Light weight 810 system

[Songyun]

Let me start with what I have now.
Camera: Chamonix Alpinist
Film holder: 3X Chamonix wooden film holder (not the light weigh one)
Film holder bag: Photobackpacker 3 film holders bag
Tripod 3541LS (Remove the top disc and replaced with an adapter allows 360 pan with Ries Tripod head)
Tripod head Ries J-250 Double tilt
Lens: this one depends: my starting point is 210mm would consider wider 120/150 or longer 300/450, if I have to take one lens only, I would probably take 210 computar.
Accessories: Minlota Spot meter, Rodenstock 4X loupe, Harrison dark cloth
Bag: F-stop Loka UL +Pro ICU (I really love the folding size of the Alpinist, it allows me to select bag at 12" wide)

I feel like the bottleneck in weight is the tripod, I have used Gitzo 1541T with an arca type small ball head. It works for shorter bellow draw. But I prefer to use Ries tripod head on 3541LS.

Of course the number of film holders and the weight of lens can vary.


How would you guys build your light weight 810 system? What would be your lens selection? I would like to get some advice on how to reduce some weight from this system.

[Peter De Smidt]

How much tripod head movement do you usually use?

[John Kasaian]

Leaving the tripod head at home will lose you some weight.
Probably my most used lens for hiking is a 240mm G Claron because of it's size, light weight and coverage.

[Songyun]

How much tripod head movement do you usually use?

I don't use much movement, unless I need to put the camera into vertical position. However I prefer the double tilt over ball, as I can control the two directions separately.

[Kiwi7475]

^ this.

The J250 is 2.5 lbs. can you do without adjusting anything and just have a quick release on the tripod? You’d loose all ability to tilt (you could do panning if you have the right quick release).

You can level the tripod with bubbles and coarsely adjusting the legs, ultimately then you can finely adjust the front/rear standard somewhat.

[CreationBear]

I would like to get some advice on how to reduce some weight from this system.

Very jealous of your Chamonix!:) To be honest, I think once you commit to the internal logic of shooting 8x10, trying to "gram weenie" your load-out defeats the purpose--which is another way of saying you've probably got the perfect system already. On the other hand, it's very possible that you might improve the perceived weight of your load with a different backpack--spending some time with a good pack fitter might be a good investment of time.

[Songyun]

Maybe using the Gitzo leveling base?

^ this.

The J250 is 2.5 lbs. can you do without adjusting anything and just have a quick release on the tripod? You’d loose all ability to tilt (you could do panning if you have the right quick release).

You can level the tripod with bubbles and coarsely adjusting the legs, ultimately then you can finely adjust the front/rear standard somewhat.

[Drew Wiley]

A ball head is just useless weight; it's basically a wobble-inducer. I haven't used any kind of tripod head with a view camera for decades. All it takes is a little practice. I have both Ries and carbon fiber tripods to choose from, preferring the Ries for sheer bully mass and wind resistance; but a thick-diameter leg CF unit with a similar PLATFORM TOP is nice when light weight is the overriding priority (I use a modified Feisol CT-3472). Anything too light in terms of a tripod will prove counterproductive. Adding the wt of a Ries head to that rather underweight set of legs you mentioned will just make it top heavy and not only more subject to vibration, but to wind gusts. You need to think in terms of torque vector fulcrums, which is the one critical thing most photographers forget when selecting supports; torsion is the enemy. You can also save weight by using things like ordinary bubble packing instead of official camera bags with a lot of redundant heavy foam and cordura, which add up pretty fast. Yesterday I was out with my Phillips 8x10 and several lenses. Even though I brought my larger Ries, the full pack, which includes a lot of extra stuff I just leave in there year-round, including jacket and raingear, first aid kit, complete filter set, water bottles and snacks - all was still quite manageable. I use an old-style true Kelty external frame pack (US made backpacking pack - not a camera pack with foam dividers and lining). The 8x10 folder, film holders, darkcloth, etc are all safely separated from one another and protected using basic lightweight pieces of foamboard (Gatorboard in this case), along with simple poly trashcan liners. The lenses are in side pouches in simple bubble wrap mailer envelopes. Filters, meter, loupe, etc in another side pouch. When I switch to a different camera like the 4x5 Norma monorail, it takes just a few minutes to switch out the main compartment and the one or two lenses which might be format specific (most of my view lenses are used in a multi-format sense, all the way from 6X9 roll film holders to 8x10).

[dap]

If your tripod/head is the problem I would consider a tripod with a video bowl and half ball - it will give you limited movements without having to carry a tripod head along with you.

[Peter De Smidt]

It is a horizontal camera that needs to be flipped on its side for vertical framing.

[Drew Wiley]

A simple right-angle bracket can easily be machined for either vertical framing or shooting straight down without a tripod head, and at greater stability with lesser weight. But I suspect that people who buy a "horizontal-only" camera mostly use it that way almost exclusively.

[Songyun]

A simple right-angle bracket can easily be machined for either vertical framing or shooting straight down without a tripod head, and at greater stability with lesser weight. But I suspect that people who buy a "horizontal-only" camera mostly use it that way almost exclusively.
95% chance I am shooting landscape. shooting vertical was not my concern. Use tripod without head is a bit difficult for me, certainly needs a lot of practice.

[grat]

I'll voice a minority opinion, and say that not all ball heads are crap. Most ball heads are either "full lock" or "full unlock", and are indeed tools of satan.

Some time ago, I picked up a relatively inexpensive, massively oversized ball head (Innorel low-profile N52) for a different project, but discovered it works very well for my 4x5 Chamonix. You can set the friction to whatever level you want, so I can either move the camera slowly, or quickly, and leveling is generally quick and painless. The ball head is rated for 66(!) pounds, and even assuming they really only mean 33 lbs, it's rock solid with my 4x5 + lens + grafmatic in any angle I want to lock it into. Oh, and it weighs 1.4 lbs.

So there are decent ball heads out there. There are some truly godawful ones as well.

[Kiwi7475]

I'll voice a minority opinion, and say that not all ball heads are crap. Most ball heads are either "full lock" or "full unlock", and are indeed tools of satan.

Some time ago, I picked up a relatively inexpensive, massively oversized ball head (Innorel low-profile N52) for a different project, but discovered it works very well for my 4x5 Chamonix. You can set the friction to whatever level you want, so I can either move the camera slowly, or quickly, and leveling is generally quick and painless. The ball head is rated for 66(!) pounds, and even assuming they really only mean 33 lbs, it's rock solid with my 4x5 + lens + grafmatic in any angle I want to lock it into. Oh, and it weighs 1.4 lbs.

So there are decent ball heads out there. There are some truly godawful ones as well.

I second that. I sometimes use a RSS BH-55 with a 15 lbs metal 8x10 camera (not including lenses) with no issues whatsoever. Rock solid.

I think, like everything, the tool needs to be sized to the job. A warning of “those scrawny ball heads won’t work” is fair but a general statement of “thou shalt not use a ball head” is uncalled for.

[Ari]

I've found that I rarely need a head with 4x5 or 8x10. Instead I use the tripod with a levelling half-ball, which gives me 15˚ of movement, more than enough for 99% of my shooting.
I simply attached a QR clamp to the stud screw on top of the half-ball, and it's solid.
It also keeps the center of gravity lower, so it's slightly more stable than using a ball head.

[Alan Gales]

I used a Berlebach tripod with the Tachihara 4x5 I had at the time. It had the leveling ball and no head. It worked for me until I found a great deal on a used Ries and fell in love with the leg locks. A leveling ball like Ari recommends with a carbon fiber tripod would be even lighter.

You could also look for those lightweight Fuji lenses for 8x10. They aren't cheap though.

[Drew Wiley]

Torque vectors, torque vectors .... not only is 8x10 film double in each dimension from 4x5, but for all practical purposes, so are the dimensions of the camera and its bellows extension at equivalent usage. That means, that among similarly designed flatbed cameras, the 8x10 version is going to exert twice as much torque vector torture each direction, including side to side wobble, then you multiply that by the length difference. So a support system that works competently for an equivalent 4x6 model might be unstable or have unrealistic vibrations in 8x10 usage. This applies even below the camera bed, where the further the distance in between where stress is distributed to the legs, the more torque you apply on that joint, with a narrow neck or extension column being the worst of possibilities. It's basic physics that even I can understand. And here's a fellow who wants to trim weight realistically, and what does someone say, well, you can indeed use a ballhead, provided it's the diameter and alloy of a submarine ball valve, and you have an elephant carry your gear. Presuming that problem could be solved, things are going to get too topheavy to be wind stable. I like to simply problems, not compound them. ...So as long as I'm being annoying, back to the pack issue. Yes, he has one he likes, so I won't comment on that particular item. But in general, a true external frame pack is going to weigh nearly the same, or even significantly less than an official photo pack, but have three or four times the carry volume capacity! Why don't they make them that way anymore - simply because it was expensive and took welding. Now they just hand you something padded in the back, generally made in China, basically a glorified book bag, or at most an internal plastic frame which is easy to mass produce. And on a hot day, having some air circulation on your back instead of something directly resting on it is a distinct amenity.

[grat]

It's basic physics that even I can understand. And here's a fellow who wants to trim weight realistically, and what does someone say, well, you can indeed use a ballhead, provided it's the diameter and alloy of a submarine ball valve, and you have an elephant carry your gear. Presuming that problem could be solved, things are going to get too topheavy to be wind stable.

Reasonable points, although I have a small advantage-- I've actually used this particular head, and know that it's relatively lightweight (1.4 lbs), more compact than any geared head, and solid. I bought it for mounting a relatively fast refractor plus a DSLR on an equatorial mount for astrophotography, so I assure you, I'm familiar with the concepts of torque vector and vibration.

I realize ball heads aren't for everyone, but I find them to be compact, and their usability offsets their limitations.

[Drew Wiley]

Still a pound and a half more than no head. Just ask the Headless Horseman camera company.

[Peter De Smidt]

I've done a bit of all of this. What works best depends on what and how you photograph. Some people might be shooting grand scenics with the camera fairly level. No tripod head works fine for that. It might also work great for some types of portraiture. But I'm fairly often in positions that this simply won't work. I've tried. I might be on the side of a hill, or maybe I'm photographing architecture, or I might have a super wide, and I'm really low to the ground and wanting to point up.....Sometimes, there's no good way to avoid using a head. Moreover, even if you can setup without a head, having a head can often make setup faster, especially when very fine positioning of the camera is important. Timing matters sometimes, even with large format. A bit more versatile is the video-style bowl. I use one under my gimbal head. For slight shifts from level, it works great, and it's very stable, but, like most ball heads, you can't move each axis separately, and movement angles are limited. Another thing you might consider is a two way head. They are often used with monopods for super telephoto use at sporting events. They aren't that expensive, and they are light and strong. Here's an inexpensive version: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1345432-REG/desmond_dmh_2_x1_monopod_head_with_clamp.html Here's an expensive version: https://www.acratech.net/acratech-panoramic-head-can-be-used-like-a-long-lens-head/ If you need paning ability, then paning bases are available separately. Of course you could use a Ries pan/tilt head (or a Sinar, but it's not as weather resistant.)

I have no problem using an Arca B1 with my Toyo AX. Set the drag properly, and it's a piece of cake.

[Rayt]

I use a Gitzo GT3531 with center column replaced with a Markin hub, and the Linhof Cube. The Cube is heavy but the best thing I have ever used.

[Drew Wiley]

Peter, Nonsense! - I've been on rough terrain more often than not, many many many times - no tripod head needed. All kinds of odd and precarious setup positions. The early surveyors necessarily did it that way, every single time, often atop very remote high summits; and they HAD to be precise - every single time. My own dad worked that way as a surveyor for major Fed dam projects like Grand Coulee. I learned the technique with that old brass transit. You can't ask for more solid proof than that. It simply WILL work! I've done architectural photog that way too. I've sold modern survey equipment too, including tripods, and would rather have a versatile, easily customized platform top any day than a scooped/dome version; but whatever one is accustomed to and uses intuitively themselves makes sense, but not always in terms of lessening weight. I use pan tilt heads for most MF camera applications except esp long heavy teles, so am quite familiar with the distinctions. Those Gimbal supports would be worthless with the 300mm lenses for my P67; but that's not the primary topic here. If one insists on some kind of intermediate support, the Ries or Sinar makes the most sense, but is still redundant extra wt as far as I'm concerned.

[Rod Klukas]

The Arca-Swiss Ball heads such as Z1+ have friction adjustments for movements. also as they do not use a spherical ball, but a more egg like, or elliptical shape, the head is never floppy like so many others. Should you fail to fully lock the head

down and, say your camera began to tip, the friction increases the more off axis it becomes.

The lightweight choices for the lenses in various focal lengths would be Schneider 150mm Apo-Symmar XL, Rodenstock Apo-Sironar W 210mm or Fuji 250mm 6.7 (398 IC), Fuji 300mm A/S F9 (420 IC). Longer Fuji made a 450mm F12.5 which

was quite small, but did not have the contrast and especially, color contrast of the 450mm Nikon M. The 450mm Nikon is not huge though it used a #3 Shutter. Many of my students used the Nikon 450mm for 11x14 with great results, even though the image circle was only listed at 440mm.(11x14 diagonal is about 452mm).

Arca-Swiss offers a quite compact 8x10, The Misura. 8.8 lbs.

[Songyun]

I was preparing for a shot tomorrow. And I decide to measure the weight:
The bag: F-stop Loka UL +Pro ICU + a small lens bag + Alpinist + 1X wooden film holder + 150 ssxl + center filter + F-spotmeter + loupe + Dark cloth 15.8lbs

Tripod 3541LS + adapter + J-250 6.8lbs

[jmdavis]

So at 25lbs (with 3 holders)you have all that you need except food and snacks. That seems pretty good to me. Not back packing for a week good, but traveling a few miles on foot to get a shot good.

[Michael Roberts]

Songyun, I like this thread, it plays into my own work on developing a lightweight 8x10 system after starting out with a Kodak 2D years ago. Thanks for starting the thread....

I got my gear and bathroom scale out. My total is close to yours, 22.8 pounds, but of course the details vary.

Pack, 14.4lbs, including 8x10 (7x11) horizontal camera, two lenses (or more specifically, four lenses, two shutters: a Wolly f12.5, 159mm and a TR triple convertible), two film holders, dark cloth, and a diy tripod platform head, and miscellaneous stuff in pockets (headlamp, spare cable releases, velcro and tape rolls, mini-tool, spare hardware, spring clamp, etc.).

FLM CP30 L4II tripod, 3.3lb.

analog spot meter, 1.2lb, in nylon pouch with shoulder strap

vest, 3.8lb, includes cable release, log book, filters, air blaster, compass, lens wrench, rain poncho, backup incidence meter, small Canon Powershot, gloves, etc., etc.

My vest seems to be my weak point. When pushed, I extract what I need for a longer, higher, hotter hike, e.g., just the cable release and polarizing filter. So that drops my total weight to about 20lbs. I have also left behind the TR lens, so down to about 18lbs. Removing extraneous stuff served me well last month when I hiked to the Golden Cathedral in Grand Staircase-Escalante. The hike is 8mi roundtrip with 6mi across open desert.

I also have the option of just taking my 4x10 camera, one lens and one film holder (4 shots), dark cloth, meter, cable release, filter, and 2lb travel tripod for a total of about 10lbs.

I agree about your tripod; seems to me you could drop 2-3lbs by changing to a tripod and platform like mine. https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?158874-Lightweight-stable-tripod-platform&p=1558872&viewfull=1#post1558872

[Drew Wiley]

How was that road to the Golden Cathedral trailhead? Being a relatively dry winter, I'd imagine it's not too bad. But I've seen bad years with washouts. I've never had any problems with my 4WD high-clearance truck; but if I travel with a friend who just has AWD, it can be more problematic. Last time, I entered the Escalante further down with about an 85 lb pack. Never mind why, except that I have always tried to keep the exercise load up there, even for a day hike, attempting to keep in shape for more ambitious treks. Now that I'm over 70, the wt isn't anywhere near that much, but I still try to keep it close to true backpack trip weight, or else I won't be properly conditioned when it counts.

[Michael Roberts]

Hole in the Rock Road was the worst washboarding I've ever encountered. Absolutely awful. We did about 5-6 trips on it, as far as 30mi one way.

I've never done overnight backpacking, but we did do a half-day llama trek this trip just for the fun of it. I think I'd take a llama if I was carrying 85 pounds, if possible. Not realistic if rappelling...

I admire your strength and endurance, Drew, and I envy your exploits into more remote places. Would be great to get as far away from people as possible and on a regular basis.

[Songyun]

I am searching for a good leveling base. Can someone tell me if "SERIES 3 TRIPOD LEVELING BASE | TA-3-LB" works on Gitzo 3 series tripods?

[Peter De Smidt]

I think so, but why not ask Really Right Stuff?

[Songyun]

I think so, but why not ask Really Right Stuff?

I saw someone compare this one with Gitzo leveling base and I thought this might fit Gitzo 3 series. But when I called RRS, they told me that it won't fit.

[Peter De Smidt]

I have a Gitzo leveling base, and it's a very tight fit on a G1325.

I use this column with one of my aluminum 3 series Gitzos: https://www.siruiusa.com/index/photographic/rxcenter.html?cid=5&id=35

It fits perfectly.

The corresponding leveling base is: https://www.siruiusa.com/index/photographic/bowl.html?cid=6&id=37

I'd contact to confirm that it fits. I'm very happy with Sirui quality.

[Drew Bedo]

I do not hike around with any camera due to age and joints, but . . .

I routinely use my 8x10 Kodak 2D without a hesd on a set of Burlbach legs that has a leveling center post . The movement provided by the leveling post is usually enough for the images I make.

[Torontoamateur]

I use the old Kodak 2D in Magnesium , rare but very light and solid. Then I use a Gitzo carbon fiber tripod with a small head. Cannot remember model numbers. I do like the Rodenstock 240mm Symmar and although it not the lightest I do like the colour rendering. I can put this all in a carryon bag with two fidelity holders adn off I go I make the weight limits for carry on too.

[Jeff Keller]

RRS came out with a replacement for their universal leveling base, lowering the height, and label it as a 2 series: TA-2U-LB. Although I've used my older universal leveling base with SLR's I like the ergonomics of the locking mechanism more than the 3 series (or similar Gitzo) leveling base. The older 2 series leveling base seemed to have the same bowl as the 3 series, but a smaller diameter attachment to the tripod. The load capacity was also the same 25 lbs. I think the universal RRS would handle a light weight 810 camera unless it had a very long extension. Kirk makes a similar universal leveling base: https://www.adorama.com/kirtlb1.html

The RRS 4 series leveling base is much bigger ( 100mm vs 72mm platform ). The load rating is higher at 50 lbs.

Linhof makes a leveling base which is occasionally sold on the used market which "looks sturdier" but actually has a 10kg rating https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/31372-REG/Linhof_003664_Large_Leveling_Head.html/specs .

In spite of the small surface to attach the RRS to a 3 series Gitzo, I would probably buy it if I needed a replacement. https://www.reallyrightstuff.com/ta-2u-lb_2




I am searching for a good leveling base. Can someone tell me if "SERIES 3 TRIPOD LEVELING BASE | TA-3-LB" works on Gitzo 3 series tripods?

[Greg]

Linhof makes a leveling base which is occasionally sold on the used market which "looks sturdier" but actually has a 10kg rating https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/31372-REG/Linhof_003664_Large_Leveling_Head.html/specs .

In spite of the small surface to attach the RRS to a 3 series Gitzo, I would probably buy it if I needed a replacement. https://www.reallyrightstuff.com/ta-2u-lb_2

I have and use this very same head, except it is the previous model with bare metal showing through on the raised pattern on the top and bottom of the head. I can attest that it can carry an 8x10 Chamonix or a vintage 8x10 Sinar Norma with a 508mm lens on the camera. I once had to mount my 11x14 on top of this head (only head I had with me at the time). It was windy, and I couldn't get the image on the GG to be still. Its present new list price makes me sit back in my chair and smile... got mine off ebay for well under $100 and have passed up on others similarly priced. What I did notice in closely looking at the image of the new one and holding mine next to the screen, is that the new one pictured has a 3/8-16 screw and not the 1/4-20 size as mentioned in the text. Visually confirmed without a doubt, trust me. I would love to have a solid 3/8-16 screw to attach my camera to. Having to insert an Oben 3/8"-16 to 1/4"-20 Reducer Bushing ($2.49 in the "Recommended Accessories") into the bottom of my cameras always makes me cringe just a little.

[Bob Salomon]

I have and use this very same head, except it is the previous model with bare metal showing through on the raised pattern on the top and bottom of the head. I can attest that it can carry an 8x10 Chamonix or a vintage 8x10 Sinar Norma with a 508mm lens on the camera. I once had to mount my 11x14 on top of this head (only head I had with me at the time). It was windy, and I couldn't get the image on the GG to be still. Its present new list price makes me sit back in my chair and smile... got mine off ebay for well under $100 and have passed up on others similarly priced. What I did notice in closely looking at the image of the new one and holding mine next to the screen, is that the new one pictured has a 3/8-16 screw and not the 1/4-20 size as mentioned in the text. Visually confirmed without a doubt, trust me. I would love to have a solid 3/8-16 screw to attach my camera to. Having to insert an Oben 3/8"-16 to 1/4"-20 Reducer Bushing ($2.49 in the "Recommended Accessories") into the bottom of my cameras always makes me cringe just a little.
It was available with either ¼ or ⅜ male screw. You just had to specify which size you wanted.
If you had the ¼ thread you could add the Linhof bushing to convert it to ⅜”. The bushing is brass and has 5 full turns of thread.

[Greg]

It was available with either ¼ or ⅜ male screw. You just had to specify which size you wanted.
If you had the ¼ thread you could add the Linhof bushing to convert it to ⅜”. The bushing is brass and has 5 full turns of thread.

Thanks for the info Bob. Unfortunately the 1/4-20 screw on the top of my Linhof head has only 3 threads. I actually have one of those brass 5 thread bushings that I can screw into the bottom of my camera, but I prefer to use a harder SS metal one (I'm sure better than the $2.49 Oben) since I am ultimately having to depend on only those 3 threads on the top of my Linhof head.

[Valdecus]

Here's my lightweight Alpinist with a set of lenses ranging from 165mm to 450mm. ThinkTank camera bag, Gitzo/RRS tripod. A joy to use!

205476

205477

[srpirolt]

Here's my lightweight Alpinist with a set of lenses ranging from 165mm to 450mm. ThinkTank camera bag, Gitzo/RRS tripod. A joy to use!

205476

205477

Valdecus - which ThinkTank bag do you use, and how many film holders do you carry? Do you have a pic of the organized bag?

[Sal Santamaura]

This (except my RRS panning clamp is the lever lock version), mounted in the yoke of a 3-series carbon fiber Gitzo, is how I support my 8x10 Compact II with attached four inch square Kirk Arca-style quick release plate:


https://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-or-wtb/53245-burzynski-ball-head-rrs-pano-clamp.html


Unfortunately, both the Burzynski head and Kirk plate are out of production, but you might be able to find used samples.

[Bob Salomon]

This (except my RRS panning clamp is the lever lock version), mounted in the yoke of a 3-series carbon fiber Gitzo, is how I support my 8x10 Compact II with attached four inch square Kirk Arca-style quick release plate:


https://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-or-wtb/53245-burzynski-ball-head-rrs-pano-clamp.html


Unfortunately, both the Burzynski head and Kirk plate are out of production, but you might be able to find used samples.

That was quite a head, we were the US distributer for a few years. Unfortunately it never sold all that well.

[Sal Santamaura]

Exactly four and a half years ago I posted a picture of my Burznyski/RRS/Phillips setup:


https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?127616-Can-ball-head-weight-ratings-be-trusted&p=1299272&viewfull=1#post1299272

[angusparker]

Get an RSS tripod with the leveling base with the built in arca Swiss lever release clamp. Reís is perfect for ULF but overkill for an 8x10.

https://www.reallyrightstuff.com/ta-3-lb?quantity=1&custcol15=2

[angusparker]

Then for lenses The dream team for me is Fujinon A 360 f10, with a Schneider 150 SSXL f5.6. That’s normal and wide both with some movements.