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View Full Version : Equipment needs, cameras and lenses. Making, buying, adapting



goamules
30-May-2020, 08:38
What type of camera and lens do I need for wetplate? That used to be the first question a newcomer asked. And interestingly, the answers have changed somewhat since 2006 when I started.

Back then, there was a strong "history" contingent, and re-enactors at battlefields. So having an authentic camera was important. What people learned on then were:
Medium sized tailboard cameras, by Anthony, Scovill, Blair, and sometimes Rochester. Usually about 5x8 sized plates, many were originally dryplate cameras. Work well adapted with a holder. Their lenses are often slow, landscape types like Waterbury or Morrisons. Work well for landscapes, you need a faster lens for portraits. There were thousands of these made in the 1870s-1890s, and they're cheap.

Then there was a "esoteric art" group:
They wanted beautiful, custom made cameras and dark boxes made of expensive hardwoods. Star Camera and Black Arts made nice replicas of the above, and you could sometimes get special woods. Very expensive though, compared to using an original antique.

And then there were the "Huge plate, fast lens" group:
These people wanted to amaze the beholder with a large plate, 8x10 or larger, usually of just a head shot. Often a beautiful girl, sometimes wearing a gas mask. Cameras here become somewhat less portable. You can't get a small field camera with a large enough lens board to hold a fast petzval that will cover. So swirl became part of the picture. Literally. Anthony and Scovill studio cameras from the 1800s, then Century and Eastman studios from the early 1900s-1940s work great. They have a 9" lensboard usually, and you can fit your F3.1 16" Voigtlander petzval on it. Studio cameras were also common, and should be fairly cheap, a few hundred dollars.

Middle ground group:
These wanted medium sized cameras with some movements and moderate sized lenses. The Kodak 2D or 2 work nicely, in 8x10 or 5x7. Also Burke and James. Usually pretty cheap. Rochester made some nice cameras, but again, their lensboards are small, usally 4.5" or so.

In the past 5 years, it's changed. Many young photographers and do it your self people want to shoot wetplate, cheap. They don't want mahogany and brass. They want to shoot plates.

Small and cheap group: Speed graphics work well for wetplate, but the same difficulty exists of getting a petzval that will cover 4x5 onto a 4" board. It can be done, but you'll need a slower petzval. F5 would be great....like a Dallmeyer 2D or 3D.

Huge and modern group: These people want to shoot mammoth plates. They don't care what the lens or camera is. A box, a packing crate, a U-haul trailer all can be used. You can make a wetplate camera out of a pumpkin. Be creative and try just about anything.

That's all for now. Lenses next.

goamules
30-May-2020, 08:41
Lenses are my specialty and love. Coming soon.

Ari
31-May-2020, 07:54
I have a few lenses that I plan on using for WP. I like how they look on film and I hope they'll work well for tintypes.
10" Schneider Xenar
B&L Tessar 1c
12" Anastigmat (3 of them)
Wollensak Vesta 14"
CZ Tessar 12"

All the lenses are f/4.5 except the Vesta, which is f/5. They're mostly 8x10 lenses, which is my ultimate goal in tintype size.

Of course, as Garrett says, any lens can be used, but right now these are what I have (or will have soon) so I'm going to work with them for a while.
I'll start off with 4x5 and hopefully things will go well enough to justify shooting 8x10 tintypes.

goamules
31-May-2020, 08:12
I have used a B&L Ic and IIb before, they work great. Actually, Tessars at F4.5 are really about as fast as a lot of Petzvals. So that is one lens I recommend. The Vesta is of course a fantastic lens on wetplate.

Ari
31-May-2020, 08:47
Thanks for confirming, Garrett.
Most of these lenses are quite common and in barrel. It goes to prove what you said in an earlier thread that WP doesn't have to be an expensive endeavor.

paulbarden
31-May-2020, 10:35
I have used a B&L Ic and IIb before, they work great. Actually, Tessars at F4.5 are really about as fast as a lot of Petzvals. So that is one lens I recommend. The Vesta is of course a fantastic lens on wetplate.

I was recently given an Industar-37, f4.5 lens, which is basically a 300mm Tessar. Apparently these can be had for under $100. and they are every bit as good as most any other Tessar, but far less $$$. Its a barrel lens, so its well-suited to wet plate work. I've used it a few times and find it to be an excellent lens.

goamules
31-May-2020, 15:03
Another tip: beginners will usually overexpose. Especially if using a fast lens outdoors in sun, like a F3.8 Petzval, they cannot believe they will need to be at about 1-4 seconds. So their first day is usually with fogged plates that barely show anything. So, start with a medium speed lens, around F4.5 to F6.8. If all you have is that super fast petzval, put a stop in it the first few shots and see if you can get a decent exposure, before going "full speed."

Two23
31-May-2020, 15:33
Another tip: beginners will usually overexpose. Especially if using a fast lens outdoors in sun, like a F3.8 Petzval, they cannot believe they will need to be at about 1-4 seconds.


Wide open I've been getting 1/2 sec. exposures with a wide open Petzval. With f16 on my lenses I was shooting 2s in bright sun yesterday. Since you really can't meter and have to develop by inspection, my suggestion is to keep trying exposures until during development the shadow detail has just started to appear--then you dunk it in the stop bath. Much more than 15s you've underexposed. Much less and you've overexposed.


Kent in SD

Two23
31-May-2020, 15:57
Middle ground group:
These wanted medium sized cameras with some movements and moderate sized lenses. The Kodak 2D or 2 work nicely, in 8x10 or 5x7. Also Burke and James. Usually pretty cheap. Rochester made some nice cameras, but again, their lensboards are small, usally 4.5" or so.




That would best describe me. I wanted one of the repro 19th C. cameras but realized they were fairly heavy and offered no movements. I wanted a more versatile camera than that but appearance is important to me too. I also shoot film and dry plates. I ended up with a 5x7 Gundlach Korona that is beautiful, and a Kodak 2D 8x10. These ~100 year old cameras have the brass and dark wood I'm after. For 4x5 I just use my Chamonix 045n. It's fast to set up and light to carry. I might yet buy something like a Star Camera but they do cost a lot of money and it's hard for me to justify a dedicated camera for wet plate.


Kent in SD

goamules
31-May-2020, 16:58
yes, 1/2 second is pretty common in bright sun. And if an image comes up fast and disappears during dev, esp if under 12 seconds....you blew it.

Tin Can
2-Jun-2020, 06:56
Good advice Garrett

I am not buying any petzval, too expensive and swirl is not interesting to me

I have Radar 8X10 12" f4.5 with working aperture but failed Betax 5 shutter. No problem

Here is info from 2011, https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?74402-Gundlach-Radar-Anastigmat-8x10-users&p=709094&viewfull=1#post709094

I haven't picked which Box to use, but it will not be period, most people have no idea how old any wood camera or lens is

I don't care what most think

maltfalc
2-Jun-2020, 08:19
i doubt many in the small and cheap group care about overpriced trendy petzvals when dirt cheap, easily adapted russian tessars and f/2.5 projector lenses are all over ebay.

Two23
2-Jun-2020, 08:49
I think most who do wet plate aren't in the re-enactment crowd but more in the 'arty" alternative process camp. The early anastigmats work well for that. I've mostly been using period correct lenses but have also used a 1922 Heliar, which I love, and a c.1925 Velostigmat 300mm. As for the dark box the originals were heavy wood. I need something more portable. I keep my chemicals in a padded cooler bag with blue ice now that it's suddenly hitting 98 degrees.


Kent in SD

Ari
2-Jun-2020, 09:05
I bought a Vesta lens, which is a Petzval type, but maybe not 100% kosher Petzval. It's often described as a "Petzval design".
Anyway, I bought it becaiuse I like the centre sharpness offered by this type of lens.
The swirl is not interesting to me, thus a 14" lens which fully covers 8x10 will give the look I want, without swirl.
Should arrive next week sometime.

goamules
2-Jun-2020, 09:30
A Vesta is definately a Petzval. Just F5 vs F3.8, so it doesn't have much swirl anyway.

paulbarden
2-Jun-2020, 09:33
I bought a Vesta lens, which is a Petzval type, but maybe not 100% kosher Petzval. It's often described as a "Petzval design".
Anyway, I bought it becaiuse I like the centre sharpness offered by this type of lens.
The swirl is not interesting to me, thus a 14" lens which fully covers 8x10 will give the look I want, without swirl.
Should arrive next week sometime.

I have a 15" f5 Lerebours et Secretan Petzval, and it does swirl and vignette on 8x10. See example here (https://live.staticflickr.com/4597/39367576372_70ba5de374_h.jpg). These characteristics vary by manufacturer, so YMMV.

Ari
2-Jun-2020, 09:33
Ok, thanks Garret and Paul.
I always thought the Vesta was a "modified Petzval" design.

goamules
2-Jun-2020, 09:43
The ones I've had are standard configuration. I just opened up a brass SEROCO (vesta store brand) and it's the thin lens at the rear. But you could reverse them, as with most petzvals that have threaded keepers, and no soft focus mechanism.

drewf64
2-Jun-2020, 17:31
I have a 15" f5 Lerebours et Secretan Petzval, and it does swirl and vignette on 8x10. See example here (https://live.staticflickr.com/4597/39367576372_70ba5de374_h.jpg). These characteristics vary by manufacturer, so YMMV.

Paul:
This portrait is exceptional!
I love everything about it!
I posted a copy of this photo in my work room at the top of my display board ... setting the bar very high!
Thank you for the direction & inspiration.
Drew

paulbarden
2-Jun-2020, 19:08
Paul:
This portrait is exceptional!
I love everything about it!
I posted a copy of this photo in my work room at the top of my display board ... setting the bar very high!
Thank you for the direction & inspiration.
Drew

Thank you Drew, you are very kind :-)

Ari
2-Jun-2020, 19:20
Paul:
This portrait is exceptional!
I love everything about it!
I posted a copy of this photo in my work room at the top of my display board ... setting the bar very high!
Thank you for the direction & inspiration.
Drew

2X, Paul. Aesthetically and technically superior.

Ari
9-Jun-2020, 08:30
This poor, ragged stray arrived today, gonna shoot some film with it until my chemicals arrive.
B&L Zeiss Tessar Series 1C

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49988334991_4e43459d21_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jaihqF)

paulbarden
9-Jun-2020, 09:22
This poor, ragged stray arrived today, gonna shoot some film with it until my chemicals arrive.
B&L Zeiss Tessar Series 1C

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49988334991_4e43459d21_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jaihqF)

As long as the glass is okay, it will make good images.

Ari
9-Jun-2020, 09:26
The glass is pretty rough, worse than it looks in the photo, but that's part of the reason I bought it.
I wanted something less than perfect, and probably went too far!

paulbarden
9-Jun-2020, 10:10
The glass is pretty rough, worse than it looks in the photo, but that's part of the reason I bought it.
I wanted something less than perfect, and probably went too far!

I have a Schneider Xenotar lens I used on 4x5 (Its meant for something smaller, so it vignettes), and it has a front element that looks like its been "polished" with steel wool. And yet, it delivers very nice images if used wisely. I can give a very nice "soft focus" look. So don't judge it till you've made some photographs with it, it might turn out to be a treasure! (See: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49447724063_3aca53845a_h.jpg and https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49512990411_a3379beec0_h.jpg)

Ari
9-Jun-2020, 10:15
Sweet photo, Paul. Over the years, I've found that it's damn hard to ruin a lens' picture-making ability, or image quality.
This B&L isn't even the worst-looking lens I own. All of my "ugly" lenses are excellent performers.
A petzval lens I sold in 2015 had a 1-inch long chip on the rear element. It was missing a chunk of glass.
I covered the chip in black marker, and you'd never know from the photos it made that anything was amiss.

paulbarden
9-Jun-2020, 11:40
A petzval lens I sold in 2015 had a 1-inch long chip on the rear element. It was missing a chunk of glass.
I covered the chip in black marker, and you'd never know from the photos it made that anything was amiss.

I'm not surprised! You have to do some serious damage to a lens to make it unusable, in my experience.

LabRat
9-Jun-2020, 15:00
I have one of these, untested until I make a new board for it... Has some issues on the front, but inital tests don't seem to care about the issues...

At the same time, I had a board for a 305mm WWII Aerostigmat (that looks like it spent a lot of time outside in the elements) that also had about the same amount of "issues", but it's been shooting very well despite...

I think with big glass, that there is also a lot more clear lens area that transmits more rays, so less affected by small stuff on glass...

Shoot it!!!

Steve K

Two23
1-Jul-2020, 15:31
I had a "pick up" slip on my door today, so I went down to the post office. I opened the package without looking at who it was from. I was expecting an 8x10 film holder today. I opened it up and started taking off the shrink wrap and wondered, "What the heck is this?" It didn't look like a Riteway holder at all and at first I was thinking the guy sent the wrong thing. Then I remembered: it's the plate holder from Anton! Sure enough.

It looks really nice. Very solid and everything works as it should. If it wasn't so hot out at the moment (90 F) I would put on my old clothes and try shooting an 8x10 tin. I'll knock off work early tomorrow.🙂 For those of you still waiting, yes they are coming!


Kent in SD

paulbarden
1-Jul-2020, 15:34
I had a "pick up" slip on my door today, so I went down to the post office. I opened the package without looking at who it was from. I was expecting an 8x10 film holder today. I opened it up and started taking off the shrink wrap and wondered, "What the heck is this?" It didn't look like a Riteway holder at all and at first I was thinking the guy sent the wrong thing. Then I remembered: it's the plate holder from Anton! Sure enough.

It looks really nice. Very solid and everything works as it should. If it wasn't so hot out at the moment (90 F) I would put on my old clothes and try shooting an 8x10 tin. I'll knock off work early tomorrow.�� For those of you still waiting, yes they are coming!


Kent in SD

Can we see photos of it? I'm curious how its constructed.

PS: did that 8x10 wet plate holder really cost $395??

Two23
1-Jul-2020, 16:58
Yes, $400. It takes full sized 8x10. Construction has a lot of aluminum rather than plastic and it's quite rigid. The opening for the back is rabbeted so the back does not sag inwards. The dark slide works easily and the holder is lighter than the Stenopeika but perhaps a little heavier than the 8x10 Chamonix would be (I have the 5x7 to compare.) Overall build quality is somewhat more robust than my Chamonix 5x7, but not by a lot.


Kent in SD

paulbarden
2-Jul-2020, 06:50
Yes, $400. It takes full sized 8x10. Construction has a lot of aluminum rather than plastic and it's quite rigid. The opening for the back is rabbeted so the back does not sag inwards. The dark slide works easily and the holder is lighter than the Stenopeika but perhaps a little heavier than the 8x10 Chamonix would be (I have the 5x7 to compare.) Overall build quality is somewhat more robust than my Chamonix 5x7, but not by a lot.


Kent in SD

I'll have to weigh my 8x10 Chamonix. Its quite light.
But I can't see any advantages to the Orlov holder that merits the extra $100. You''ll have to report back to us about how well it works in use. Thanks!

Ari
2-Jul-2020, 07:06
Paul, is there a holder you’ recommend instead?
For later on, I was considering a Lund holder with a 6x8 insert.

paulbarden
2-Jul-2020, 07:16
Paul, is there a holder you’ recommend instead?
For later on, I was considering a Lund holder with a 6x8 insert.

I like my Chamonix holders a lot. They're well built and VERY easy to use. I have the 4x5 Lund plate holder and I dislike it a LOT: its clumsy in design and it isn't easy to use at all. I don't know if they still use the same rotating latch design for a closure, but if they still do that, I'd avoid those holders and go straight to the Chamonix.

Ari
2-Jul-2020, 07:35
Thanks for that. I believe Lund still uses the wheel lock, yes.
I was also looking at the Stenopeika holder for occasional full 8x10 plates, with a 6x8 insert for more regular use.
I'll have a look at Chamonix, thanks.

paulbarden
2-Jul-2020, 07:51
Thanks for that. I believe Lund still uses the wheel lock, yes.
I was also looking at the Stenopeika holder for occasional full 8x10 plates, with a 6x8 insert for more regular use.
I'll have a look at Chamonix, thanks.

Be careful - I have heard more than one person say that the dark slide on the Stenopeika is so close to the emulsion plane that it can scrape the surface of the plate when removing/reinserting it.
It appears that on the current Lund plate holders, the rotating lock washer now has a dimple on it to help you manipulate it with your fingers. I bet that's an improvement, but the real problem I have had with the design is that the washer/lock is so loose that its difficult to get it to stay rotated to the unlocked position to allow you to lift the back to open it. Its a poor design choice, IMO. Maybe the newer versions are better - you could write to them and inquire.

Ari
2-Jul-2020, 07:58
Be careful - I have heard more than one person say that the dark slide on the Stenopeika is so close to the emulsion plane that it can scrape the surface of the plate when removing/reinserting it.

Rats! These looked promising.
In any case, there's no rush, I have yet to shoot a 4x5 plate. Plenty of time to contact Lund and anyone else.
Thanks, Paul.

paulbarden
2-Jul-2020, 09:19
Rats! These looked promising.
In any case, there's no rush, I have yet to shoot a 4x5 plate. Plenty of time to contact Lund and anyone else.
Thanks, Paul.

Ari, by the time you've added VAT (assuming you have to add tax) and the shipping from Italy, you might as well get one of the others that have a better track record. The Chamonix plate holder is hard to beat, trust me. And the Chamonix prices include shipping, so for an 8x10 holder, its $290. USD shipping included.

Another detail about the Lund plate holders: they have angled support corners, so that your plates will always have the corners truncated.

Two23
2-Jul-2020, 11:47
I now have four holders. I'll rank them in order of quality: (1) Anton 8x10, (2) Chamonix 5x7 (3) Lund 4x5 (fiddly but it does work), (4) Stenopeika 8x10 (numerous flaws, heavy, only made two successful plates of ~30 tries.) The easiest holder to use seems to be the Chamonix. The Lund sometimes takes a little playing with. The Stenopeika I have has never worked no matter how much "fixing" I did. Numerous problems.


Kent in SD

Ari
2-Jul-2020, 12:46
I've had bad experiences buying camera gear from Italy (see: Gibellini), so thanks, Paul. You helped me dodge a possible bullet.
Thanks for your own list, Kent.
Seems like Jody Ake is no longer making his holders, are/were they good?

ghostcount
2-Jul-2020, 14:18
Seems like Jody Ake is no longer making his holders, are/were they good?

Ake holders FTW!

Won't win the lightest holder but super durable and a pleasure to work with. Shame he stopped making them, I yearn for an 8x10 (real size).

Incidentally, Chamonix are film size holders.

Two23
2-Jul-2020, 15:06
Incidentally, Chamonix are film size holders.

Yes, about 1.5mm smaller each dimension. This is the only thing Chamonix screwed up. The only current holders I know of that are full cut are the Anton, Lund, and the very iffy Stenopeika.


Kent in SD

paulbarden
2-Jul-2020, 15:19
Yes, about 1.5mm smaller each dimension. This is the only thing Chamonix screwed up. The only current holders I know of that are full cut are the Anton, Lund, and the very iffy Stenopeika.


Kent in SD

I don’t regard this as a “screw-up” since most of us are custom cutting plates to fit our holders.

ghostcount
2-Jul-2020, 15:26
I don’t regard this as a “screw-up” since most of us are custom cutting plates to fit our holders.

Glass from Home Depot are not 1.5mm smaller. I can cut glass plates to size but I'm clumsy and I have sensitive skin. :rolleyes:

Big hardware store glass plates are convenient. Buy it, open it, clean it and shoot it.

I do have the Chamonix 5x7 and 8x10 holders.

Two23
2-Jul-2020, 16:10
I don’t regard this as a “screw-up” since most of us are custom cutting plates to fit our holders.


It means I have to add a step and buy large sheets of glass, and in winter I don't have a really good place to cut it. As is, I can go to the dollar store and buy cheap frames and just pull the glass. Much more convenient, and the only reason I didn't go with Chamonix 8x10 holders.



Kent in SD

paulbarden
2-Jul-2020, 17:15
It means I have to add a step and buy large sheets of glass, and in winter I don't have a really good place to cut it. As is, I can go to the dollar store and buy cheap frames and just pull the glass. Much more convenient, and the only reason I didn't go with Chamonix 8x10 holders.



Kent in SD

Like you, I get my 1.5mm wet plate glass from the local dollar stores. However, I have found that there are at least a dozen different styles of frame in the 8x10 size, and every one of them is a different size. In fact, even when I buy the same frame style again and again, the odds are there will be a size difference of as much as 1/4 inch. And so, I am always prepared to cut to fit as needed.

Ari
24-Jul-2020, 15:44
I want to ask about washing and drying plates.

I shoot the plates, fix 'em, and put 'em in an 8x10 tray of water.
Then I bring the tray to a sink hooked to an old Kodak siphon washer, and wash 'em.
To dry, I prop up the plates against something, they rest on a paper towel.

I had thought to make a small storing/washing/drying tank from plexiglass or PVC, but there'd always be water trying to get out.
So I've been considering this friendly item: https://www.lundphotographics.com/index.php/holding-tank-small.html

I can drill a hole in it to attach an inlet spout, and hook that up to my sink for washing.
In the field, it can hold 12 plates, freeing up the tray while I continue to work.
Take the rack out and dry the plates on a paper towel.

Sound good? What do you all use?

Tin Can
25-Jul-2020, 04:34
I do not like a 'new' size

Traditional plates were closely sized especially when DRY plates became dominant after 1870

and some clean off used plates for reuse, which was done a lot historically

Sizes of Photographs a rather complete data set

http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/1_early/1_early_photography_-_sizes.htm




I don’t regard this as a “screw-up” since most of us are custom cutting plates to fit our holders.

Ari
27-Jul-2020, 08:12
I want to ask about washing and drying plates.

I shoot the plates, fix 'em, and put 'em in an 8x10 tray of water.
Then I bring the tray to a sink hooked to an old Kodak siphon washer, and wash 'em.
To dry, I prop up the plates against something, they rest on a paper towel.

I had thought to make a small storing/washing/drying tank from plexiglass or PVC, but there'd always be water trying to get out.
So I've been considering this friendly item: https://www.lundphotographics.com/index.php/holding-tank-small.html

I can drill a hole in it to attach an inlet spout, and hook that up to my sink for washing.
In the field, it can hold 12 plates, freeing up the tray while I continue to work.
Take the rack out and dry the plates on a paper towel.

Sound good? What do you all use?

Gonna answer my own question.

I had some leftover scraps of cheap acrylic (not quality stuff), just enough to make a quick 4x5 tank.
Complicating the build is that my mitre saw is on loan to a friend who recently left on vacation :)
So this was cut by hand with a small circular saw. Not the best way to cut small pieces from brittle acrylic.

I wanted to be able to use this to keep just-fixed plates in water until I could wash them.
Then I thought it could also be used to wash the plates, so I attached a threaded hose connector to one end.
The result is crude but effective.

I'll find a plastic container with a lid so I can have this in the car, filled with water.
Anyway, here's the result.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50159311941_344312ec45_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jqpzV8)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50159552267_e63a0b1a16_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jqqPmF)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50158760538_2e2c7299d8_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jqmL1b)

ghostcount
27-Jul-2020, 09:10
I want to ask about washing and drying plates.

I shoot the plates, fix 'em, and put 'em in an 8x10 tray of water.
Then I bring the tray to a sink hooked to an old Kodak siphon washer, and wash 'em.
To dry, I prop up the plates against something, they rest on a paper towel.

I had thought to make a small storing/washing/drying tank from plexiglass or PVC, but there'd always be water trying to get out.
So I've been considering this friendly item: https://www.lundphotographics.com/index.php/holding-tank-small.html

I can drill a hole in it to attach an inlet spout, and hook that up to my sink for washing.
In the field, it can hold 12 plates, freeing up the tray while I continue to work.
Take the rack out and dry the plates on a paper towel.

Sound good? What do you all use?

For larger plates, put one of these is a plastic storage bin.

https://www.amazon.com/images/I/41wpj3I3W+L._AC_.jpg

https://www.amazon.com/OXO-Good-Grips-Compact-Dish/dp/B007SU1WUW/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=dish+rack+small&qid=1595865665&sr=8-9

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=plastic+storage+bin&rh=p_85%3A2470955011&dc&qid=1595866095&rnid=2470954011&ref=sr_nr_p_85_1

Ari
27-Jul-2020, 09:17
For larger plates, put one of these is a plastic storage bin.

https://www.amazon.com/images/I/41wpj3I3W+L._AC_.jpg

https://www.amazon.com/OXO-Good-Grips-Compact-Dish/dp/B007SU1WUW/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=dish+rack+small&qid=1595865665&sr=8-9

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=plastic+storage+bin&rh=p_85%3A2470955011&dc&qid=1595866095&rnid=2470954011&ref=sr_nr_p_85_1

Sweet, thanks!