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Tin Can
28-Jun-2020, 05:11
I wonder if a good comparison in resolution ONLY has been made comparing film to wet plate

While we are at it let us include historic, current and any hand made Dry Plates

but only LF sizes, please

Ari
28-Jun-2020, 06:50
I watched a Topshit Photography video where he said that the collodion and silver make for a nearly grainless image.
Something about using molecules instead of film grain, or something to that effect.

Tin Can
28-Jun-2020, 07:06
Yes, saw that, hence my question to our experts

T-Grain is bigger or what? Molecules are pretty small usually


I watched a Topshit Photography video where he said that the collodion and silver make for a nearly grainless image.
Something about using molecules instead of film grain, or something to that effect.

Daniel Unkefer
28-Jun-2020, 07:58
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50001638541_cf4e8169f8_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jbtt7e)J Lane 9x12 Dry Plate Makiflex Petzval ADOX Borax MQ (https://flic.kr/p/2jbtt7e) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Dry Plate 9x12cm J Lane processed in ADOX Borax MQ replenished Unmarked Petzval brass lens an 8 incher about F4 (?) Exposed at EI 1. 1/4 at F4 Key day pure bright sun Aristo #2 Matte RC paper developed in Multigrade dev



https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49999545161_04fe89066a_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jbhJPt)Makiflex Auto Petzval Ortho+ ADOX Borax MQ (https://flic.kr/p/2jbhJPt) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

9x12cm EI 50 Efke PL100 ADOX Borax MQ + EI 50 Same F4 (?) brass unmarked Petzval lens 1/250 at F4 Aristo #2 Matte RC Multigrade dev


Don't have any resolution data but this was an informative test

Two23
28-Jun-2020, 08:10
I have found the tins I make are indeed grainless. I haven't been able to make any meaningful comparisons of resolution because I shoot wet plate with 19th C. lenses and film with modern Copal lenses.


Kent in SD

Mark Sawyer
28-Jun-2020, 13:29
Wet plate still clumps into grain, but grain is generally proportionate to speed, so yeah, it's small. But looking for grain on a tintype is like looking for grain in a contact print. Gonna need a microscope...

It would be fun to see a big print from a 4x5 wet plate negative beside a similar print from 4x5 film, same lens on the camera.

goamules
28-Jun-2020, 17:59
Do you want science or subjective impressions? For the latter, I'll say "wetplate is sharper than most film". For science,

"The collodion layers have very low granularity and are comparable to microfilm emulsions. Intensification results in higher granularity."
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/296328598_The_wet_collodion_process_-_A_scientific_approach

"Even if fine grained, wet collodion process was definitely not infinitely resolving."
http://hubicka.blogspot.com/2016/03/resolution-of-historical-photographs-in.html

jp
28-Jun-2020, 18:08
Some of the big scans on Shorpy from 19th century appear grainless. I have not personally run into much grain scanning an ambrotype or tmax 400 with the Epson scanner but I'm not scientific about it.

Mark Sawyer
29-Jun-2020, 01:58
I may be wrong but I think Daguerreotypes are the highest resolving process.

Should have quit while we were ahead...

Tin Can
29-Jun-2020, 05:04
Seems KODAK has switched from glass to to film for Electron Microscopy

This catalog page has a 2020 date

Kodak Films including Electron Microscopy Film

https://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/products/photographic/kodak.aspx

Tin Can
29-Jun-2020, 05:30
This is not what we do, but interesting

Graphene Support Films for TEM

https://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/products/graphene/graphene_tem.aspx

Nodda Duma
29-Jun-2020, 06:27
I may be wrong but I think Daguerreotypes are the highest resolving process.

Should have quit while we were ahead...

Lippman plates are generally considered to be the highest resolution, and in fact are so high resolution that they are used for holography.

Tin Can
29-Jun-2020, 06:36
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lippmann_plate


Lippman plates are generally considered to be the highest resolution, and in fact are so high resolution that they are used for holography.

Tin Can
29-Jun-2020, 06:50
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?97259-Kodak-Spectroscopic-Plates&p=958784&viewfull=1#post958784

Drew Bedo
29-Jun-2020, 10:05
Serious Astronomy imaging was always done on Gglass plates, wety or dry. This may still be the case for some sorts of sky survey projects. The dimensional stability of glass plates is the reason for the continued use of glass well into the film era.

Tin Can
29-Jun-2020, 11:23
Evidently KODAK had issues with unavailable chemicals for the best plates as long ago as 2003.

The below was copied from KODAK PDF found in Internet Archive as early as 2003, document had no date.

https://web.archive.org/web/20051109184817/http://www.skyarchive.org:80/wgss_newsletter/issue3/kodak-2.pdf

Availability of KODAK Astronomical Plates Questionnaire
For a number of reasons, we currently are unable to manufacture some of the astronomical
emulsions on glass plates. Our problems are related to certain gelatin formulations which are no
longer available. We are testing to determine alternate sources of supply, but progress is not
promising. We may be able to improve the situation slightly after testing for a period of 6 to 8
months. In other cases it is doubtful that we will be able to make the emulsions at all.
The situation is particularly crucial since we believe that some of the ingedients we don't
know which without an extensive research program that these products cannot support were
responsible for the sensitivity of the plates.
The plates that we are currently having difficulties with are:
KODAK Spectroscopic Plate, Type 11a-0
KODAK Special plate, Type 156-01/02 (formerly Ila-D)
KODAK Special plate, Type 157-01/02
KODAK Spectroscopic Plates, Type 103a-O, 103a-F, 103a-G, and 103a-D
KODAK Special Plate, Type 098-01/02/04
KODAK Spectroscopic Plates, Type 649-0, 649-F.
Others that we have had problems with that currently have temporary fixes in place are:
KODAK Spectrum Analysis Plates, SA-1
KODAK Spectroscopic Plate, Type Illa-J
KODAK Spectroscopic Plates, Type Illa-F.
Gordon P. Brown
Coordinator: Scientific Products
KODAK

Bill Rolph
29-Jun-2020, 12:34
Collodion processes can resolve upwards of 10,000 lp/mm. Far above any standard gelatin film.

205289

Image source: "Microphotography: Photography and Photofabrication at Extreme Resolutions" by G. W. W. Stevens. The image is originally from a paper by the names mentioned in the caption, but I have only been able to find references to it and not its actual content.

Another image in this book that may be relevant:

205290

Tin Can
29-Jun-2020, 13:14
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.4630200321 $25

Tin Can
29-Jun-2020, 13:21
Bill, looks like one copy is available

I will wait a bit in case you want it

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=21675190147&cm_sp=det-_-bsk-_-bdp


Collodion processes can resolve upwards of 10,000 lp/mm. Far above any standard gelatin film.

205289

Image source: "Microphotography: Photography and Photofabrication at Extreme Resolutions" by G. W. W. Stevens. The image is originally from a paper by the names mentioned in the caption, but I have only been able to find references to it and not its actual content.

Another image in this book that may be relevant:

205290

Bill Rolph
29-Jun-2020, 13:26
I appreciate the gesture, but I already have the book. It was the specific paper by Mollenstedt and Spiedel that I couldn't find. The book is excellent and I highly recommend it, but if it just the resolution of collodion that concerns you I can scan the relevant pages and send them to you (or anyone else interested). The majority of the book covers silver gelatin emulsions and the technique of microphotography - there are only a couple pages about collodion.

Tin Can
29-Jun-2020, 13:40
Thanks Bill

I bought the book, I like books

Looked up your prior posts

I am impressed!



I appreciate the gesture, but I already have the book. It was the specific paper by Mollenstedt and Spiedel that I couldn't find. The book is excellent and I highly recommend it, but if it just the resolution of collodion that concerns you I can scan the relevant pages and send them to you (or anyone else interested). The majority of the book covers silver gelatin emulsions and the technique of microphotography - there are only a couple pages about collodion.

Bill Rolph
29-Jun-2020, 14:10
Thanks for the compliment.

I am sure you will enjoy the book. It contains an enormous amount of information without being inaccessible. It is my favorite book among my collection.

Tin Can
29-Jun-2020, 14:20
:o:o

Mark Sampson
29-Jun-2020, 14:32
Per the Kodak quote in Randy's post #16, perhaps the key words are "an extensive research program that these products cannot support". EK was desperate for cash in those days and were busy dismantling the Research Labs- and any product that wasn't showing a profit was about to be discontinued, if it wasn't already gone. And I suppose the astronomers had mostly gone digital by then.
Back on-topic, it's interesting to find out the resolution capability of wet-plate collodion, even if it's a quality that photographers are unlikely to be able to fully utilize. That said, I suppose that soon, someone will be enlarging a wet-plate neg to billboard size and getting up close to the print with an 8x loupe...

Tin Can
29-Jun-2020, 14:41
spoiler...

I just burned my last shekel on that project

NOT ART lives

Drew Bedo
1-Jul-2020, 12:53
A while back, I explored the availability of dry plates used in computer chip masking. The resolution was incredible (don't remember the specs now) but the cost was prohibitive.

jp
1-Jul-2020, 13:35
A while back, I explored the availability of dry plates used in computer chip masking. The resolution was incredible (don't remember the specs now) but the cost was prohibitive.

New chips are in the range of 7nm (0.007 uM), so that's substantially finer than the really nice data in this thread.

Drew Bedo
3-Jul-2020, 05:12
This was back in 2009-2010, so chip technology was stikll not thaty tight . . .

Tin Can
13-Jul-2020, 14:41
Just got the book, it came out of NASA Headquarters Library Washington DC Printed Great Britain

VGC clean copy, maybe unread

Thank you


Thanks for the compliment.

I am sure you will enjoy the book. It contains an enormous amount of information without being inaccessible. It is my favorite book among my collection.

Bill Rolph
13-Jul-2020, 16:17
Just got the book, it came out of NASA Headquarters Library Washington DC Printed Great Britain

VGC clean copy, maybe unread

Thank you

Yes, I don't think the book was often bought by individuals. My copy was originally held in the Library of Congress, before going to a U.S. army library, and then to me.

Randy
23-Jul-2020, 12:08
Over a year ago, when I made my first dry plate exposures, I did a close-up scan of a small section of the 4X5 neg (scan near left elbow). No "grain" that I could see. I suspect that wet plate would be comparable...?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4l555mkkn0z1eek/img866d.jpg?dl=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/007ghku20u1ed3a/close.jpg?dl=1