Antique Lens research

[Drew Bedo]

I am starting to get my feet a little wet dipinto the area of antique brass lenses. My intention is to do some photography with film and probably dry plates. I have a nice no-name user, a whole plate Rapid Rectilinear, that will soon go on an 8x10. A more recent acquisition in a little Darlot Hemispherique Rapid that looks like a jewel. Ill 'use it eventually, but it did get me interested in looking up the history of Darlot and other makers.

Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be much information out there. Someone here gave me a link to a French language book, which IS something, and maybe I'll get into that reference at some point, but . . .

What is a bit surprise sing is that in other fields of photographica, Leica, Hasselblad, etc, there are huge amounts of collected information, both in print and online. Folks have collected and collated serial numbers, variations in models and dates of production along with minute evaluations of manufacturer's markings . . .and lots of other stuff. The same is true for many areas of collecting vintage and antique cars and firearms.

I have not found that to be so for these 19th century lenses. Right now, I am interested in getting an overview of the early lenses, trhe makers, designers and the lenses themselves.

From what little I now know, it seems that about four years ago, I stumbled onto a Jamion-Darlot with hood and flange on e-Bay that was let go for parts or just over $50. I gleefully turned it over for at a swap-meet twice that much without really thinking about it. Now I realize that it might have sent one of the Grand-kids to college! Well maybe just bought his books.

Anyway, all of that is just an observation. I feel a little better now,

if there is another reference or online source IN ENGLISH, please let me know.

Cheers

[Dan Fromm]

Drew, have you looked in the list? If you don't know what the list is, please ask.

[jim_jm]

Drew, are you familiar with this site (http://www.antiquecameras.net/)?
The owner hasn't updated the blog in a few years, but there's lots of good information about antique lenses.
He also advertises a lens collector's Vade Mecum for download, which looks pretty extensive.

Cheers!

[goamules]

See the Vade Mecum on lenses too. (update, oops, didn't read the above). There is a page and a half of Jamin (sic) Darlot info. Nothing like serial number to date lists, those don't exist.

There is research out there. But there weren't lens collectors until pretty recently, the past 20 years or so. There have been automobile and firearms collectors as long as those items have been made, after perhaps a 20 year delay. But most large format people were users, and only needed or could afford a handful of lenses from the 1830s to the 1980s. The first people writing lens books are in our generation. It will take a while before the Internet starts revealing the content of those sparse books. But it eventually will, unfortunately for scholars that take the time to publish their work. The only make money during the first period of a book being released, then it's a free for all.

[Drew Bedo]

Thanks guys! Haven't looked yet (grand kids here for a few days), but these recommendations sound like what I am looking for.

[Mark Sawyer]

Kingslake's A History of the Photographic Lens is a great resource, as are the old lens catalogs at Camera Eccentric and for Wollensak exclusively:

https://alphaxbetax.com/wollensak-catalogs-etc/

And of course, D'Agostini's books on French and German lenses of the 1800s.

[pgk]

I've been researching into old lenses myself. The problem compared to say Leica, is often lack of factory records, the fact that many optical firms operated for a short time and few other easily accessible contemporary records. That said, I have found the Photographic Journal to be a great resource https://archive.rps.org as the RPS have a full digital archive which can be searched. The upside is that you can view contemporary information and get a real feel for what was going on right back to the 1850s. The downside is that the language used is a bit ponderous and often needs deciphering, and that few of the original adverts were included when the volumes were originally bound (a real pity, but one or two volumes do have some). Obviously this resource is UK-centric but does cover quite a lot and there are reports on all sorts of equipment from all over if you are prepared to wade through it all. As an example of what I have found out, is that the earliest mention of Wray lenses dates from 1886 when there is a note to say that Wray exhibited some photographic lenses in an exhibition - this is the first reference I can find to Wray (I have a 3 digit serial number Wray so it must date close to this) by about 1900 the original owner had died and lens serial numbers (from surviving models) was up in the region of 10,000 so at least a timeline and production figures can be estimated. Its a terribly time-consuming process though to find anything out because there is a lot to work through.

[pgk]

Kingslake's A History of the Photographic Lens is a great resource.....

It is, but be aware that Kingslake does not seem to have had access to things like all volumes of the Photographic Journal (see my post above) so his history is sometimes not as absolute as it might be - digital archives are wonderful and searchable - he would have had to have journeyed from New York to Bath in England to have viewed this resource and then waded through it manually which it does not seem that he did (hardly surprising). Oddly enough a lens designer friend attended his 90th!

[Dan Fromm]

pgk, look in the references in my Berthiot article. The list has a link to it. They'll take you to the French Photographic Society's bulletin, to Fabre's Aide Memoire de Photographie, to cnam.cnum.fr, to the French National Library, ... Good coverage of continental lenses.

[Drew Bedo]

Thanks everyone. Good stuff here.

Just dipping my toe into old brass lenses. I have a lens marked "Rapid Rectilinear" with no indication of the maker. It has a fully functioning multi leaved iris with f-stops marked. I intend to use it someday.

Recently got a little Darlot that takes drop-in warehouse stops, and I'd I'd like to know a bit more about it and other lenses of similar vintage.

To do some resource sharing myself; I recommend "Handbook of Photography" by Henney and Dudley, published in 1939. It has a great chapter on lens design. The design of photographic optics through the mid 1930s. Nothing really on lens makers or their marks . .what I am looking for just now, but really interesting anyway.

[Mark Sawyer]

It is, but be aware that Kingslake does not seem to have had access to things like all volumes of the Photographic Journal (see my post above) so his history is sometimes not as absolute as it might be - digital archives are wonderful and searchable - he would have had to have journeyed from New York to Bath in England to have viewed this resource and then waded through it manually which it does not seem that he did (hardly surprising). Oddly enough a lens designer friend attended his 90th!

Agreed. Every source will have its own focus, so to speak. Kingslake's history in an almost Darwinian take on how lenses evolved, along with biographical information on makers and companies.

He also didn't think much of soft-focus lenses, so be aware he gives little coverage of them.

[Philippe Grunchec]

Thanks everyone. Good stuff here.



Recently got a little Darlot that takes drop-in warehouse stops, and I'd I'd like to know a bit more about it and other lenses of similar vintage.



http://www.lereve-edition.fr/fr/dossiers-collectors-11-a-20/n-14-jamin-darlot

[Drew Bedo]

Thanks.

I looked aty that from another link sharing . I can't find it on Amazon or e-Bay.

And its in French.

It is a recource for me to consider in the future.

[Dan Fromm]

You have to buy the book direct from the publisher. Learning French will be good for you.

About France and photography. Photography was invented in France. 19th century French photographic journals are first rate and reported on new developments on the continent and in the UK. Thinking of development, they have many articles on developers.

If you want to learn about old crocks of lenses your best bet is to get as close to the sources as possible. Secondary sources like the VM and the Kingslake books mentioned above are less comprehensive.

[pgk]

19th century French photographic journals are first rate.....

British ones tend to reflect the fact that photography was undertaken by the wealthy and photographic societies were almost thought of as 'learned bodies'. That said there is some very interesting material but it does have to be seen in its social context. There was also a lot of bickering in the early days as people vied with one another and argued about things like lens design which was still often rather empirical. Sadly, because it was not considered to be the 'done thing' there is not as much really useful detail about lenses and their attributes in the earlier volumes (1850/60s) as might be hoped and it takes perseverance to extract really useful data - but much is still there if really looked for.

[Dan Fromm]

The French Photographic Society was indeed a learned society. Its members were mostly well-to-do, well educated and very serious. Its leading members were primarily scientists. The society had a testing lab, developed test procedures, and so on. That I was able to get useful information for my Berthiot anastigmats article from its Bulletin and from Fabre's work should tell you something.

Don't dismiss the references I used until you've looked at them. They're not guaranteed to have you what you want to find but you can't be sure of that until you've looked.

Fabre's book and supplements aren't that useful for lenses invented much before 1888 but are very good on anastigmats and wide angle non-anastigmats from then (1892-on for anastigmats) through around 1910.

Those educated gents wrote beautifully and lucid classical French that made my Berthiot research quite enjoyable.

[goamules]

Wasn't all photography a wealthy pursuit until amateur cameras of the 1890s? Or a commercial endeavor. Kind of like fox hunting, or a commercial space launch company, it was done by the upper levels of society. Cameras in the 19th century were not like cell phones today.

[Dan Fromm]

Wasn't all photography a wealthy pursuit until amateur cameras of the 1890s? Or a commercial endeavor. Kind of like fox hunting, or a commercial space launch company, it was done by the upper levels of society. Cameras in the 19th century were not like cell phones today.

Not only that, photography's tentacles reached into chemistry, physics, mathematics and engineering. Chemists studied emulsions and optics, physicists and mathematicians worked on the problems of designing lenses and engineers worked on evaluation. And they all published in the SFP's bulletin.

If you haven't read my Berthiot anastigmats article -- link to it in the list -- you should at least read the biographical notes at the end. There were giants in those days.

[goamules]

Will do Dan, always appreciate your expertise.

[Mark Sawyer]

Depends on if you consider Hippolyte Bayard and Frederick Scott Archer to be wealthy men, I suppose...

[Drew Bedo]

Maybe Google Translate will help with the French.

[Drew Bedo]

Found the Lens Collector's Vade Mecum on e-Bay. Looks good. I intend to get it.

My thanks to all.