doing close up work

[Emre Yildirim]

I was reading in View Camera Technique that using shorter lenses is actually better for macro work. Since the focal length is short, the photographer benefits from not having to use long bellows to focus up close.

So what lenses does everyone use for macro work? Could I use a 105mm or 72mm lens even though these are "wide-angle"? Oh, and happy new year to everyone :D

[Robert C. McColloch]

Emre,
I have found that wide angle lens tend to work better for close ups even though they are not what you would precisely call "Macro". If bellows draw is a problem you can use a shorter focal length lense. This may require you to use recessed lensboards and a flexible bag bellows.

[Emre Yildirim]

My 105mm Nikkor seems to work really nice. Since I no longer have a monorail (I use a Toyo 45AII), I'm sort of limited to the bellows that came with it. So technically, the shorter the lens, the less bellow extension I should need to focus up close, right? I.e. I'd need even less for a 72 or 65mm lens than my 105mm.

[Jim Rhoades]

Yes, but that also means that you have to be that much closer to the subject for the same enlargement. That can cause major problems with lighting etc.

[Ted Harris]

Note the point that Jim made above. There are also a host of other problems working close with a wide angle lens. Chief among them being that it becomes more and more difficult to correct distortion of objects as you get closer and closer to them ... the needed movements become more extreme and not likely possible with your AII. So, it all depends on what you mean by macro work. If you mean real macro work (e.g. 1:1 or larger) then you will have problems with a lot of objects and angles with the 72 and some, but less with the 105. For example, if you are shooting a round object at 1:1 or larger with the 72 you will need to be very very careful in terms of both camera and subject placement to avoid any enlongation of the object. Shooting flat subject straight on (e.g. artwork) will not give you that problem.

The problem is that the Toyo AII, while a superb camera for landscape work, is just not designed for macro work. It is not just the limited bellows extension but also the movement limitations that hamper you. Not that you can't doit but it will require a lot of effort. If I get a chance later today I will set up my AII with a 75mm lens in the studio and see what happens. I can tell you from experience that it is tough. Several years ago I was shooting some restaurant interiors with a Horseman FA and the owner then decided he wanted to do some close up tabletop shots with food, right there and right then. I wanted to go get my monorail or at least my Canham but nope he wanted it done there and then. One of the few times that I ever went out on a local assignment without taking all sorts of seemingly needless gear. I was able to get it done with only minimal distortion of the plates on the table but it wasn't easy and I was not particularly proud of the shots. When I showed them to him and explained how I WANTED to shoot it he then agreed but I wasted a lot of time. Not saying that you will be wasting time but just some warnings. Again,if you are dealing with flat objects you will have no trouble. You will also have no or little trouble if you are working at near macro ranges or just up close. If you are really planning on working at 1:1 and larger and doing it frequently then you may want to think about another solution.

[Emre Yildirim]

Ted,

That explains a lot. It seems that I can get at least 1:1 with the 105mm, with the standard Toyo bellows. I think I will stick with that for now. What lens do people usually use when doing 4x5 macro work?

[Jim Rhoades]

Now to all of the very good points that Ted made. Those are the reasons that when doing table tops or close-ups I use a cheap, old, Calumet 400 series longrail. Less than a hundred bucks on e-bay and a joy to do that kind of work with.

[Jean-Marie Solichon]

I use a 150 G-Claron on my AII down to 1:1 which the bellows accomodate quite well.

[Jack Flesher]

I keep a tiny little Tominon 105 out of a Polaroid MP4 specifically for true "macro" work; very sharp and contrasty and even covers 4x5 at infinity with a bit of room to spare, though 1:1 is where it shines. FWIW, this lens made over 60 lpmm in a recent test! I think I paid $100 for it in a Polaroid press shutter on @Bay.

For more general "close up" work (1:2 ~ 1:6) at more compfortable working distances, I use a 210 G-Claron.

[Ted Harris]

Emre, when doing true macro work I use the following setup:

1) Horseman monorail with 1000mm rail
2) Long bellows (sometimes two bellows with a bellows joiner n the middle for extreme closeup work)
3) A 180mm Schneider macro Symmar HM or a 105 Tominon (as described above) but usually the 180 Macro as it is much better corrected at the edges and corners for ratios of 1:1 and larger.
4) Most shooting done on a Kaiser Shooting Table

Just for kicks I did mount the Toyo AII up on the Studio Stand with a a 75mm Super Angulon f5.6 to see what I could accomplish and it was a total bear to work with. The camera is just not designed for this sort of work. I also put the 105 on and it was a bit easier but still not what you want. In addition to other issues already discussed it is very difficult to get the camera manuvered in a way that you will not get far end of the camera base in the picture (maybe even impossible to do so). You just don't hve much room to move around with a Toyo AII for this sort of work. BTW, the same is going to be true for most clamshell type field cameras; perhaps a little less so with the Horseman FA because of the flipup gizmo at thetop of the camera that makes rise easier with wide lens but see my earlier post for my own experiences with this camera in these situations.

[Emre Yildirim]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to look into that 180mm macro Schneider lens, and yes I agree the Toyo is a hassle to do macro with. I might buy a cheap monorail from ebay just for this purpose.

[Ted Harris]

Emre, True macro lenses, either those from Schneider or those from Rodenstock (or older luminars for tht matter) are truly stunning performers for macro work but in this instance the definition of macro is very precise. About a year ago I did a real-world comparison of the 180 Macro to a 180 Apo Sironar N. At closeup distances, read almost 1:1 but not quite (and I measured exactly in the tests) there was virtually no difference in the performance of the two lenses. Once I went to exactly 1:1 or beyond the differences showed up very clearly. My test subject was necklace made up of thousands of sterling silver links, each link perhaps 2-3mm. At 1:1 and beyond the ability of the macro lens to hold the resolution all the way out to the corners of the frame was clearly superior to that of the regular lens. I mention this because, IMO, they are worth the relatively high price if you are doing true macro work, such as jewelry where that edge sharpness/corner resolution makes a real difference in 'snap' and helpspull the viewer into the image, helps sell the client. If you aren't doing this type of work they are a bit of an investment for many.

You will need to buy that monorail if you decide to get the lens. The Toyo AII bellows extgension of 324mm just isn't enough to work in the macro range with the 180mmlens. You will need a minimum of 360mm and more is advisable if yiou want to go beyond 1:1. Any inexpensive monorail should give you what you need.

[Ted Harris]

Emre, True macro lenses, either those from Schneider or those from Rodenstock (or older luminars for tht matter) are truly stunning performers for macro work but in this instance the definition of macro is very precise. About a year ago I did a real-world comparison of the 180 Macro to a 180 Apo Sironar N. At closeup distances, read almost 1:1 but not quite (and I measured exactly in the tests) there was virtually no difference in the performance of the two lenses. Once I went to exactly 1:1 or beyond the differences showed up very clearly. My test subject was necklace made up of thousands of sterling silver links, each link perhaps 2-3mm. At 1:1 and beyond the ability of the macro lens to hold the resolution all the way out to the corners of the frame was clearly superior to that of the regular lens. I mention this because, IMO, they are worth the relatively high price if you are doing true macro work, such as jewelry where that edge sharpness/corner resolution makes a real difference in 'snap' and helpspull the viewer into the image, helps sell the client. If you aren't doing this type of work they are a bit of an investment for many.

You will need to buy that monorail if you decide to get the lens. The Toyo AII bellows extension of 324mm just isn't enough to work in the macro range with the 180mm lens. You will need a minimum of 360mm and more is advisable if yiou want to go beyond 1:1. Any inexpensive monorail should give you what you need.

[Bosaiya]

Large format macro is almost all I do, generally 5:1 up to 12:1, sometimes more. I have two lenses, a 180mm and a 60mm.

It's true that the shorter lens allows you to use less bellows, and that has its advantages. There was a time when I really was just using the 60mm because of that. Then I saw the light, or rather the lighting problem when using that lens, and switched over to the 180mm and haven't really looked back.

Depending on the magnification you're working at you will have very little space between the front of the lens and the subject. So while the smaller lens allows less bellows, you have to get in closer with the lens. This means it can be more difficult to light your subject. It gets to the point where the lens is practically touching and even a ring light around the lens would really only provide side lighting. If you are trying to do anything at all interesting with light then you really need the space between the lens and the subject.

If you really want it to look good do as the others say and get a dedicated macro lens, your edge-to-edge resolution will thank you.

You can see what I'm talking about here: AngelsAndInsects.com (http://www.knockoutproductions.com/angels/index.cfm?ref=lfp)

[ramin]

Dear Emre:

This is off topic but since I know you use a SA 72 on a Toyo AII I am curious if you use this lens on a recessed lens board. I use this lens on a flat board on my AII but want to know if it is worth getting the 12.5 recessed board for this set up.

Cheers