What is this shutter on a Vesta Portrait lens? [Archive]

avid1

8-Jun-2020, 03:14

Could someone please help me identify the shutter on this 7" f/5 Vesta portrait lens? The shutter is incredibly simple. It only has T, B and I and no other speed. The letter I is for Instant, I suppose. The last time I used this lens was in 2005 and, alas, I can't remember how it works! I don't see anything that resembles a cocking lever and it is driving me nuts. The aperture selector and the aperture blades move smoothly. But I can't figure out the shutter! Not sure if the shutter is frozen from not getting any exercise for over a decade. But I can't even see how to cock it! There is a plunger type thing next to the cable release receptacle (I marked it as 'What's This?), I am not sure what it does. How does this thing work? Thanks for your help.
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Whir-Click

8-Jun-2020, 04:37

This is an interesting, nondescript cousin of Wollensak’s Auto/Regno/Victo/Ultro family of shutters, 1914-1919. I haven’t seen it in any catalogs, but maybe a brochure or “Lensology and Shutterisms” that mentions it will surface.

It is an automatic type that doesn’t cock, it fires simply with the cable release or by pressing the “Push Button” (the ‘What’s This’). If yours doesn’t fire with either method, then it may need a trip to Carol at Flutot’s.

Really neat shutter on a great lens.

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mdarnton

8-Jun-2020, 04:55

avid1

8-Jun-2020, 05:46

Thank you so much for the information, Whir-Click. From the descriptions in your attached image, it does look like this could be the Ultro, the simplest of the four with just B, T and I shutters. I can't remember what shutter speed the I stands for though! Could it be 1/30th? I tried firing with a cable release, but it is stuck from lack of use. It definitely needs to see Carol to get CLA'd. The lens renders images beautifully with dreamy soft falloff on the edges, much like its kin, the Verito.

Speaking of which, I have a 8.75" Wollensak Verito barrel lens that I would like to put into a shutter at some point. Would you know what shutters might be good for it? Would a #3 Compound shutter be the right choice? Or is there something smaller that might work? The Verito might need a trip to S. K. Grimes for a shutter. For now, I am thinking of sticking it in front of a Graflex Pacemaker with a focal plane shutter to see if it works at wide apertures.

avid1

8-Jun-2020, 05:51

That is a shutter release button and it looks like it is stuck down. It's supposed to pop back up after you fire.

I'd try VERY GENTLY to pull it back up (fingernail, not crowbar!), and if it doesn't immediately come up, and the shutter then work, it's due a trip to the shop.

It does come up with a gentle pull, but falls back down without any resistance. When it is pulled up, nothing happens to the shutter at all. It remains closed. The shutter definitely needs attention for it to be working again.

Whir-Click

8-Jun-2020, 18:19

avid1

8-Jun-2020, 23:55

Some 8.75” Verito lenses are a factory-direct fit into Betax #4 shutters, while others appear in Betax #5 or Studio shutters. If your Verito lens barrels are 2.42” female thread, then you can probably go right into a Betax (or Alphax with flash sync) #4 shutter.

I’m not sure what the “Instant” speed is on your TBI shutter, but 1/30th sounds quite reasonable.

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, the female part of the barrel is approximately 62.8 or pretty close to the 2.42" that you mentioned. I had read somewhere that the Betax is a match for it, can't recall the size. I could go without the flash sync. Here is a picture of the lens.

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Whir-Click

9-Jun-2020, 05:10

I apologize for mis-typing above: a 2.42” male thread will fit a Betax #4.

Your picture and measurements clear it up, though, your Verito is mounted in a Wollensak #5 lens barrel, in-between the #3 and #4 Betax shutter sizes, and will require special adaptations to fit in a shutter.

Whir-Click

23-Dec-2020, 12:29

I have been intrigued by the shutter in the post, not only because it doesn’t appear in any Wollensak catalogs, but also because the “I” in “TBI” does not appear original.

I had the good fortune to recently pick up a similar 7” Vesta in a nondescript Wollensak shutter. Here are some observations:
- The shutter is a simplified version of Wollensak’s Auto shutter. It’s self-cocking and has a maximum aperture of 1.375”, which rules out the similar-looking Regno, Vico, and Ultro shutters.
- This shutter’s mounting is dimensionally identical Wollensak’s Alphax and Betax #3 shutters, meaning the Vesta’s lens cells are a direct fit into a more modern, full-speed, and (for the Alphax) flash synch shutter. A very nice option. A #3 flange fits as well.
- If one removes the speed plate from this shutter, one sees that a small brass screw limits the travel of the speed selector lever to “T” and “B.” (See photo). However, if one simply removes that screw, the speed selector lever can move clockwise a little more (see reassembled photo) and the shutter fires at an instant speed! Hence the “I” added the OP’s shutter.
- I measure the instant speed of the mystery shutter at about 1/30.

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avid1

24-Dec-2020, 00:53

Whir-Click, first off, congrats on acquiring a 7" Vesta which I am sure you're enjoying a lot. I loved using mine when it was actually working. It is interesting to see that you don't have the 'I' marking but it can still shoot at that speed by removing the speed limiter screw. I don't understand why they would do that in the first place. But at least now you have 1/30th. So, should I look into putting this on a Alphax #3 shutter to have a few more shutter speeds than just the 'I'? What would that entail? Something I can do myself easily or it needs special modification for a perfect fit? I would love to have up to 1/400 shutter speed, like other Ektars.
Here is a photo I shot with this Vesta and why I like it so much. Shot this with an Ebony 45su, most likely stopped down a stop or two from wide open. Can't remember! It was shot on Polaroid Type55 P/N film.

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Whir-Click

24-Dec-2020, 08:04

avid1, beautiful picture! You’re really showing the Vesta’s characteristics to great advantage.

It couldn’t be simpler to put the 7” Vesta in an Alphax or Betax #3, just unscrew the cells from the old shutter and screw them into the new shutter. No machining, adapting or anything else required. Here’s the before and after about 30 seconds apart.

You have a few options in this family of shutters (pictured), but none faster than 1/100. You may need to resort to ND filters to shoot wide open. The regular and heavy duty Alphax #3 go up to 1/100 with synchronization optional. The older Betax and newer Pi Alphax have top speeds of 1/50. All will accept your Vesta cells while maintaining correct spacing (plus or minus a fraction of a millimeter).

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avid1

25-Dec-2020, 01:11

Thank you so much for comprehensive post about the various shutters for the Vesta, along with pics. This information was immensely helpful. I will be off to find an appropriate shutter for the lens, most likely a Synchro Alphax #3. Is it a general rule of thumb that 1/100th are all #3 shutters, and 1/200ths are #2 shutters? They don't indicate the shutter number on the shutters on any of them. Most sellers don't mention the number either, perhaps they don't know.

The max speed of 1/100th is not a concern, ND filters and 100 iso films should take care of it, as you suggested. Not to mention, the Speed Graphic has the focal plane shutter to shoot at high speeds of up to 1/1000th. At 1/250th and above, the shake from the curtain should be well mitigated.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you!

avid1

25-Dec-2020, 02:17

Hi Whir-Click, here is what I bought on eBay and I think it is the right shutter. Says #3 on the original box from Ilex and Alphax on the shutter fascia. Looks to be a synchro variant. However, the widest aperture on this is f4.5 while the one you posted above is f3.5. It also comes with some lenses but no barrel, and I am not sure what that's about. Either way, all I need is the shutter. I just hope the shutter fires at proper speeds without the need for a CLA. Anyway, here are the images of the shutter I just bought:

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Whir-Click

25-Dec-2020, 09:19

Hi avid1, that Alphax shutter will work with your Vesta lens cells. It appears to have a lever to be fired by an external solenoid rather than internal flash synch. My guess is that the Ilex box and miscellaneous bits in the sale are unrelated to the Alphax shutter.

For the aperture, you could transpose the scale from your original TIB shutter onto the new Alphax, either by measuring the size of the opening at each setting, or by simply making a photocopy of the scale and taping it onto the face of your new shutter.

avid1

25-Dec-2020, 17:32

The difference in aperture scale compared to yours had cast a doubt in my mind. The seller couldn't shed a light on it. Good to know this particular shutter will work. I don't intend to use a flash with it, so the synch won't be that important for now, but I am hoping that the shutter speeds are going to be fairly accurate when it arrives. The biggest deal for me would be to transpose the aperture scale and be accurate with it. I hope it doesn't become an issue, although pasting a photocopy version would be a brilliant way to simplify the problem.
Thanks again.

Mark Sawyer

25-Dec-2020, 17:42

Best to assemble the lens in its new shutter and determine the f/stops by measuring. The new Alphax may not close down at the same linear rate as the old shutter.

Whir-Click

25-Dec-2020, 19:01

As usual, Mark is right! I measured, and although the “TB” shutter and the Alphax have identical minimum and maximum aperture dimensions, the Alphax shutter’s diaphragm indicator lever travels noticeably farther. You’ll have to measure the opening values and mark.

Mark Sawyer

25-Dec-2020, 19:33

I'm always right, and I never lie! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

avid1

3-Jan-2021, 21:48

So, I received the Alphax shutter yesterday and transferred the lens cells on to it. It fit right in as expected. However, I noticed one of the leaves of the shutter was not in line with the rest of them. I attached a picture of it. Also, the shutter doesn't stay open at T or B and it only works at 100, 50 and 25. When I fired the shutter without the lens cells at first, it did work at all shutter settings. It even fired at 1 second at what seemed to be like a second. Something happened after I screwed the cells in. Not being too experienced at fixing shutters I think it would be safe to send it for a CLA now, and a proper assembly. The aperture ring on the shutter is pretty smooth, as is the shutter itself. So I can't blame the shutter. Looks like I screwed up something inadvertently.
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Whir-Click

3-Jan-2021, 21:59

avid1, what a drag! Is there a screw missing in the circled area? With the shadow I couldn’t be sure, but a missing blade screw is the only thing I can think of that could cause the blade to slip out of position.
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avid1

3-Jan-2021, 22:59

Nope, all 5 screws are in place. I don't think that leaf was out of place when I got it and initially inspected it. But I have no idea how it went maverick! All I did was fire it at various speeds to check for timing and exercise them. I only noticed things were off after screwing in the cells. It didn't drop from my hands either. Yeah, it is a bummer!!!

avid1

3-Jan-2021, 23:20

Ok, the behavior is thus: I slid the switch from F to A (automatic, is it?) and the shutter fires with just the cocking lever at 1/100, 1/50, 1/25 and 1/10th. At 1/5 and slower it remains open and stuck till I rotate it back to 1/10th. It fires with a cable release at F (for FLASH, I suppose) in the same manner, all the way to 1/10th. The other weird bit is, at T and B, it fires with the same gusto as in 1/100th, instead of behaving as Time and Bulb. And that's both at F or A setting. The other observation is, the errant shutter leaf seems to get out of the way when I fire at 1/100th thru 1/10th, and is out of the way when the shutter is stuck at 1/5h and below.

I just saw the image from the original listing and the leaf was already out of place. I may have ignored it thinking it was a photographic anomaly. My bad!

avid1

4-Jan-2021, 20:37

Whir-Click, Do you think it is repairable? I can send it in for a CLA along with the lens cells to get them properly situated in that shutter. At $35, it's not a big loss if it can't be salvaged. I just have to find another shutter to fit it into. But it would be good to know if this can be fixed or not first.