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Ethan
14-Jun-2020, 13:44
Hey people, I know a wet plate photographer in my area who has offered to show me the ropes of tintype photography, and I’m getting pretty excited about it. I was thinking that having a large flash might be useful for some photos due to the low light sensitivity, but I just wouldn’t feel right using a modern flash for an old process like this. Once my train of thought starts going, it gets difficult to stop, so I got wondering, what if I used an old powder flash like people actually did use for plate photography? Have any of you ever used one of those flashes for plate photography, and does anyone know any resources about how they work? I wasn’t able to come across any for sale on the internet, but in my mind all it would have to be is an aluminum L channel at 45 degrees with a handle and lighter function built in. However, messing with pyrotechnics without doing a whole lot of research does not seem like a good idea to me, so I would love it if any of you know of some resources on old powder flashes.

Dugan
14-Jun-2020, 13:53
You might just want to file it under
"Bad Ideas"....way too dangerous.

Two23
14-Jun-2020, 14:03
I looked into it, but it's just so ridiculously dangerous that even I have dropped the idea. Many buildings were set on fire from this. I also thought of just using it outdoors at night but even simply storing the volatile stuff is very hazardous. I'm not fooling with it (or cyanide fixer.)


Kent in SD

Ethan
14-Jun-2020, 14:15
You are probably correct, I wonder how difficult it would be to put the lamps from a modern flash into an old flash lamp to get the same aesthetic

Tin Can
14-Jun-2020, 14:45
Yes, not advised. And it's not the best light to use...

There is a very good tutorial on You Tube I just watched, spooky as the guy looks like I used to....you can find it, read listen carefully to what he does and says

I am impressed by his documentation!

He tests with 100 asa film which is fine, but wet plate will need dangerous amounts of powder

I have a complete historical kit with powder and now I know a lot more, yet I will never use it. Not for sale at any price.

So, thanks for asking here and I am glad you asked.

Big flashbulbs will work and produce more light safely for wet plate, but I wouldn't use the big ones on people, they can shatter/explode ruining eyes and face

I also have the right flashbulbs and accessorizes

One golf ball sized flashbulb matches my Einstein Flash at full power, you will need multiples

My flash bulb teacher here, passed away not long ago, RIP Jac

I did document flash bulbs and my powder kit years ago here, but I would need to search for it too...

Please be careful in all things

Two23
14-Jun-2020, 14:48
The flash powder is magnesium. Flash bulbs are magnesium wire encased in a glass bulb with oxygen gas. Even the small #25 bulbs put out a lot of light.


Kent in SD

paulbarden
14-Jun-2020, 14:53
You are probably correct, I wonder how difficult it would be to put the lamps from a modern flash into an old flash lamp to get the same aesthetic

For wet plate portraiture in-studio, photographers typically use an electronic flash like a Speedotron 4803, which - as you've probably guessed - delivers 4800 watt-seconds of light. This is pretty much the minimum of light you need if you are going to use any kind of light modifier (to produce flattering light) like a softbox or a beauty dish. That is a LOT of light. The light produced by a Magnesium (or perchlorate) flash is likely far less than what a Speedotron 4803 puts out. And lets bear in mind that the materials are extremely dangerous to handle and use, and I believe you have to have a license to own and use "mixed binary explosives". What's the point in pursuing an extremely dangerous technique, solely for the sake of being "authentic"? Your plates will be authentic, regardless of which lighting technique you use. Nobody but you and the subject of the photo is going to know how you lit the scene.

I once tried lighting a studio still life with a Vivitar 283 set on maximum output. I used a Petzval lens with an aperture of f3.1 and I popped the flash at the subject 30 times from no more than 24" away. How did it turn out? Zero exposure. Thirty pops from 2 feet away didn't even begin to register an exposure. Just FYI.

Two23
14-Jun-2020, 15:07
I once tried lighting a studio still life with a Vivitar 283 set on maximum output. I used a Petzval lens with an aperture of f3.1 and I popped the flash at the subject 30 times from no more than 24" away. How did it turn out? Zero exposure. Thirty pops from 2 feet away didn't even begin to register an exposure. Just FYI.


I've done very little indoor wet plate, partly because I don't really have a place to do it, and partly because my wife has banned it from the house.:eek: When I did try it I used two White Lighting X3200 at full power, no modifier, from 2 feet away. (2700ws) I ended up having to pop them twice using an f3.5 Petzval.


Kent in SD

paulbarden
14-Jun-2020, 15:25
I've done very little indoor wet plate, partly because I don't really have a place to do it, and partly because my wife has banned it from the house.:eek: When I did try it I used two White Lighting X3200 at full power, no modifier, from 2 feet away. (2700ws) I ended up having to pop them twice using an f3.5 Petzval.


Kent in SD

Yep, I'm not surprised!

Dugan
14-Jun-2020, 15:43
Nobody has mentioned the huge cloud of smoke and soot generated yet, either.
Oh, wait...I just did.

Bob Salomon
14-Jun-2020, 16:06
For wet plate portraiture in-studio, photographers typically use an electronic flash like a Speedotron 4803, which - as you've probably guessed - delivers 4800 watt-seconds of light. This is pretty much the minimum of light you need if you are going to use any kind of light modifier (to produce flattering light) like a softbox or a beauty dish. That is a LOT of light. The light produced by a Magnesium (or perchlorate) flash is likely far less than what a Speedotron 4803 puts out. And lets bear in mind that the materials are extremely dangerous to handle and use, and I believe you have to have a license to own and use "mixed binary explosives". What's the point in pursuing an extremely dangerous technique, solely for the sake of being "authentic"? Your plates will be authentic, regardless of which lighting technique you use. Nobody but you and the subject of the photo is going to know how you lit the scene.

I once tried lighting a studio still life with a Vivitar 283 set on maximum output. I used a Petzval lens with an aperture of f3.1 and I popped the flash at the subject 30 times from no more than 24" away. How did it turn out? Zero exposure. Thirty pops from 2 feet away didn't even begin to register an exposure. Just FYI.
Actually the capacitors can store 4800 WS.. since WS are not output you can never get that many out of it.

paulbarden
14-Jun-2020, 16:29
Actually the capacitors can store 4800 WS.. since WS are not output you can never get that many out of it.

Noted. Thanks.

LabRat
14-Jun-2020, 16:29
Unfortunately, the book "Cyanide and Spirits" by Bill Jay is a scarce book now, it should be required reading by those ready to embark on using 19th century processes... The reprints online usually just cover the spirit photography aspects, but the other half of the book outline how hazardous processes were in the "bad-old-days"...

After the hazards of wet plate transitioned to safer forms of dry plate, flashpowder came in to vogue and accounted for new forms of death and dismemberment for photographers...

The "future" couldn't come fast enough back in those days...

Steve K

gnd2
14-Jun-2020, 16:32
Nobody has mentioned the huge cloud of smoke and soot generated yet, either.
Oh, wait...I just did.

Hasn't anyone else seen the old movies where everyone is singed and blackened with soot after the flash goes off? :p

gnd2
14-Jun-2020, 16:33
Actually the capacitors can store 4800 WS.. since WS are not output you can never get that many out of it.

At least he correctly stated "watt-seconds" and not watts or watts/second like most people :rolleyes:

Bob Salomon
14-Jun-2020, 16:36
At least he correctly stated "watt-seconds" and not watts or watts/second like most people :rolleyes:

Could have said joules as well.

Greg
14-Jun-2020, 16:44
When I was a student at RIT in the mid 1970s, one of the professors wanted to do a demonstration of using a Magnesium Powder Flash at night. Remember it had to be done outside in a part of the parking lot that was roped off. He had to have the local Fire Department present, so arranged it with them to be a training exercise on their weekly meeting night. Ignition had to be done remotely per the Fire Department. When the whole thing came to fruition, and the magnesium power went off, the power company dispatched a repair truck thinking that a transformer had blown up... no one thought of alerting them to the event.

Jim Noel
15-Jun-2020, 10:39
The flash powder is magnesium. Flash bulbs are magnesium wire encased in a glass bulb with oxygen gas. Even the small #25 bulbs put out a lot of light.


Kent in SD

A #25 bulb puts out more light than any hand held electronic unit. Probably even more than most amateur priced 110V units.
I used flash powder in the 1930's when it could be bought at any camera store. IT IS HIGHLY DANGEROUS. EVEN A SMALL EXCESS CAN EASILY SET A CEILING ON FIRE IN THE AVERAGE HOME. EVEN OUTDOORS IT MAY EXPLODE PREMATURELY CAUSING SEVERE BURNS. Don't even consider it.

Drew Wiley
15-Jun-2020, 12:39
Even outdoors? That's how entire towns get burnt down in dry weather, and not just your ceiling. Ordinary fireworks are bad enough. Sounds like a formula for getting hauled off to prison.

MrFujicaman
15-Jun-2020, 16:13
I'm going to agree with Drew on this one. This sounds like something that's going to end badly.

LabRat
15-Jun-2020, 16:48
For the "historically correct", wet plate and flashpowder were different eras...

Steve K

Two23
15-Jun-2020, 18:11
For the "historically correct", wet plate and flashpowder were different eras...

Steve K


Yes, Brassai was using magnesium flash powder in the 1920s shooting dry plates with his Voigtlander Bergheil.


Kent in SD

Duolab123
15-Jun-2020, 19:03
As long as you are getting crazy, try 800 mesh Aluminum and ammonium perchlorate. This is the stuff, when diluted with rubber that goes into sub launched ballistic missiles. All you need is a spark. The shock wave might tip over your camera and give your subject a nice tan.

Just get a flash holder, put 1 25B bulb in the holder and super glue another half dozen to the igniter bulb, you will be seeing spots for days.

By the way, I was reading in an old Pop Mechanics photo book, supposedly you're to ask your subjects what color spots the see after a flash shot. If white they didn't blink, if red that means they had their eyes closed :rolleyes::eek:. I've got to try that sometime.

Drew Wiley
15-Jun-2020, 19:19
First of all, don't be surprised if you get a visit from the FBI after ordering such chemicals. I'm not kidding whatsoever. The guy down the block they called on a few years ago was in fact making bombs in his basement, and I don't care if he's locked up in the nuthouse or a Fed Pen, as long as he never gets out. Second, in this State at least, anyone in their right mind would instantly call 911. Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of fire damage, along with substantial loss of life, has occurred from less deliberate mistakes than something like this. All it takes is a little dry grass and windy conditions exactly like what is happening right now to create a catastrophe. Over 200 local fires had to be put out the last 4th of July just from firecrackers, which are themselves illegal. Model rocketeers have to join a club which fires from a bare beach toward the ocean.

Jody_S
15-Jun-2020, 23:07
If you want to know what it feels like to set yourself on fire, take up welding.

Ari
16-Jun-2020, 08:23
Ethan, I think the consensus is "Maybe not a good idea to try it...".

Tin Can
16-Jun-2020, 08:38
I am a welder. One of my co-workers taught me by example how welders often set other welders on fire as a practical joke

Crazy David was a great teacher, he could fix anything. He learned in USSR and our employer bought his freedom. He was welcomed in Skokie





If you want to know what it feels like to set yourself on fire, take up welding.

Eric Woodbury
16-Jun-2020, 11:05
Could have said joules as well.

Don't forget the erg.

Ethan
16-Jun-2020, 12:12
Ethan, I think the consensus is "Maybe not a good idea to try it...".

Yea, I'm starting to get that impression...

Tin Can
16-Jun-2020, 15:03
I watched a bunch of YT and still not doing it, one showed how to set A powder off with one drop of water...

I do like flash bulbs and am very careful with those


Yea, I'm starting to get that impression...

Bob Salomon
16-Jun-2020, 15:23
I watched a bunch of YT and still not doing it, one showed how to set A powder off with one drop of water...

I do like flash bulbs and am very careful with those

Ever have a pocket full of them and have them go off there?

Drew Wiley
16-Jun-2020, 15:53
Anyone have an exposure estimate for a jar full of fireflies?

goamules
16-Jun-2020, 16:00
A lot of people that have never done wetplate instantly start asking how to do it, indoors. The answer is with a skylight. The root answer is: Use the sun, lots of light in the sun. Worry about the harder stuff later, like shooting in mines with strips of magnesium. Oops...

Think about all the movies you see with a flashgun (original term) being used with a wooden camera OUTDOORS! That tells you how "authentic" Hollywood, and our perceptions are.

Drew Wiley
16-Jun-2020, 16:06
I got over that phase when my brother and I stuffed a Halloween pumpkin with rifle powder and borrowed the well-diggers plunger and wires. About a week later we stumbled on a chunk of pumpkin nearly a mile away. Who would have ever known it was such an aerodynamic material?

Tin Can
16-Jun-2020, 17:19
Nope, I don't stuff my pockets, but I do know news guys did and heard some stories here

I have bought 100s of Sylvania M3 Blue Dot Camera Flashbulbs that were loose packed in bags and shipped USPS, none broke. Amazon is selling them. https://www.amazon.com/Sylvania-M3-Blue-Camera-Flashbulbs/dp/B00CJPUBIU


Ever have a pocket full of them and have them go off there?

Tin Can
16-Jun-2020, 17:22
I Built the Largest Natural Light Wet Plate Studio in the US in Over a Century (https://petapixel.com/2018/01/11/built-first-natural-light-wet-plate-studio-us-century/)


A lot of people that have never done wetplate instantly start asking how to do it, indoors. The answer is with a skylight. The root answer is: Use the sun, lots of light in the sun. Worry about the harder stuff later, like shooting in mines with strips of magnesium. Oops...

Think about all the movies you see with a flashgun (original term) being used with a wooden camera OUTDOORS! That tells you how "authentic" Hollywood, and our perceptions are.

Duolab123
16-Jun-2020, 19:32
I got rid of all my flashbulbs. When I lived in the country I had a couple plastic buckets full of them, I stored them in an old tool shed. 25B bulbs make beautiful light.

Tin Can
17-Jun-2020, 18:29
I have a 50 amp Saltzman head with 25 Edison sockets and enough Sylvania #2 to fill it several times. http://www.meggaflash.com/index.php/sylvania-flashbulbs/sylvania-2-replacement-flashbulb

But I can't come up with a good usage or place to use it.

It will be a big event


I got rid of all my flashbulbs. When I lived in the country I had a couple plastic buckets full of them, I stored them in an old tool shed. 25B bulbs make beautiful light.

Ethan
17-Jun-2020, 20:04
Anyone have an exposure estimate for a jar full of fireflies?

Well, how many are in the jar, and are they trained to flash synchronously? :)

John Layton
18-Jun-2020, 03:42
One warm summer night when I was 12 me and my best buddy wrapped a 10ft. length of magnesium ribbon around the big maple tree in the center of the local elementary school yard and lit one end...shined like the sun and boy did it ever attract attention!

Tin Can
18-Jun-2020, 04:06
Late sixties we were deep into VW Bugs which were very cheap used, we made mud buggies and ended up with many blown engines

Then we started racing them in the Midwest, formal mud events, camping at most

Inevitably some fool would light off a magnesium VW engine, which burned like the Sun and impossible to put out

Many fun events were ruined, poisonous fume, thick smoke, water or mud would not put it out, extinguishers were useless.

All went somewhere far away asap

I see on YT that some never learn

Magnesium fire vw block burning (https://youtu.be/65d_pNVdcrM)






One warm summer night when I was 12 me and my best buddy wrapped a 10ft. length of magnesium ribbon around the big maple tree in the center of the local elementary school yard and lit one end...shined like the sun and boy did it ever attract attention!

Jody_S
18-Jun-2020, 11:11
One warm summer night when I was 12 me and my best buddy wrapped a 10ft. length of magnesium ribbon around the big maple tree in the center of the local elementary school yard and lit one end...shined like the sun and boy did it ever attract attention!


I've heard this one told as wrapping the door knob to the science lab with magnesium ribbon and lighting it just as you spotted the teacher walking down the hall.

Neal Chaves
18-Jun-2020, 12:44
The 10" spot/flood 2k Fresnel lights can now be purchased for a fraction of new cost. (about $100 delivered) If you have 117v 25A service and can stand the heat, use a 2k bulb. You also need a substantial Junior receiver stand. At our Open Studios in Virginia Beach, we have used these converted to lower wattage Edison screw sockets and dual contact bayonet halogen bulbs up to 500W, in addition to both Dynalite and Norman electronic flash at up to 2400WS and 600W halogen modeling. The focused beam of the Fresnel lens does not fall off with the square of the distance as do other sources and can output high levels of quality, flattering illumination.
204886204884204885204883

Tin Can
18-Jun-2020, 13:17
I tried 2K Fresnel in my studio, wow they were so hot, I was worried about burning my paper backdrop at 10 ft, in winter with AC on.

Maybe outside on a cool day

I borrowed 3, and quickly returned them.

I read some are converting big Fresnel lamps to powerful LED

I will try that later, in my Theatrical Spots with Fresnel, I got 5 of those for $80 at a garage sale

Drew Bedo
20-Jun-2020, 16:58
There are six pages to this thread so far and I haven't read them all so this may not be news.

This came up here several years ago here and I looked up "Flash Powder" on Wikipedia.

There is a good article on the chemistry and proportions. There is a range of compositions that differ primarily only in the ratios of components. These changes in the ratios change the properties of the mixtures from traditional "Flash Powder" through what is in a SWAT "Flash-Bang" grenade and on out to shock sensitive explosives like "Tanerite" exploding targets.

I would strongly recommend against using anything like flash powder today.

Tin Can
20-Jun-2020, 17:15
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50027051533_f1704f02e4_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jdHHvg)Flash Powder Kit1 (https://flic.kr/p/2jdHHvg) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50027051573_e3d0dd2bc9_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jdHHvX)Flash Powder Kit2 (https://flic.kr/p/2jdHHvX) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

Drew Bedo
21-Jun-2020, 05:58
Just because a thing can be done does not mean that it is a good idea.

Tin Can
21-Jun-2020, 07:26
I bought the kit shown complete with all items on APUG. I wanted the VGC camera, plate holders and case. A tidy compact kit. Works great, but not LF

I never used nor will use the powder AND I didn't know the powder or caps were included as they weren't imaged

I was shocked to see the powder & caps in USPS parcel delivered to me, without ORM-D

Nonetheless NOW I will post my 2 pics on FB in a more friendly thread

Drew Bedo
22-Jun-2020, 07:39
Tin Can: My posts are intended to be friendly. Perhaps I expressed myself too emphatically.

Franlky, i think it is so cool that theseitems have been preservedwith the cameras together. They represent what 19th century photography was like. While I would be thinking about disposing of theflash materials, I would try to retain the flssh handle and packaging; the can and caps box, as historical artifacts tto remain with the amera kit.

I also participate in a message board much like LFP that is oriented towards firearms. I started a thread there asking for advice on disposing of flash powder with concerns about safety, ethics, legal issues etc.

The immediate consensus seems to be transferring the materials to a civil recycling center that handles fuels and flammables such as gasoline and paints.

Tin Can
22-Jun-2020, 08:27
Drew,

I understand. It was the repetition of safety concerns

I was on Hazmat, Fire Brigade and Medical response unit in factory for decades. I was trained on all 3 yearly. We had frequent very dangerous events with 2500 people inside 1 Million ft

Locally there is no process or facility for Hazmat where I now live

When I lived inside Chicago, I recycled everything and gave Hazmat to the correct site.

One time I had a Saltzman Mercury Lamp with at least one pound in glass tube. Gasoline, drain oil, oil paint, etc was all taken one day a week.

My father left me old paper shot shells, they went to Chicago Police station where I knew officers

I use Single Shot Powder Actuated Hammer Tools often and they are still sold...

I could just pour out the flash powder on my gravel driveway, the caps are far harder to dispose properly and I am staying well away form local PD

I am way more worried about the tons of fireworks arriving daily in my state, which bans them, but easy to buy in 3 states near me

Thanks for your concern

Drew Bedo
22-Jun-2020, 09:27
I apologize for any condescension on my part.

I once thought I would like to get involved with Daguerreotypes. In the 1990s, I worked in diagnostic imaging at a major VA hospital as they transitioned from a facility built during WW-II to a, then shiny and new modern facility of 1000 beds. Part of that transition involved all-new equipment of every sort in every department.. In the middle of all that I managed to salvage two Mercury Sphygmomanometers'; blood pressure equipment. My thought was to salvage the mercury for use in the traditional Dag process.

My professional experience has involved the use of ventilated glove boxes to work with radioactive materials and laminar flow hoods for working with blood products. I felt that I could safely work with boiling Mercury fumes. Never have done that and the blood pressure gear remains safely packed away. Some day I will either salvage the Mercury and sell it (any one here interested?) , or perhaps more responsibly, take it in to a Haz-Mat recycling site.

Re: Fireworks. I grew up in Michigan and most fireworks were banned. While in grade school, I had a friend who had relatives in Kansas where they could then buy about anything short of dynamite. He would come back from visiting them with copious q2uantities of dangerous stuff. It is a wonder any of us managed to make it to our 50th High School reunion last July! Your concerns in that regard are well founded.

Tin Can
22-Jun-2020, 09:54
My lb of mercury 10X10" rectangular glass tube survived bad packing and USPS shipping

and I was really worried about breaking it open in my almost sealed living space

Clean up would have been a nightmare and hazardous

as kid in the 50's everybody played with broken thermometer Mercury with some collecting all they could...like my brother...

At my material test lab inside the factory we had powerful exhaust hoods every 10 ft, and negative pressure rooms where the door was very hard to open

2 coworkers died of Trichloroethylene poisoning as they would not observe safety measures I constantly hounded them about

The factory sold spray cans of 'Clean Off'. A miracle later banned.

Rest in Peace