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View Full Version : What can cause TINY TINY white spots on a neg?



ericantonio
14-Jun-2020, 20:23
Hello folks.
This is the first for me. Been developing a LONG time. Recently, I scanned 4 sheets of 8x10. All of them had TINY TINY TINY little white spots on them. I can see them when I zoom in with my graphics editor. I checked with some negs from earlier this year and zoomed way in...nothing...All cleano clean. I checked from some 4x5's I did a few weeks ago (at least I think it was a few weeks, could have been 1 month, you know quarantine, nobody to talk to, seems like 1 month ago was yesterday). Not even sure how old the fixer I used was, but I don't think it was that old. I am using Clayton fixer.


I *DID* notice that when I poured the fixer onto the tray, there was some little black things in there, I mean, visible to the naked eye. So I poured it back in, let it sit, and poured it back onto a tray making sure I go slow and I didn't use the entire 1 Liter so the stuff on the bottom didn't come out.

I did another test, thinking maybe I didn't add enough flo. So this time I added a little more photo-flo before hanging. NOPE, tiny tiny.

Then I processed a roll of 120 film with the same stuff. Same developer, same stop, and same fix. Besides the usual scanner dust, I didn't see the tiny tiny white spots. I tried scanning the 120 film as much as I can so I can get a huge big tif file so I can zoom in. But I didn't see any. It could be cause I agitate it a little more in a tank that I would with LF in a tray? I don't know. Thinking out loud and hoping to get some ideas from you guys.

Also, I cleaned the scanner glass with Windex and same same.

Hoping you can see the image will be big enough from the screenshot I did with the 8x10 neg

Hoping someone has seen this before. I sure haven't.

http://www.ihave3thumbs.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/screenshot.png

Here's my method:
I don't do much 8x10's so I do it in the bathub.
1 sheet at a time. Face up.
So dev (face up), stop (face up) fix (face up). Sit in Fix for a while.

8x10 trays except stop bath, which I use as a pre-soak, and replace for next sheet.

Two23
14-Jun-2020, 21:26
Could it be the defect is in the film itself?


Kent in SD

koraks
14-Jun-2020, 22:02
Mix some fresh fixer and give it another go. Used fixer tends to throw down silver particles under certain conditions and those may stick to/in the emulsion quite firmly.

ericantonio
15-Jun-2020, 05:51
Could it be the defect is in the film itself?


Kent in SD

It could be but the overall image doesn't look to bad when scaled down to 1000 pixels wide. The shots I took with it early in the year are supah cleano.

ericantonio
15-Jun-2020, 05:52
Mix some fresh fixer and give it another go. Used fixer tends to throw down silver particles under certain conditions and those may stick to/in the emulsion quite firmly.

I will try that today. Sucks that I have onto the 6ths sheet to try it. Oh well....at least I'm saving gas $ by not driving these days.

I'll try to do it today.

mdarnton
15-Jun-2020, 06:33
Based on your margins, it looks like those are BLACK spots on the negative. And if they are white spots on the neg, do you mean white, or do you actually mean clear? Obviously the cause is going to be completely different, depending.

Gary Beasley
15-Jun-2020, 07:04
A coffee filter will help in many cases of floating particulates. If you dont have a filter funnel scrounge a filter holder from an old drip coffee maker, could even use the glass pot.

ericantonio
15-Jun-2020, 08:35
Based on your margins, it looks like those are BLACK spots on the negative. And if they are white spots on the neg, do you mean white, or do you actually mean clear? Obviously the cause is going to be completely different, depending.

Excellent question and great observation. Thanks. They look like tiny black specs on the neg with my loupe and light box. Actually some of it look like, maybe it's the way light is reflecting, but I can swear some look like tiny tiny purple spots.

I managed to setup a quick shot this morning in the kitchen and I bought some more blackout curtains for the bathroom door. Looks like my new place is not bad for doing it in the tub. I don't have a shower door or bath curtains so doing it in the tub is ez pz.

ericantonio
15-Jun-2020, 08:37
A coffee filter will help in many cases of floating particulates. If you dont have a filter funnel scrounge a filter holder from an old drip coffee maker, could even use the glass pot.

Was just thinking about this this morning while walking my senior bulldog.

I made some new Fixer, Clayton brand, and I just happened to have an extra brand new Amber 32oz bottle that I was using for C41. I don't see myself doing C41 anytime soon so may I'll repurpose those bottles into B&W chem bottles.

paulbarden
15-Jun-2020, 10:46
As others have suggested, I suspect this is from junk suspended in the (used) fix. Time to make fresh.

Q: how long do you keep fixer before discarding it, and do you use it to exhaustion? (using exhaustion tester)

ericantonio
15-Jun-2020, 10:53
As others have suggested, I suspect this is from junk suspended in the (used) fix. Time to make fresh.

Q: how long do you keep fixer before discarding it, and do you use it to exhaustion? (using exhaustion tester)

That's too much work. I just fix and take out film like in rolls, and if it still looks pink after a few minutes, I just mix a new batch. Liquid fix is easy not like old days with a bucket, a metal spool and a bag of Kodak fixer. But I don't recall doing much film from this last batch. And I've used spent fixer before and never saw anything like this.

I'm about to go in and take a break from "work" and see what happens in a few hours after it has dried.

Doremus Scudder
15-Jun-2020, 11:18
You likely have particulates from the bad fixer adhered to the film. If you have a scrap negative with the defect, you can try scraping at the spots and see if you can dislodge the particles (just for confirmation that this is the problem; they stick really hard to the emulsion and cleaning such a negative successfully is practically impossible).

The solution for the future, of course, is to use fresh fixer. Keep in mind that working solutions of fixer can go bad and throw particulates (sulfur) with age even if the capacity of the fixer has not yet been reached. Filtering will help, but it's better to toss fixer and mix fresh if you see anything floating around in it.

Best,

Doremus

ericantonio
15-Jun-2020, 11:19
Keep in mind that working solutions of fixer can go bad and throw particulates (sulfur) with age even if the capacity of the fixer has not yet been reached.

I did not know this!!! Thanks!

Processing done with a test shot. Hopefully will be dry after lunch.

Doremus Scudder
15-Jun-2020, 11:25
Eric,

Take a look at the tech sheet for Ilford Rapid Fixer here: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1833/product/711/

The general information applies to all fixers of this type (Clayton too). Read especially about capacities and working solution life.

Best,

Doremus

Willie
15-Jun-2020, 13:21
Are you using a water filter for the water you use in mixing developer?

Gary Samson
15-Jun-2020, 14:04
204730Are you using Fomapan 100 film? I have identified a problem with a box of this film (4x5 inch) 50 sheets, expiration date April, 2022, batch no. 021354-03, purchased from B&H. See the attached scans of the negative.
204728

ericantonio
15-Jun-2020, 16:09
204730Are you using Fomapan 100 film? I have identified a problem with a box of this film (4x5 inch) 50 sheets, expiration date April, 2022, batch no. 021354-03, purchased from B&H. See the attached scans of the negative.
204728

Hmmmm, this is VERY INTERESTING.

ericantonio
15-Jun-2020, 16:13
Welp, it looks the same today. I made a new batch of fixer. I used a BRAND NEW CONTAINER of an Amber Glass type. I used hc110 Dilution B, so I can have a quick 6 min processing time. Gary, I am using Arista EDU 400 which internet lore says it is the same as Fomapan. Yes that purple on the lightbox looks like mine as well, and the tiny white dots. And doesn't look too bad on the image, but when zoomed in yes.

I'll have to see what other film I have in my stash and make another test.

Here are the full size image and a zoomed in to see the white dots.

Zoomed in:
http://www.ihave3thumbs.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/screenshot_1.png

Normal view:
http://www.ihave3thumbs.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/2020-06-15-810-ektar_773.jpg

ericantonio
15-Jun-2020, 16:24
Well, this isn't good. I seem to have only this one box of Arista EDU 400 film, expires 2021/09.

Seems like it's pretty new, I may have used HP5 earlier this year when I didn't get problems. Man, this sucks.

Gary Samson
15-Jun-2020, 16:42
Well, this isn't good. I seem to have only this one box of Arista EDU 400 film, expires 2021/09.

Seems like it's pretty new, I may have used HP5 earlier this year when I didn't get problems. Man, this sucks.

I bought the Fomapan 100 because I read many good things about this film and wanted to test it. I processed several exposed sheets in Pyrocat M and saw the spots on the film with a loupe. I ran another test developing the Fomapan film with Ilford FP4+ film, the Fomapan had spots the Ilford film was absolutely clean. I also processed the Fomapan in Kodak Xtol and in Rodinal, same results. It's a defect in manufacturing.

ericantonio
15-Jun-2020, 16:50
I bought the Fomapan 100 because I read many good things about this film and wanted to test it. I processed several exposed sheets in Pyrocat M and saw the spots on the film with a loupe. I ran another test developing the Fomapan film with Ilford FP4+ film, the Fomapan had spots the Ilford film was absolutely clean. I also processed the Fomapan in Kodak Xtol and in Rodinal, same results. It's a defect in manufacturing.

ARghhh!!! I'm bumming. Stores are out of HP5+, next batch August 1st.

Two23
15-Jun-2020, 17:40
I bought the Fomapan 100 because I read many good things about this film and wanted to test it. I processed several exposed sheets in Pyrocat M and saw the spots on the film with a loupe. I ran another test developing the Fomapan film with Ilford FP4+ film, the Fomapan had spots the Ilford film was absolutely clean. I also processed the Fomapan in Kodak Xtol and in Rodinal, same results. It's a defect in manufacturing.


This is what I was suggesting. The clue was his 120 film came out clean.


Kent in SD

ericantonio
15-Jun-2020, 18:01
This is what I was suggesting. The clue was his 120 film came out clean.


Kent in SD

Right! I had to do a little more testing. bumming man.

grat
15-Jun-2020, 18:52
I knew the Foma 100 had a history of emulsion issues, but I hadn't heard of it striking the Arista Ultra 400 until now.

Might want to contact freestyle and see if they'll send you another box. I've got a box that I'm halfway through, and it's been fine.

ericantonio
16-Jun-2020, 06:21
I knew the Foma 100 had a history of emulsion issues, but I hadn't heard of it striking the Arista Ultra 400 until now.

Might want to contact freestyle and see if they'll send you another box. I've got a box that I'm halfway through, and it's been fine.

I will try that today. Although, I don't know how to begin a conversation with someone at Freestyle regarding the matter. Guess I can ask if the emulsion # on box has had some call-ins regarding it.

Wish me luck!!

earlnash
16-Jun-2020, 07:27
Another possibility is microbubbles formed by the acid stop bath. I've always used a water stop bath for this reason.

ericantonio
16-Jun-2020, 08:39
Another possibility is microbubbles formed by the acid stop bath. I've always used a water stop bath for this reason.

Thank you, yes, I've heard of that. I haven't used acid bath in over 20 years :)

grat
16-Jun-2020, 11:46
While I personally would rather stop the developer, rather than coax it gently off the film, I was doing some reading up on this, and one cause could be hard water, or particulates in the fixer.

If you run your fingertips across the negative, can you feel the spots? I would think if it's an emulsion failure, you should be able to feel it. Of course, particulates might also feel like that. I have no experience with this, so I admit, I'm guessing. :)

ericantonio
16-Jun-2020, 12:42
While I personally would rather stop the developer, rather than coax it gently off the film, I was doing some reading up on this, and one cause could be hard water, or particulates in the fixer.

If you run your fingertips across the negative, can you feel the spots? I would think if it's an emulsion failure, you should be able to feel it. Of course, particulates might also feel like that. I have no experience with this, so I admit, I'm guessing. :)

I can't feel it with my fingertips. But thank you for the suggestion.

I called Freestyle and they said they will talk to someone about it. They took my info and I gave them the emulsion number and expiration date. Hope this works out.

ericantonio
16-Jun-2020, 18:23
Just an update on this problem. I talked to a couple of people at Freestyle and finally the manager who was great. They talked to the supplier and wanted to know more. So I am adding the images to a dropbox link for them to see. I also scanned one as a color positive so they can see the purple dots. It really is purple!! So bizarre. I figure if they have the .tif file it shows that I'm not manipulating anything and you can really see the difference on the spots vs scanner dust.

I am packing it up for Priority mail to them. I live in SoCal so they should get it by End of Week. And they will send me a new box! Faith in Humanity and help from an old book I read years ago....How to win Friends and Inflluence people. Never call mad and demand a refund. That's just never going to work.

Thanks all for all your help and suggestions. Also, I learned that I couldn't take a photo of the neg on the lightbox to show the purple and I kept thinking "how would Winnie the Pooh do this?". Ohhhh scan it as a positive and then you can see the purple!

If anyone wants to see the purple spots, send me a DM and I can send you a link to the Dropbox .tif files

FYI, it was Arista Edu 400 film, expires 2021-09

Merg Ross
16-Jun-2020, 22:29
From my experience, Freestyle is good to work with on such matters. I had a problem a few years ago with a paper that was not behaving as it should. They replaced the entire order without a problem. Of course, it probably helps to have been a loyal customer for many years!

I hope you get tis sorted out, and report back. Good luck!

richydicky
17-Jun-2020, 06:05
204730Are you using Fomapan 100 film? I have identified a problem with a box of this film (4x5 inch) 50 sheets, expiration date April, 2022, batch no. 021354-03, purchased from B&H. See the attached scans of the negative.
204728

Oh dear. That is exactly the issue I had with the last two rolls of Fomapan 200 in 120 size. I love this film and so far have had no problems with sheets but I haven't had a good roll in 120 from the last 3 years. One lot had a backing paper, storage issue, which put me off buying again and I never heard back from Foma about it; then at the end of last year I tried another two rolls and experienced the problem you have detailed.

I need to place an order for both 4x5 and 8x10 but am very reluctant to do so now. Have you contacted Foma about this or B&H?.

Richard

Edit: Actually I've looked at mine and realise that your marks are opposite to mine and that of the OP who is reporting WHITE marks on the NEGATIVE resulting in black marks on a positive image.

Gary Samson
17-Jun-2020, 09:33
Oh dear. That is exactly the issue I had with the last two rolls of Fomapan 200 in 120 size. I love this film and so far have had no problems with sheets but I haven't had a good roll in 120 from the last 3 years. One lot had a backing paper, storage issue, which put me off buying again and I never heard back from Foma about it; then at the end of last year I tried another two rolls and experienced the problem you have detailed.

I need to place an order for both 4x5 and 8x10 but am very reluctant to do so now. Have you contacted Foma about this or B&H?.

Richard

Edit: Actually I've looked at mine and realise that your marks are opposite to mine and that of the OP who is reporting WHITE marks on the NEGATIVE resulting in black marks on a positive image.

The OP reported tiny white dots on the positive image and purple dots on the negative image that create the white dots in the positive image. Please see my original post.

ericantonio
26-Jun-2020, 12:37
FYI, got a new box of 8x10 EDU 400 today via UPS. Freestyle was able to replace. Hope they run a test with that emulstion so it doesn't seem I'm really crazy!

Pringles
25-Aug-2020, 08:30
Any updates on this? I just did my first test shot from a box of fomapan 100 (4x5) last night and got the purple spots. If I’d seen this thread then maybe I would have just bought fp4+ again instead.

I did 1 shot of foma100 at 50 and my last sheet of fp4+ at iso 100 and I definitely like fomapan better... other than unreliability.

I was hoping someone would come on with a solution to dissolve the spots :-/

ericantonio
25-Aug-2020, 09:54
Any updates on this? I just did my first test shot from a box of fomapan 100 (4x5) last night and got the purple spots. If I’d seen this thread then maybe I would have just bought fp4+ again instead.

I did 1 shot of foma100 at 50 and my last sheet of fp4+ at iso 100 and I definitely like fomapan better... other than unreliability.

I was hoping someone would come on with a solution to dissolve the spots :-/

Yes, the update is I sent it back to Freestyle and they got me a new box. Unfortunately, there isn't a way to dissolve the spots. Like the old Prego commerical says "It's' in there".

Jim Noel
25-Aug-2020, 11:26
"Sit in Fix for a while."
Not agitating in the fix can allow sediment of undissolved chemicals and other materials to settle on the film. Agitation is a good thing to do until the filmis hung.

Pat Kearns
27-Aug-2020, 13:45
I agree with Doremus on the particulate matter in the chemicals. I've had that happen to me before. I mix all my chemicals with distilled water, use developer as a one shot, and when I use the fixer I filter it before use to reduce any particulate matter. That resolved the problems for me.

urnem57
1-Feb-2021, 21:46
Lots of good advice here. Is there a difference between coffee filters and a filter funnel w/filter paper? How many microns of filtration is a good idea? I just mixed a new batch of Legacy Pro Fixer and there were black specks, a wood colored speck, and some other flotsam floating in it. I filtered it with a coffee filter before pouring into a clean jug. The polypropylene graduate is completely clear. If the filtering route doesn’t work, I’m going back to liquid Kodak or Ilford.

Pat Kearns
1-Feb-2021, 23:06
I use a regular coffee filter and filter the fixer before use and again after use. That might be considered as excessive but it works for me. YMMV and good luck finding the best method for you.

urnem57
4-Feb-2021, 18:16
See this thread, too. https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?160844-Tiny-Black-Specs-on-Arista-EDU-Ultra-100/page3&highlight=Rodinal+1%3A25+1%3A50