Help me pick a couple of lenses for Sinar Norma please please

[Bobab]

So I seemingly ignored everyone's advice on this forum (stick with medium format they told me) and bought a Sinar Norma. The camera comes with a single lens board, but no lenses. I guess all I need is some film backs and lens to start shooting.

But I have no idea where to begin. I tried to do some research over the last couple of nights, but I am completely burnt out with the gear hunt over the last couple of months (enlarging equipment, LF camera and now lenses). My brain just can't seem to filter through the vast amount of information and the multitude of options and permutations to consider in the LF field. I am also surprised by the price of some of the lens offerings as I was under the impression that LF lens can be had for reasonable money.

Anyway, can anyone suggest 2-3 lenses that can be had for reasonable money that I can acquire in the EU (preferably). I would like to mainly shoot environmental portraits and so a suitable focal length range suggestion would be appreciated. Also, why are LF lenses so slow? It will take a very long focal length to achieve a shallow depth of field, if one is need, isn't it? The other relevant consideration is that I don't think I need a super sharp lens. I certainly don't want to pay a huge premium for it Is it possible to put a kit together for £150-200 per lens and get something decent?

Thank you for listening.

[Two23]

I suggest an older 240mm lens such as Dagor or Tessar for portraits, and a 135mm as your second.


Kent in SD

[Dan Fromm]

Not what you want to be told.

I just took a look on ebay.co.uk. LF lenses located in the EU are generally too expensive for you. Look for Fujinon LF lenses offered there and on ebay.com by sellers in Japan. They're reasonably priced and better than good enough.

None of us can tell you which focal lengths you'll find useful. Solve that problem yourself.

That said, since you're swamped with and confused by alternatives, consider 90 mm (f/8ers are less expensive and lighter than faster lenses), 150/5.6 (normal focal length), and 210/5.6 (heavy, commonly used "longer than normal"). All Fujinons.

[Two23]

Forgot to mention that as format size increases, lens DoF decreases. An f5.6 on 4x5 will perform similar to f2.8 on 35mm. On an 8x10 f5.6 has razor thin DoF.



Kent in SD

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49895945652_5f3741ced7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j28Li3)Sinar Norma Price List July 1966 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2j28Li3) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49895120703_a5af853a54_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j24x4M)Sinar Norma Price List July 1966 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2j24x4M) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

On page 2 of this price list (1966) are the lenses Sinar sold for use with the Norma.
You might want to consider these they are not always expensive.

For 200 Euros each you should not have a problem with most of these. You may want to expand your search to a global one. Perhaps a 90mm a 150mm and a 210mm.

[Bobab]

Forgot to mention that as format size increases, lens DoF decreases. An f5.6 on 4x5 will perform similar to f2.8 on 35mm. On an 8x10 f5.6 has razor thin DoF.

Kent in SD

Oh! Thank you for clarifying that. I always thought that depth of field is a function of the focal length and aperture size, and that the reason people talk about shallower depth of field on larger formats is that you get the same field of view from a longer lens. Good to know I don't have to chase super fast lenses then.


I suggest an older 240mm lens such as Dagor or Tessar for portraits, and a 135mm as your second.

Thanks. I see Dagor's going for £800 to £200. So very confusing. I'll read into a bit more to see whether I am looking at the right thing. And I'll start off with those two focal length (or maybe one, and pick the rest up if I am ever in Japan).


Not what you want to be told.

I just took a look on ebay.co.uk. LF lenses located in the EU are generally too expensive for you. Look for Fujinon LF lenses offered there and on ebay.com by sellers in Japan. They're reasonably priced and better than good enough.

None of us can tell you which focal lengths you'll find useful. Solve that problem yourself.

That said, since you're swamped with and confused by alternatives, consider 90 mm (f/8ers are less expensive and lighter than faster lenses), 150/5.6 (normal focal length), and 210/5.6 (heavy, commonly used "longer than normal"). All Fujinons.

Thanks Dan. Do you think that is a function of lenses being too expensive in EU/UK when compared to US/Japan or just a matter of what is available this very moment. It is odd that even German lenses are cheaper in Japan than in Europe. Maybe what I need to do is pick up one lens and use it for now, and I am every in Japan or the US complete my set.

I know I was asking too by asking that the forum picks a focal length and lens for me. But I guess my issue is that I have not done LF before, or environmental portraits and I don't know what is ideal, specially with the likely cropping. Perhaps a standard lens (135-150) to start off with is the way to go.

[Bobab]

...
On page 2 of this price list (1966) are the lenses Sinar sold for use with the Norma.
You might want to consider these they are not always expensive.

For 200 Euros each you should not have a problem with most of these. You may want to expand your search to a global one.

Brilliant! Thanks. Is there anything that I need to look out for other than whether there is a shutter included. If it is working and if there is any damage, etc to to the lens? I understand Sinar takes its own lens board so presumably I need to acquire these separately based on shutter type. I also know some things about image circle - won't want anything too wide as unlikely to use huge amounts of movement and will never use anything bigger than 4x5.

Is there anything else specific to LF that I need to be aware of? I read somewhere that people effectively never shoot at below 16 aperture. But I never understood why. Is that correct? And if so, are the wider lenses only useful for focusing?

[Bob Salomon]

“. . . Oh! Thank you for clarifying that. I always thought that depth of field is a function of the focal length and aperture size, and that the reason people talk about shallower depth of field on larger formats is that you get the same field of view from a longer lens. Good to know I don't have to chase super fast lenses then.“

Depth of field I’d dependent on focal length, aperture, circle of confusion and final image size only. It has nothing to do with film size.
If you set up 3 cameras at a scene and take a picture with each one, A 35mm, a 45 and an 810, at the same aperture, focused at the same spot and examine the film with a good loupe the depth of field, in front and behind the spot focused on, will Be exactly the same.

[Daniel Unkefer]

The 150mm f5.6 Chrome Symmar would be authentic vintage on the Norma, it needs a lensboard with a #0 hole.

With Norma you can buy a Norma Shutter and you don't need a shutter on each lens. You can buy barrel lenses which can found at good prices.

I have always used F22 as a minimum aperture with 4x5 Normas. Smaller than that and diffraction will slightly degrade the overall resolution.

I use both 9x12cm and 4x5" in my Normas. I would find Graphic or Lisco holders and the film of required size. And a cable release and dark cloth.

[Two23]

You will probably want something 210mm to 300mm for portrait. Divide by 3 to get a rough 35mm camera equivalent. Thus, 150mm is equivalent to 50mm Nikon, and a 240mm on 4x5 equivalent to 80mm, roughly.


Kent in

[Andrew Plume]

Good day Bobab

There's an awful amount of past posts on here in reply to posts for those who are/were building a kit for 4 x 5 work. in fact this is and has been an extensive resource

As Daniel has said you can overcome 'the shutter issue' by buying a Sinar shutter and you can also overcome 'the lens mounting issue' by buying one of these:-

http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/accessories/irislensboard

These 'iris lenses' are essential imo

Good luck and regards

Andrew

[Bobab]

With Norma you can buy a Norma Shutter and you don't need a shutter on each lens. You can buy barrel lenses which can found at good prices.
I use both 9x12cm and 4x5" in my Normas. I would find Graphic or Lisco holders and the film of required size. And a cable release and dark cloth.

What would happen if I want to buy a field camera at some point in the future? Is it relatively easy or even possible to get shutters for the barrel lenses?

Any reason for the Graphic and Lisco recommendations? Just wondering because there seems to be a few Fidelities and Toyos for sale in good condition.

[Bobab]

Good day Bobab

There's an awful amount of past posts on here in reply to posts for those who are/were building a kit for 4 x 5 work. in fact this is and has been an extensive resource

As Daniel has said you can overcome 'the shutter issue' by buying a Sinar shutter and you can also overcome 'the lens mounting issue' by buying one of these:-

http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/accessories/irislensboard

These 'iris lenses' are essential imo

Good luck and regards

Andrew

I know I know. :( I am sure my question seems lazy and has been asked a thousand times before. But it really feels to hard to figure out right now for my brain, and I just want to start shooting. Responses have been very helpful. At least pointing out a lot of things that I had not considered before.

[Bobab]

Just a follow up. If I see a lens with a "broken shutter" is that convertible to a barrel lens? Is that the prime candidate to purchase if at a good price?

Wow, these sinar shutters are selling for £300-700. Is that really worth it in terms of saving that I will then make on the lens?

[Andrew Plume]

Hello again 'Bobab'

My take on using 'barrel lenses' per se is, not to over focus (sorry no pun intended), say, on using any more modern Shutter, (there are some barrel lenses that have been put into shutters), old timer's such as me tend to use them, simply by removing the lens cap or perhaps by front mounting a Thornton-Pickard shutter............they used to be really cheap but I detect that prices are moving up

My advice FWIW is to take all of this very much on the slow side.............

Good luck and best regards

Andrew

[Two23]

Just a follow up. If I see a lens with a "broken shutter" is that convertible to a barrel lens? Is that the prime candidate to purchase if at a good price?

Wow, these sinar shutters are selling for £300-700. Is that really worth it in terms of saving that I will then make on the lens?


If you are shooting film a barrel lens adds to your complexity. The cheapest way to use one is to add about 10 stops of ND filter to bring exposure time down to about a second. Really though, I suggest avoiding barrel lenses and nonworking shutters and no, a Sinar shutter is not the best route for you. Look for an older lens 200 to 250mm like Tessar, Velostigmat, Kodak Ektar and the like for portraits. If not wanting something specifically for portraits a 150mm in Copal shutter is general purpose and relatively cheap.

Kent in SD

[Tin Can]

Buy almost any 150 mm f 5.6 LF lens IN A GOOD WORKING all BLACK Copal shutter in EU

Buy in person or eBay with PayPal only

Use it for a while for everything, then think carefully after 6 months

[alexmuir]

If you’re planning on making pictures of a type you haven’t made before, with a type of camera you haven’t used before, then it’s probably quite difficult for anyone, no matter how experienced, to give you accurate suggestions. A 150mm lens allows you to include a figure, and a bit of environment. A 210mm could do the same, with a closer figure. These are both cheap and plentiful on the UK market, and probably also in Europe. Get one in a working shutter, then work out if you need a lens board to match, in case the one with the camera doesn’t suit. The boards for a Norma are cheap. £15, or thereabouts in UK. Get one lens first, you may not need another. If you don’t like it, you can sell it on and buy another. Experience making pictures will help you decide which other lenses, if any, are needed.
Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Bobab]

Thanks for everyone. This has been all very helpful.

Alex, do you have any suggestions for good shops in the UK for fair priced large format gear? I have noticed that pricing can be quite variable.

[Andrew Plume]

I'm here in the UK and am very happy to assist

regards

andrew

[Bobab]

I'm here in the UK and am very happy to assist

regards

andrew

Thanks Andrew! Do you have a camera store or were you going to give me suggestions?

[Bernice Loui]

Noted that environmental portrait is the image-print goal. Typically environmental portraits would involve a medium wide focal length lens. In the world of 4x5, typical medium wide focal length would be 110mm to 150mm with 135mm being some where in the middle of all this.

Given that requirement, get a modern 135mm f5.6 or 150mm f5.6 (often considered a "normal" focal length lens for 45x) Plasmat with a proven and know good shutter from schneider-Fujinon-Rodenstock-Nikon. The 135mm f5.6 from any of these four will do more than good enough for now. Cosmetically ugly but fully good optics and shutter are often a bargain over a pretty example. Reason for the modern lens, you're on a learning curve which means tolerance for problems with shutter and other related is going to greatly complete the learning process and will be a barrier to going up the learning curve.

~Skip all that hardware hunting, get one lens, good film holders, film and all required LF accessories (dark cloth, light meter, tripos and ...) burn film.~

This is THE only way, to learn by doing. Hunting for hardware is not going to produce any images or prints. Learning to use a view camera and producing images is the goal, all that gear hunting is beyond counter-productive and not worth obsessing over.

Once you're comfy with that one lens, that is when to consider another focal length.

If out of focus rendition is of interest, that would typically involve a longer than normal focal length lens. Once you're up on the view camera learning curve and comfy with that initial lens and image making process, consider adding a longer focal length lens to achieve what is the common out of focus image rendition. Suggest something like a 240mm, 300mm f4.5 Schneider Xenar since you're in the EU as they are common enough and not too costly. Know there are LOTs of f4.5 Tessar formula (Xenar is one of many) lenses made made over the many decades of view camera production. Out of focus or what is perceived to be in-focus with sheet film formats (4x5 and larger) are not the same as smaller film formats. This aspect of lens image rendition is not uniform based on f-stop alone, focal length and film format size are two significant factors on out of focus impressions based on lens f-stop.

What about films to be used, film processing and image-print making?


Bernice






bought a Sinar Norma. The camera comes with a single lens board, but no lenses. I guess all I need is some film backs and lens to start shooting.

But I have no idea where to begin. I tried to do some research over the last couple of nights, but I am completely burnt out with the gear hunt over the last couple of months (enlarging equipment, LF camera and now lenses). My brain just can't seem to filter through the vast amount of information and the multitude of options and permutations to consider in the LF field. I am also surprised by the price of some of the lens offerings as I was under the impression that LF lens can be had for reasonable money.

Anyway, can anyone suggest 2-3 lenses that can be had for reasonable money that I can acquire in the EU (preferably).

I would like to mainly shoot environmental portraits and so a suitable focal length range suggestion would be appreciated.

Also, why are LF lenses so slow? It will take a very long focal length to achieve a shallow depth of field, if one is need, isn't it? The other relevant consideration is that I don't think I need a super sharp lens.

I certainly don't want to pay a huge premium for it Is it possible to put a kit together for £150-200 per lens and get something decent?

Thank you for listening.

[Daniel Unkefer]

What would happen if I want to buy a field camera at some point in the future? Is it relatively easy or even possible to get shutters for the barrel lenses?

Any reason for the Graphic and Lisco recommendations? Just wondering because there seems to be a few Fidelities and Toyos for sale in good condition.

The Norma Shutter is an option to be aware of up front, maybe just go with a good working 150mm lens is shutter for now to get started. If you decide further down the road you can add the Norma Shutter (or any other of the humungeous number of parts available). But perhaps not for now , you need time and experience shooting and then add the Norma accessories you might need. You will know what you need by using the camera and I do suggest studying the instruction book. Many users of field cameras have created adapters for using the Sinar shutters on wooden cameras. Where there is a will there is a way. Perhaps buying from a local store that allows returns is a good way to make sure that's what you want to get started.

As stated above, What about films to be used, film processing and image-print making? Those are important considerations.


I suggest keeping it simple. The 150mm f5.6 chrome Schneider Symmar would be my choice, but that's just me. There are a plethora of 150s available that will fit with the right lens sized board.

Fidelities are good too, as are Toyos, and the Liscos and Graphics and some others. Condition and price are the criteria.

Take copious notes. Expect to make mistakes, that is how you learn what works and what to watch out for.

And enjoy the process! :)

[Exploring Large Format]

Bobab, another LF beginner here.

I started with a field camera, migrating now to Norma for studio. The Norma is such a gem, eh?

I went with a 150mm and 210mm (each within your price range), then impulse bought a 250mm Rodenstock Imagon. But so many great choices of lenses. One day, i will buy a Sinar shutter. But for now, lenses in all-black (mostly), working Copal shutters allows me to keep things simple as i get used to many new tools.

Just about everything I've learned is from this Forum or books and articles suggested here. Pretty much every question you have has multiple answers and opinions; i often google search topic then add "Large Format Photography Forum" to my search. Find that easier than using forum search.

The other tip i intended to follow but ignored at my peril too many times: Take notes of every exposure! This really helps with your thinking on lens needs and so much more. Allows me to integrate my book knowledge--what i learn here and elsewhere--with my practice with cameras.

Enjoy!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Greg]

When I was a student at RIT in the mis 1970s, the basic 4x5 view camera outfit, that we signed out, consisted of Calumet monorail camera and one lens... a 210mm Symmar.

[archphotofisher]

don't forget about this chart 205090

[Bobab]

Thanks again. I am definitely tired of equipment hunting (It hasn't just been the camera. It's been developing equipment, paper, chemicals, enlarger, scanning setup, printer etc). I will go with a 135 or 150 lens as suggested and add later if needed.

In terms of film, I don't think I can afford to shoot colour, so will probably keep the LF for B&W for now. The Fomapan 100 was the one I had in mind. I will develop my own film. Need to get a tank for 4x5 - was thinking the Jobo). Using the Moersch Eco film developer. I don't see myself getting a 4x5 enlarger though. Just don't have the space for it. At the moment looking for a Durst m605/m670 to use for both medium format, and as a copystand to do DSLR scans of the 4x5 Negs. Take multiple shots and stitch. Still looking into my options for negative holders and lightbox setup for the DSLR scanner. Maybe some contact printing, but I imagine 4x5 is too small for great contact printing. Probably print on a canon pro 100 if I can find one used at a good price.

The Norma still hasn't arrived yet. I think tomorrow is the day. Very excited.

[alexmuir]

Thanks for everyone. This has been all very helpful.

Alex, do you have any suggestions for good shops in the UK for fair priced large format gear? I have noticed that pricing can be quite variable.

I normally look at Ffordes who are in Beauly near Inverness. I check their website. I also check on eBay UK.
Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Bobab]

Have I understood correctly that something like this would need a sinar shutter?

https://kamerastore.com/product/rodenstock-150mm-f56-sironar-with-sinar-db-lens-board-en/?gclid=CjwKCAjw88v3BRBFEiwApwLeva6Z1U5xX48WqckIXI6pvIYHNGxdm7MeW7CPW17i_sdtiwbaOVNTyBoCYAIQAvD_BwE

[Andrew Plume]

Yes it will, unless you opt for the other alternative i.e. by removing the lens cap

And I've just sent two Private Messages

regards

Andrew

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schneider-Kreuznach-Symmar-150mm-F5-6-265mm-F12-Large-Format-Camera-Barrel-Lens/223759602795?hash=item34191c946b:g:li8AAOSwrNRdO4B8

Here is what I look for. Black 150mm Schneider f5.6 in barrel, the black ones are a little younger in vintage than the chrome silver. I don't see any "Schneideritis" which is a loss of black coating around the outer edges of the lens. Old Fuji an Rodenstocks can have the 'itis, it looks bad but dosen't affect quality. The price is not bad, however you will need to add a #0 retaining ring (easy to find). This lens is the correct vintage for the Sinar Norma shutter. Also the early Schneider lenses are "convertible". If you unscrew the front cell, the lens becomes a 265mm F12 of decent quality. It's been recommended to use an orange filter when using it in tele mode, it improves it's quality.

That lens you show is a DB auto Sinar lens, which came out much later than Norma. I've no experience with DB lenses, they did make a shutter later on that specifically takes the DB lenses. I wonder if that is workable with the early Norma shutter?? I know that the later shutter had an iris mechanism incorporated into them. Hope all this helps!