Collodion and Chemical Suppliers

[Ari]

I ordered the B&S kit, but once I'm done with the chemicals in that kit, I'd like to get my chems in bulk, or at least larger quantities.

I know of Artcraft Chemicals (owned by Q. Jacobson's brother) and have bought silver nitrate from them before. eBay might be a source for some items, too.
Getting collodion and ethyl ether is trickier - at least right now.

I wanted to know where you more experienced guys get your collodion and chemicals?
I'd love to compile a good list of suppliers.

[Two23]

The ones I've dealt with are: Bostick & Sullivan, UV Photographics, Lund, Art Craft. I would think there would be raw chemicals available in Canada somewhere too.


Kent in SD

[Ari]

Of course there are chemical suppliers here, too. They're much more expensive and harder to find.
Most times, it's much less expensive to have something shipped to a US border town, drive down, pick it up and pay the taxes coming back in to Canada.

I've used all the suppliers on your list except UV photographic, they don't ship outside of the US.

[paulbarden]

I’ve bought chemistry from B&S, Artcraft and UV Photographics.
I prefer UV Photographics because prices are better than B&S, and Brian offers a wider variety of pre-mixed chemistry, and most of the raw chemicals you’ll need for wet plate work.
I’ve bought hardware from Lund, but not chemistry.

These are the four suppliers I’m aware of. I’d recommend UV Photographics of the four, but if they don’t ship to Canada....

FWIW, I have bought half pound containers of AgNO3 from Artcraft’s fleabay presence (Artcraftinny) for the lowest price I’ve ever paid, since you can “make an offer”, hint, hint.

[Ari]

UV has a good selection and better variety of sizes.
A quick look online shows their prices are almost the same as Lund's (for the same sizes), but again, UV is US-only.
Too bad, but I understand. Some of these items are hazardous, and ground shipping across the border can be expensive and complicated.

Thanks for the eBay information, Paul. Practical question:
Do you buy all your chemicals at once and have a good amount in stock for 2-4 months, or do you buy smaller quantities as needed?
I guess I'm wondering if it's feasible buying larger quantities of collodion and other solutions, and how long they'll keep.

[Ari]

Found the answer in Quinn's book.
You can mix the salts and solvents and keep them in storage. Mixing the ether with alcohol also stabilizes it.
This mixture can be added, as needed, to collodion when you need to mix a fresh batch.

Ken here also keeps his chemistry in a fridge, so I guess that's a long-term storage solution, too.

[Tin Can]

After Kent's post, I put mine in fridge too

[paulbarden]

Please, do not put your collodion in the same fridge as you keep food! This is a bad idea. I'm hoping none of you is doing that?

[paulbarden]

Found the answer in Quinn's book.
You can mix the salts and solvents and keep them in storage. Mixing the ether with alcohol also stabilizes it.
This mixture can be added, as needed, to collodion when you need to mix a fresh batch.

Yup. You can assemble all of the components of a recipe except the collodion itself, which is added only when you need a working batch of salted collodion. This way, your salts/solvents are stable for years. Collodion begins to age and decompose only when all of the components are mixed together.

[Tin Can]

I have 3 fridges, one is film and Collodion, I don't freeze film.

The camper ENGEL (https://engelcoolers.com/collections/powered-fridge-freezers/products/sr70-rv-camping-fridge) has Guinness Extra Stout, drinking one a day at noon for health.


Please, do not put your collodion in the same fridge as you keep food! This is a bad idea. I'm hoping none of you is doing that?

[Tin Can]

Bad data removed

[Ari]

A question for the collodioni:

I came across this article by Alex Timmermans, comparing three different fixers: http://collodion-art.blogspot.com/2011/09/three-fixer-test.html
He seems to like Amaloco X89 Extra Fix because it's got a higher concentration of Ammonium Thiosulfate ((NH4)2S203). It thus fixes faster and offers comparable results in tone and richness to KCN fixer.
Amaloco must only be available overseas, I've never heard of it.

I found Photographer's Formulary Ammonium Thiosulfate, 1 gallon for $22.00 at B&H.
I am never bringing cyanide anything into my home, so I thought it might be interesting to make my own fixer using higher concentrations of (NH4)2S203.

Do any of you do something similar? Is this worth looking into at some point (not right away)?
Eventually, I'd like to mix my own chemicals as much as possible, both to learn about the process more accurately and for the savings in bulk chemicals.

[drewf64]

A question for the collodioni:

I came across this article by Alex Timmermans, comparing three different fixers: http://collodion-art.blogspot.com/2011/09/three-fixer-test.html
He seems to like Amaloco X89 Extra Fix because it's got a higher concentration of Ammonium Thiosulfate ((NH4)2S203). It thus fixes faster and offers comparable results in tone and richness to KCN fixer.
Amaloco must only be available overseas, I've never heard of it.

I found Photographer's Formulary Ammonium Thiosulfate, 1 gallon for $22.00 at B&H.
I am never bringing cyanide anything into my home, so I thought it might be interesting to make my own fixer using higher concentrations of (NH4)2S203.

Do any of you do something similar? Is this worth looking into at some point (not right away)?
Eventually, I'd like to mix my own chemicals as much as possible, both to learn about the process more accurately and for the savings in bulk chemicals.

I mix my own SODIUM THIOSULFATE fixer for film and collodion glass plate negatives.
Good alternative to using cyanide.

I use John Coffer's recipe = 200g Sodium Thiosulfate + 1000ml Distilled Water
Easy to mix. Saves money.

Lots of options out there .......

[Tin Can]

Another test

http://uvphotographics.com/blog/wet-plate-collodion-fixer-comparison/

I will use Rapid Fix as I have plenty and water is everywhere here

[paulbarden]

A question for the collodioni:

I came across this article by Alex Timmermans, comparing three different fixers: http://collodion-art.blogspot.com/2011/09/three-fixer-test.html
He seems to like Amaloco X89 Extra Fix because it's got a higher concentration of Ammonium Thiosulfate ((NH4)2S203). It thus fixes faster and offers comparable results in tone and richness to KCN fixer.
Amaloco must only be available overseas, I've never heard of it.

I found Photographer's Formulary Ammonium Thiosulfate, 1 gallon for $22.00 at B&H.
I am never bringing cyanide anything into my home, so I thought it might be interesting to make my own fixer using higher concentrations of (NH4)2S203.

Do any of you do something similar? Is this worth looking into at some point (not right away)?
Eventually, I'd like to mix my own chemicals as much as possible, both to learn about the process more accurately and for the savings in bulk chemicals.

Ari, I think the emphasis placed on the effect of KCn as a fixer is exaggerated by some: the difference is subtle. I've found statements on the web that suggest Ammonium thiosulfate gives warmer values than Sodium thiosulfate, and I've also read the opposite. If you search long enough, you will find information on the web that supports any number of possible conclusions regarding the KCn VS thiosulfate fixer issue. Even Alex Timmerman states at the bottom of his article that the differences between the three fixers is barely visible once the plates are dry.

Personally, I have never tried KCn as a fixer, so I cannot tell you what differences there may be. I've avoided KCn not so much because its potentially very dangerous to handle, but because it is rapidly becoming a much more restricted chemical to acquire. Quinn has speculated that it won't be long before its simply not available to photographers. So I haven't used it, because I'd hate to develop a preference for it, only to find I cannot buy it anymore.

I suggest you take a look at these two articles - both having opposing opinions on the matter:

http://www.alternativephotography.com/say-goodbye-to-cyanide-a-less-toxic-approach-to-fixing-wet-collodion-plates/

http://collodionbastards.org/files/coffermythbusters.pdf

Personally, I have found there are MANY variables that affect the color and tonal range of a wet plate positive, including the choice of developer, how long the developing time, the age and condition of the collodion, which salts are in it, and the strength of the fixer, whether it be Ammonium or Sodium based. I've had some tintypes come out very bright, with detailed highlights, but quite cool in color. I've also had tintypes with relatively subdued highlights and very warm coloring. To some degree, I sense it is unpredictable and with all the factors combined, it may not be entirely in the photographers control.

Perhaps today - if light conditions settle into a stable pattern - I might do two identical plates and fix in each of the two fixers I use, and see what happens. I also have some Photographers Formulary alkaline fix (TF3, perhaps?) and see if that has an effect.

Currently, my fixer of choice is Sodium thiosulfate, in part because it is very cheap if you buy it in 5 or 10 pound lots. I get it off Amazon, sold as Cesco brand "pool and pond dechlorinator" and ten pounds costs $25 including delivery. Ten pounds goes a long way.

[goamules]

You can make the fixer as strong as you want (until saturation) with the sodium Thiosulfate. Some people use other fixers, but that's all I've ever used other than when working with someone else. Hypo works great. I tried the Ammonium type once. Hated the weird reddish tones. Pitched it.

I have a chemical supply house in Tucson that I get much of my chemistry from. They don't carry ether or collodion though.

[Ari]

Thanks all.

Paul, if you manage a test soon, I'd be very interested in the results.

Garrett, I've also read that silvery tones result from a more dilute solution of Ammonium fixer.

The red comes from strong dilutions, is that true?

[paulbarden]

Thanks all.

Paul, if you manage a test soon, I'd be very interested in the results.

Garrett, I've also read that silvery tones result from a more dilute solution of Ammonium fixer.

The red comes from strong dilutions, is that true?

Ari, I've done a set of three 4x5 test plates, each exposed and developed identically, but each is fixed in a different fixer. I used: Photographers Formulary TF4, Ilford Rapid Fix (Ammonium thiosulfate) and plain Sodium thiosulfate. Development was in a standard Iron sulfate developer (John Coffer recipe) for 15 seconds exactly, for each plate. The Collodion used was Quinn's Ammonium based collodion for positives.

Here's the Formulary TF4 plate:
204515

And the Ilford Rapid Fix plate:
204516

And finally the Sodium Thiosulfate fixed plate:
204517

All three of these scans were treated identically to come as close as possible to representing the actual color of the plates (they were scanned in 24 bit color, minor tweaks were: 25 points magenta, and whites were increased by 30 points - just enough to craft a truer representation of how the plates look) Please excuse the bit oif lens flare evident in the Ilford plate: lighting changed a bit during that exposure, creating a bright spot outside the window.
Looking at the three side-by-side, I can barely tell the difference in their colors, but the Sodium thiosulfate-fixed plate has brighter highlights than the other two. (but its a tiny difference) The TF4 plate appears to be a bit warmer, but in reality, that difference is very difficult to see in daylight. If anything, the sodium thiosulfate plate appears a wee bit warmer (and yellower) in daylight. If I had KCn to use as a fix to compare, maybe I'd see more significant differences relative to the other fixers, but I suspect the differences would still be minimal.
Your choice of developer and collodion is likely to have even more impact on plate color and highlight values, so you may want to perform this test yourself. Personally, I see no reason to choose one fixer over another. I suggest: use what's available and economical.

[Willie]

"I know of Artcraft Chemicals (owned by Q. Jacobson's brother) "

My Uncle talked to Quinn and nope, not his brother. Quinn does buy some of his chemistry from him.

[Ari]

Thanks, Paul, appreciate this very much.
From my screen, it looks like the TF-4 kept the highlights better than the other two, but perhaps there are other factors causing that difference.
I have an unopened bottle of TF-5 which I was also going to try eventually, once I used up my Ilford Rapid. Good to know it's also a viable option.
I'm going to be using B&S pre-mixed chemicals until I can sort out bulk purchases.

Willie, I had always thought they were brothers. Don't know where I got it from, maybe another forum a few years back.

[paulbarden]

Thanks, Paul, appreciate this very much.
From my screen, it looks like the TF-4 kept the highlights better than the other two, but perhaps there are other factors causing that difference.

My experiment wasn't ideal: as much as it looked like it was going to stay semi-overcast for the hour I was working on this, the light changed after the first plate as the clouds thinned. I think the differences in the highlights are all about changes in the light quality outside the window. I should have done this test under artificial light, really, but I dislike using my compact fluorescent softbox - so slow.

[Ari]

My experiment wasn't ideal: as much as it looked like it was going to stay semi-overcast for the hour I was working on this, the light changed after the first plate as the clouds thinned. I think the differences in the highlights are all about changes in the light quality outside the window. I should have done this test under artificial light, really, but I dislike using my compact fluorescent softbox - so slow.

It's good to know that even under different conditions various fixers gives all three images a very similar look.

[Two23]

I've been using PF-4 as fixer for b&w film and the B&S for wet plate. Good to know I can use PF-4 for both. Same concentration?


Kent in SD

[paulbarden]

I've been using PF-4 as fixer for b&w film and the B&S for wet plate. Good to know I can use PF-4 for both. Same concentration?


Kent in SD

Kent,
I mixed the TF4 as directed on the bottle: one to three. I have no idea if this is ideal or not, I just used the dilution suggested.

[goamules]

What I have found is your plate tones as well as the quality of exposure are contingent on exactly how long you expose and develop. If you develop a little longer than the previous plate (like 1 more second), it may change the tones. But to me the Ammonium Thio looked very redish when I tried it. It also depends on your developer strength. And again, exposure. One guy might go a little short on the exposure, and develop long. The other, vice versa. The tones will be different.

BTW: I use a pretty strong concentration of Hypo, almost to saturation, in tap water. I don't use distilled. That also may make a difference.

[paulbarden]

What I have found is your plate tones as well as the quality of exposure are contingent on exactly how long you expose and develop. If you develop a little longer than the previous plate (like 1 more second), it may change the tones.

This is my experience as well. So many variables play a role in the look of the final plate, enough so that its inaccurate to say that the choice of fixer alone determines the color of the plate.

[Ari]

Quick question, you can shoot me down just as quickly. This would be for making collodion and developer solutions.

Can 99% isopropyl alcohol be used in place of 90 proof grain alcohol?
The former is much easier for me to get, a 5-minute walk. The latter requires a 1 hr car trip and uncertain availability.

[paulbarden]

Quick question, you can shoot me down just as quickly. This would be for making collodion and developer solutions.

Can 99% isopropyl alcohol be used in place of 90 proof grain alcohol?
The former is much easier for me to get, a 5-minute walk. The latter requires a 1 hr car trip and uncertain availability.

Ari.
I can't find references to using Isopropyl alcohol as a substitute for Ethanol (grain alcohol) but I see mention of using denatured alcohol as a reasonable substitute. I've searched Quinn Jacobson's materials, Mark Osterman's, and John Coffer's. They all say substitute denatured alcohol of grain alcohol isn't available.

No mail order options??

[Ari]

Thanks, Paul.
I only have Quinn's book (2014) and found nothing in there except the grain alcohol/denatured alcohol recipes.
It must obviously be an important distinction, even if they're brothers from a different mother.

[Two23]

Thanks, Paul.
I only have Quinn's book (2014) and found nothing in there except the grain alcohol/denatured alcohol recipes.
It must obviously be an important distinction, even if they're brothers from a different mother.


Isopropyl is a different molecule from the two-carbon ethanol. Apparently that makes a difference.


Kent in SD

[ghostcount]

Others have tried 190% ethanol successfully, I've not.

https://www.amazon.com/Ignis-Bio-Ethanol-Fireplace-Fuel/dp/B00KZ0IL4M/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=bio+ethanol&qid=1592111015&sr=8-1

Use at your own discretion... ;)

[Ari]

That's interesting. What are some commercial names for denatured alcohol?
I looked at every hardware store online under "denatured alcohol" and found nothing.
But if it's under a name like fireplace fuel, that would make it much easier to find.

[ghostcount]

I’ll let Mr. Coffer explain...:cool:

https://www.johncoffer.com/Myth_Busters_files/MythBusters05-20100121.pdf

https://www.johncoffer.com/Myth_Busters.htm

[Ari]

Oh, I realize that grain alcohol isn't necessary since Quinn mentions denatured alcohol frequently.
My own problem is finding cheap denatured alcohol. It doesn't seem to be commonly available at Home Depot, Lowe's, etc
So maybe it's listed under a different name such as "fireplace fuel" but so far, no luck in Canada.

[paulbarden]

Oh, I realize that grain alcohol isn't necessary since Quinn mentions denatured alcohol frequently.
My own problem is finding cheap denatured alcohol. It doesn't seem to be commonly available at Home Depot, Lowe's, etc
So maybe it's listed under a different name such as "fireplace fuel" but so far, no luck in Canada.

You've checked your local hardware store(s), Ari? Once upon a time it used to be standard inventory at a hardware store.
I know a guy in Toronto that does wet plate work - I'm going to ask him how and where he sources his supplies. Maybe he will have some suggestions.

As for that Ignis Fireplace Fuel: I'd be careful testing that. Think about it: its supposedly 190 proof Ethanol from various sources (grains, potatoes, etc), which it likely is. However, I'm absolutely certain they cannot sell 190 proof ethanol unless it has a denaturant added to make it undrinkable. So the issue is, what is the denaturant? Quinn has talked about this a few times, stating that some denaturants added to these alcohols can make it completely unsuitable for wet plate recipes. If I were you, I'd ask the manufacturer directly and find out what else is in that fuel.

[Ari]

Hey Paul,
Yes, I've checked at the hardware stores, but maybe I'm looking under the wrong section. Clearly, no one here is seeking it as "denatured alcohol", it's being sold under other names and for various purposes.
And yes, denaturants are tricky when it comes to non-intended purposes. They can either be inert or ruin everything.
Please let me know if your Toronto buddy has a suggestion. Thank you for asking.

[paulbarden]

I just found this statement about the manufacture of Ethanol fireplace fuels, on "Regal Flame"s web site:

"Bio ethanol is an absolute alcohol substance. The ethanol fuel is a renewable energy source primarily produced from domestic agricultural forestry of corn, potatoes, beetroots and wheat, just to name a few ingredients. Due to the nature of bio ethanol being 100% alcohol, it cannot be sold untainted to prevent human consumption. Consequently, ethanol manufacturers de-nature ethanol with a variation of odorless unpleasantly tasting flavors to create a pure alcohol substance into bio ethanol fireplace fuel. The bio ethanol fireplace fuel is also known as denatured ethanol."

So the question remains: does the denaturant they add make it unsuitable for mixing into a collodion recipe? I don't know. I'll ask Quinn if he knows more.

[paulbarden]

Hey Paul,
Yes, I've checked at the hardware stores, but maybe I'm looking under the wrong section. Clearly, no one here is seeking it as "denatured alcohol", it's being sold under other names and for various purposes.
And yes, denaturants are tricky when it comes to non-intended purposes. They can either be inert or ruin everything.
Please let me know if your Toronto buddy has a suggestion. Thank you for asking.

Ari, here is what Stephen Brule told me about his suppliers:

There's a guy named Dale Wilson in Nova Scotia who sells wet plate supplies, and his company s called Antique Pictureology: https://www.antiquepictureology.com/, and specifically: https://www.antiquepictureology.com/products/denatured-alcohol

Stephen says he buys an appropriate-for-collodion denatured alcohol from a company in Mississauga called Siva Chemicals. They don't have a web site, but you can contact them through sales@sivachem.com or phone: 416-666-9141

Also, Stephen (Brule) is planning to teach a Wet Plate Workshop in August (Covid permitting) at the School of Photographic Arts in Ottawa, so you may want to get more info about that! Stephen is on Instagram, so you might want to connect with him.

[Ari]

Hi Paul,
Thank you very, very much! Nice pipeline you got there.
As it turns out, I sold Dale Wilson a barrel lens a few years ago (it was too soft for my taste), I may still have his email somewhere.
And I know about Stephen Brulé's class; my friend Christine told me about it. I may sign up, we'll see where I'm at by August.
I'll contact both of those sources tomorrow. If Canada were half its size, we'd have a good supply chain!
Thanks again, Paul.

[LabRat]

190 proof grain alcohol is availible in some states sold as "Everclear" in liquor stores... It is sold in other states marked as "culinary additive" for cooking purposes...

Some states will only allow 170 proof liquor to be sold, so check...

We use it at work for a less harmful electrical contact cleaning solvent that leaves no residue...

Steve K

[Ari]

I can get Everclear across the provincial border in Quebec, but it's expensive compared to denatured alcohol.
Ontario, much like several US states, doesn't allow the sale of Everclear.

[Tin Can]

Everclear 190 is $21.47 plus tax 750ml 5 miles away

Only 5 left at Walmart

I better hurry

[paulbarden]

I can get Everclear across the provincial border in Quebec, but it's expensive compared to denatured alcohol.
Ontario, much like several US states, doesn't allow the sale of Everclear.

I don’t think it was always that way. I seem to remember buying everclear when I was in my twenties, living in Ontario. What changed, I wonder?

I’m glad I was able to connect you (potentially) with a supplier, Ari!

[Ari]

Thanks again, Paul. It's a relief not to have to pay extra to ship some of this stuff across the border.
Hopefully Siva Chemicals also has some Ethyl Ether. Then I'd be set.
And I stand corrected, there is an independent supplier of Everclear in Ontario, Craft Cellars. They also sell Cruxx, a different brand, same thing.
I'd been looking on the Ontario liquor control board website (LCBO). The Quebec LCB sells Everclear in-store.
Prices are about 2x more than what Randy would pay.

[Tin Can]

Make sure they sell 190 as Everclear is sold in lesser versions too.

Below from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everclear_(alcohol)

"Everclear is a brand name of rectified spirit (also known as grain alcohol and neutral spirit) produced by the American company Luxco (formerly known as the David Sherman Corporation). It is made from grain[1] and is bottled at 120, 151, 189, and 190 U.S. proof (60%, 75.5%, 94.5% and 95% alcohol by volume, respectively).[2] Due to its market prevalence and high alcohol content, the product has become iconic, with a "notorious reputation" in popular culture.[3][4] Sale of the 190-proof variation is prohibited in some states, which led Luxco to start selling the 189-proof version.[5][6]"

and keep it from children, it is a well known booze to some fools, like me

age 17 I took a swig off a bottle of 190, it burned, I spit it right out

but my 15 year old brother grabbed it, swilled a big snort, the athlete was far bigger and stronger than I

age 25 160 rum (https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2014/07/ten-of-the-worlds-strongest-spirits/6/) was smooth