheets in a 2l tank.

what also bothers me about jobo are the missing specifications for the tank volume. if you want to do tilt development with hc110h 1+63, you need a lot of volume - but jobo aims for a rotation with less developer ... of course you can also invert with jobo, but at the beginning you are not sure, because jobo does not write how much liquid goes into the tank.

much cheaper is the MOD54, which i can highly recommend. i bought two reels, which i put into a 2,5l paterson 8 reel tank. this is very comfortable. even with inversion the films will hold in the cartridges. the films are easy to put in. sometimes it hooks, but you get practice, like with jobo. the price is ok. i will buy some more, because i have two big paterson tanks.

tschau zäme

[Alan9940]

OK, if we're going to talk alternatives instead of using the B's reel, I can highly recommend the B&W King stainless steel tank (eBay) or a used Nikkor 4x5 stainless steel tank. I've never used a Nikkor tank, but have developed hundreds of sheets in the B&W tank; and, it holds many sheets of film.

[Sam L]

Thanks, Daniel. I bought a MOD54 to try. I'll probably sell the B's reel since other people really like it but it's not working for me.

[Bob Salomon]

OK, if we're going to talk alternatives instead of using the B's reel, I can highly recommend the B&W King stainless steel tank (eBay) or a used Nikkor 4x5 stainless steel tank. I've never used a Nikkor tank, but have developed hundreds of sheets in the B&W tank; and, it holds many sheets of film.
If you’ve never used the Nikkor tank how can you highly recommend it?

[Alan9940]

If you’ve never used the Nikkor tank how can you highly recommend it?

I figured that since the Nikkor tank is very similar in design to the B&W King tank similar results would be obtained. That said, perhaps I worded it poorly. I can recommend the B&W King tank. The Nikkor tank is simply another possible solution for 4x5 film development.

[Bob Salomon]

I figured that since the Nikkor tank is very similar in design to the B&W King tank similar results would be obtained. That said, perhaps I worded it poorly. I can recommend the B&W King tank. The Nikkor tank is simply another possible solution for 4x5 film development.

So is the CombiPlan T for daylight developing and the CombiPlan L for dark processing.