PDA

View Full Version : Should there be a Wet Plate subforum?



Tin Can
25-May-2020, 12:21
May as well start a new thread as I don't see one elsewhere...

As Wet Plate is DIY, why not here?

Perhaps the Mods will allow all size plates in this thread

I do plan to shoot from 1/6th plate to as big as i can one far off day

paulbarden
25-May-2020, 15:14
May as well start a new thread as I don't see one elsewhere...

As Wet Plate is DIY, why not here?

Perhaps the Mods will allow all size plates in this thread

I do plan to shoot from 1/6th plate to as big as i can one far off day

Question: what is the goal of this thread? Is this meant to serve as a kind of collodion sub-forum? Serious question here. Its unclear to me from your opener what you'd like this to become. :-)

Tin Can
25-May-2020, 17:54
I wonder why we do not have a dedicated thread for users, does this thread belong in LF film processing? Here (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/forumdisplay.php?19-Darkroom-Film-Processing-amp-Printing)

I have never made one, but I am ramping up

Discussing gear, chems, tips and images both good and bad could help more people than I

Some of us cannot take a class for a variety of reasons, especially right now

and I see much of my LF gear can be used for wet plate

I








Question: what is the goal of this thread? Is this meant to serve as a kind of collodion sub-forum? Serious question here. Its unclear to me from your opener what you'd like this to become. :-)

Ari
25-May-2020, 18:41
Do you intend for this thread be devoted to the exploration of wet plate as a novice would experience it?
A place to share newbie discoveries and mistakes?
Or a repository of wet plate information for all levels of practitioners?

paulbarden
25-May-2020, 19:54
Seems to me that if its intended to be a lasting repository of technical information, it shouldn't be a single thread, but a distinct section of the forum. But this would be a bit of an anomaly, as the form doesn't currently include sections specific to particular techniques. (IE: there is no specific forum for Cyanotypes, for example)
I think it would serve us well to have a separate forum here called Alternative Processes, which would include Wet Plate, Albumen Printing, Platinum/Palladium etc. None of these alt processes fits easily into any of the current sub forums.

paulbarden
25-May-2020, 19:58
Some of us cannot take a class for a variety of reasons, especially right now

I would recommend you acquire a copy of Quinn Jacobson's book Chemical Pictures, which is now available as a non-limited edition (and as such, is much less expensive). If Quinn doesn't talk about it in his book, then you don't need to know it - he's been very thorough. And besides, with the book are 40+ instructional videos (online access) that demonstrate many of the techniques that a new practitioner has a hard time grasping without seeing it demonstrated. It is very good value, trust me. I can give you a link to the book if you wish.

Paul

Two23
25-May-2020, 20:12
Seems to me that if its intended to be a lasting repository of technical information, it shouldn't be a single thread, but a distinct section of the forum. But this would be a bit of an anomaly, as the form doesn't currently include sections specific to particular techniques. (IE: there is no specific forum for Cyanotypes, for example)
I think it would serve us well to have a separate forum here called Alternative Processes, which would include Wet Plate, Albumen Printing, Platinum/Palladium etc. None of these alt processes fits easily into any of the current sub forums.


I agree there should be a separate forum. The interest is there.


Kent in SD

Two23
25-May-2020, 20:17
I would recommend you acquire a copy of Quinn Jacobson's book Chemical Pictures, which is now available as a non-limited edition (and as such, is much less expensive). If Quinn doesn't talk about it in his book, then you don't need to know it - he's been very thorough. And besides, with the book are 40+ instructional videos (online access) that demonstrate many of the techniques that a new practitioner has a hard time grasping without seeing it demonstrated. It is very good value, trust me. I can give you a link to the book if you wish.

Paul


Have not seen the Jacobson book but I'm sure it's good. Another very good one is from Mark Osterman, who runs the workshops at the Eastman Kodak Museum. I have the John Coffer manual "Doer's Guide." It too comes with several DVDs. It and some Youtube videos were all I needed to get started. I bought my kit from Bostick & Sullivan and they are very helpful on the phone when I needed a quick answer. So far I've bought most of my supplies from Bostick & Sullivan, Lund, UV Photographics, in that order.

The best series of wet plate instruction I've seen so far is probably this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msgPl7kWxLI&t=30s



Kent in SD

Two23
25-May-2020, 20:43
My favorite guy to watch is the Topshit guy. Knowlegeable AND entertaining! I really like this guy. He's done some nice informative blogs in the past although lately he's kind of gone off rails and is running around naked in the woods. Still fun to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPIe4b3gYVo&t=23s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POEPy88XQGg&t=156s


Kent in SD

cuypers1807
25-May-2020, 21:13
This thread already exists: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?101014-Collodion-Wet-Plate-Images

Tin Can
26-May-2020, 04:18
Sub topic thread "Collodion - Wet Plate Images"

Do you want an image thread clogged with ???


This thread already exists: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?101014-Collodion-Wet-Plate-Images

Tin Can
26-May-2020, 04:20
I do follow Topshit, good videos


My favorite guy to watch is the Topshit guy. Knowlegeable AND entertaining! I really like this guy. He's done some nice informative blogs in the past although lately he's kind of gone off rails and is running around naked in the woods. Still fun to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPIe4b3gYVo&t=23s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POEPy88XQGg&t=156s


Kent in SD

Tin Can
26-May-2020, 04:21
Yes, Alt Prints fall right into this query




Seems to me that if its intended to be a lasting repository of technical information, it shouldn't be a single thread, but a distinct section of the forum. But this would be a bit of an anomaly, as the form doesn't currently include sections specific to particular techniques. (IE: there is no specific forum for Cyanotypes, for example)
I think it would serve us well to have a separate forum here called Alternative Processes, which would include Wet Plate, Albumen Printing, Platinum/Palladium etc. None of these alt processes fits easily into any of the current sub forums.

Tin Can
26-May-2020, 04:22
Yes, both



Do you intend for this thread be devoted to the exploration of wet plate as a novice would experience it?
A place to share newbie discoveries and mistakes?
Or a repository of wet plate information for all levels of practitioners?

Ari
26-May-2020, 10:30
Wet plate, like large format photography, can be as DIY as one chooses.
I think something like this would be better served by having its own sub-forum, much like ULF and Digital Processing already have.

paulbarden
26-May-2020, 14:12
Wet plate, like large format photography, can be as DIY as one chooses.
I think something like this would be better served by having its own sub-forum, much like ULF and Digital Processing already have.

Agreed. There is FAR too much information to be shared about the process than can be comfortably fit into a single thread.

Ari
26-May-2020, 14:48
Since Paul and I agree, it's a done deal!
And Oren would be too busy modding the new sub-forum to notice all the gratuitous bumps we're giving our FS ads. Win-win!

Joking aside, I think there's momentum here for a wet plate sub-forum.
What's more, with other WP fora shutting down or becoming read-only, having a "living" wet plate forum would be of great benefit to quite a few here, and would likely attract new members.
There's a wealth of knowledge and experience to be shared between LF users and wet plate practitioners, and plenty of overlap in the two disciplines.

Tin Can
26-May-2020, 15:26
Yes, perhaps 'Hysterical Processes'






Wet plate, like large format photography, can be as DIY as one chooses.
I think something like this would be better served by having its own sub-forum, much like ULF and Digital Processing already have.

Two23
26-May-2020, 15:31
Since Paul and I agree, it's a done deal!
And Oren would be too busy modding the new sub-forum to notice all the gratuitous bumps we're giving our FS ads. Win-win!

Joking aside, I think there's momentum here for a wet plate sub-forum.
What's more, with other WP fora shutting down or becoming read-only, having a "living" wet plate forum would be of great benefit to quite a few here, and would likely attract new members.
There's a wealth of knowledge and experience to be shared between LF users and wet plate practitioners, and plenty of overlap in the two disciplines.

Exactly my thinking. Wet plate is clearly on the increase. The two FB groups have about 10,000 members between them.



Kent in SD

Oren Grad
26-May-2020, 15:38
I've moved the thread to "Feedback" and renamed it. Further thoughts are welcome.

Tin Can
26-May-2020, 16:09
YES!

As I plan to contact print wet plates once DRY

on DIY print emusions

When one has a hammer everything looks like a nail

or historical railroad spike

Perhaps the sub forum needs an expansive inclusive title...

Mark Sawyer
26-May-2020, 18:03
Large format is a small enough sub-genre of its own.

Duolab123
26-May-2020, 20:10
YES!

As I plan to contact print wet plates once DRY

on DIY print emusions

When one has a hammer everything looks like a nail

or historical railroad spike

Perhaps the sub forum needs an expansive inclusive title...

So does wet plate call for POP for your paper? I'm a total ignoramus Re wet plate, but wouldn't the peak of wet plate have been with salt prints, or albumen, early gelatin POP???

Duolab123
26-May-2020, 20:11
Or Platinum or Carbon!!

Tin Can
27-May-2020, 04:41
I haven't started to learn, and never made a any plate

First I will make Tins, then Plates and when one looks good Salt and Albumen contacts will be added.

Baby steps

I want a dedicated Sub Forum so it does not get lost in the vastness of LFPF archive.

Many have problems with LFPF search, which is best done with Google only. Precise wording is required

In essence this starts with a single line of text.




So does wet plate call for POP for your paper? I'm a total ignoramus Re wet plate, but wouldn't the peak of wet plate have been with salt prints, or albumen, early gelatin POP???

paulbarden
27-May-2020, 06:17
So does wet plate call for POP for your paper? I'm a total ignoramus Re wet plate, but wouldn't the peak of wet plate have been with salt prints, or albumen, early gelatin POP???

Most practitioners make positives (tintypes, alumitypes, ambrotypes, etc.), which does not require any further steps to produce an image. However, wet plate collodion negatives are loaded with rich detail and tonality that can be used to make salt prints, albumen prints, traditional silver gelatin prints, and more. Its all up to the photographer how they wants to use the process for image making.

Two days ago I made a new silver bath, so I could perform maintenance on my main bath, and I needed to make a test plate to verify its performance, so I made an 8x10 negative using the 190mm Wide Field Ektar (which I don't typically use for making wet plate negatives: too much detail) I produced two negatives of similar density: one would work well for silver gelatin printing and scanning to make a DNG, and the other I redeveloped with Iodine/Iron redeveloper to build density and contrast for "alt" print making, such as albumen or salt. Here is the result of a scan of the first plate (not redeveloped), showing the detail and tonal range possible with a wet plate negative:

Here it is (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49936123887_2669215a7b_5k.jpg).



I want a dedicated Sub Forum so it does not get lost in the vastness of LFPF archive.

Many have problems with LFPF search, which is best done with Google only.

I agree with both of these statements. Thanks to people like Borut Peterlin, Quinn Jacobson, John Coffer and others, the Wet Plate process is enjoying a surge in interest that seems to expand every year. Since Quinn has retired his own wet plate forum, it would be a great asset to have a dedicated forum section here where practitioners could share knowledge and seek help. This is a fussy, complicated process at times, and it appears to me that every newcomer needs help learning their way through the technique. It would be nice to have a place for that here. I've said this before: Facebook may be a popular place to go for stuff like this, but its terrible when it comes to archiving valuable data. And that's not even mentioning Facebook's horrible "walled garden" approach to "community".

rdenney
27-May-2020, 07:44
Okay, this thread is branching--let's see if we can focus it. A few people are saying there is interest in a forum devoted to (my reading) DIY emulsions including wet-plate collodion.

1. Are there enough people interested in this to support a subforum? The usual way we test that is to see how threads do.

2. Where would we draw the boundary? Can we draw the boundary to image-capture only, versus darkroom processes? That appeals to me as reasonable--a sub-forum for discussions of techniques for creating photographs made using emulsions applied by the photographer. Would that suit?

Let's NOT talk about the techniques and processes of wet plate in this thread, now that it has been moved to Feedback. If we create a forum, let's save it for there. If we do it in a series of threads, that's where those discussions should be.

As to showing images, those image forums are agnostic to process, though threads in those forums already provide process-based segregation. But there's nothing against people showing examples of their process-specific photographs in threads that discuss those processes. Bet let's save those technical discussions for a bit until we figure this out.

Rick "gathering data" Denney

paulbarden
27-May-2020, 08:11
2. Where would we draw the boundary? Can we draw the boundary to image-capture only, versus darkroom processes? That appeals to me as reasonable--a sub-forum for discussions of techniques for creating photographs made using emulsions applied by the photographer. Would that suit?
Rick "gathering data" Denney

I'm confused by this. The question is whether or not we should be creating a distinct area to focus on the wet plate collodion process. I see no point in drawing a line to create a distinction between Emulsion Process and Darkroom Process. The wet plate process can be (and often is) both things. Even if the way forward is to create a more inclusive "All Things Alt" sub-forum, I still see little value in drawing lines between camera process and subsequent darkroom process, because - for example - if you make wet plate negatives with the intention of making prints from them, there is value in being able to find data in the same place. After all, POP print making is "creating photographs made using emulsions applied by the photographer", which is intimately related to making the collodion negative.

Paul "offering data" Barden

paulbarden
27-May-2020, 08:29
Okay, this thread is branching--let's see if we can focus it. A few people are saying there is interest in a forum devoted to (my reading) DIY emulsions including wet-plate collodion.

Actually, the question is "Should there be a Wet Plate sub-forum". This came in response to the fact that Quinn Jacobson recently eliminated the discussion forum component of his web site, and so a couple of people suggested we 1) preserve the content of Quinn's forum and 2) make a place for it here, and allow for continued discussion.

Ari
27-May-2020, 08:38
Actually, the question is "Should there be a Wet Plate sub-forum". This came in response to the fact that Quinn Jacobson recently eliminated the discussion forum component of his web site, and so a couple of people suggested we 1) preserve the content of Quinn's forum and 2) make a place for it here, and allow for continued discussion.

I'd like to see a wet plate sub-forum, dedicated solely to the wet plate process. Of course something like printmaking from collodion glass negatives can be a thread of its own, much like I can envision "Collodion Recipes" or "Pouring a Plate Evenly" or "What type of Fixer is Safe for Home Use?" etc etc.
Those of us who are starting/re-starting in wet plate may have ambitious goals, but we're mostly getting the B&S starter kit and hoping for the best.
More experienced practitioners, like Paul, are going in some other directions while still shooting WP, and I'm sure they'd have lots to say about their respective goals and processes, and would want WP-based threads to be able to further those goals.

Ari
27-May-2020, 08:40
I'm confused by this. The question is whether or not we should be creating a distinct area to focus on the wet plate collodion process. I see no point in drawing a line to create a distinction between Emulsion Process and Darkroom Process. The wet plate process can be (and often is) both things. Even if the way forward is to create a more inclusive "All Things Alt" sub-forum, I still see little value in drawing lines between camera process and subsequent darkroom process, because - for example - if you make wet plate negatives with the intention of making prints from them, there is value in being able to find data in the same place. After all, POP print making is "creating photographs made using emulsions applied by the photographer", which is intimately related to making the collodion negative.

Paul "offering data" Barden


And there's overlap in the chemicals, too. The same WP processes are used for negatives and positives, much of the chemistry is the same (with some tweaking perhaps), so making a distinction between emulsion and darkroom is quite unnecessary.

paulbarden
27-May-2020, 10:36
And there's overlap in the chemicals, too. The same WP processes are used for negatives and positives, much of the chemistry is the same (with some tweaking perhaps), so making a distinction between emulsion and darkroom is quite unnecessary.

Yup.

Steve Goldstein
27-May-2020, 10:44
One of the great problems with the Internet is the diffuse and repetitive nature of information. There seem to multiple Facebook groups on almost any topic you can imagine, photo-related or not. I imagine that a wet-plate or alt-process or whatever subforum here would have a much higher signal-to-noise ratio than something on FB, but is it appropriate or productive to duplicate a resource that already exists - on Photrio (see picture)?

I don't have any skin in this game, nor do I expect to in this lifetime, I just think this should be part of the discussion.

Mods, feel free to delete if you think this post is not a positive contribution to the topic.

rdenney
27-May-2020, 11:22
Okay, I think I agree to not restricting it to image-capture.

Here's the risk of broadening it to all alt-processes: This is a large-format photography forum, not generally a chemical process forum. Of course, chemical process is fundamentally linked to large format, in the absence of workable digital capture methods, so much discussion of chemical processes is absolutely on point with the large format topic.


So, we will always draw the line when the topic bleeds so far away from the large-format focus that it loses touch with the purpose of this forum. There's not much risk of that happening when discussing wet-plate, of course. But we have to make sure we keep that focus, and that focus isn't as automatic for many alternative processes. Which leads me to think that it should be "large-format wet plate, and nothing but". Of course, wet plate images smaller than 4x5, like all smaller format images, have a place where they can be displayed, and certainly some discussion would be agnostic to format, just as it is in some of our other sub-forums.

But we would expect a wet plate sub-forum here to be about wet plate for large format photographers, whereas Photrio would not apply that constraint.

Rick "just thinking out loud to elicit comments for consideration by the mods" Denney

Ari
27-May-2020, 11:26
But we would expect a wet plate sub-forum here to be about wet plate for large format photographers, whereas Photrio would not apply that constraint.



I think that's a reasonable expectation and it should be fairly easy (i.e. very little moderation) to keep within the bounds of that definition.

Tin Can
27-May-2020, 11:36
I don't want to go to APUG

I have my reasons

However sometimes I chase a topic to there

OK, no Tiny Plate, they will be orphaned...

Yet I love my Carte de visite collection and will emulate in my cave

I still disagree with exclusion of plate/sheet holders of small stature to ghetto

They still, are are not ROLL FILM, yet even roll film was once LF

Peace

Corran
27-May-2020, 13:00
One thing about this forum, is that we simply have the "LF Forums" that encompass everything from "Announcements" to "Style and Technique," along with the Community area and then on top the "Site Forums" which is more like general/feedback.

It seems to me that many forums have more granulation - say, a "Cameras and Lenses" section that would include:

Camera and Camera Accessories
Cameras (ULF)
Lens and Lens Accessories
etc.

Next would be "Darkroom" perhaps, including all the darkroom / film processing / printing subfora. Maybe a hybrid or digital section, etc. etc., with finally coming to the point of this thread, an "Antique Processes" or whatever would be an appropriate heading, and then under that, the "Wet-plate" subforum, along with other kinds of forums to discuss albumen, salt printing, carbon, whatever. Perhaps some of these can be grouped in some way, not sure how to call it.

Just a thought. I don't really have much to contribute on this front, but I would certainly be interested in reading.

By the way, in reference to the forum that is being shut down, another possible "subforum" could be a copy of that forum in read-only. Perhaps difficult to do.

Tin Can
27-May-2020, 16:23
Just bought the Quinn book as described in this thread.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?158231-Collodion-websites-closed&p=1552569&viewfull=1#post1552569

I will have half and half to practice pouring by noon.

Onward

paulbarden
27-May-2020, 17:32
Just bought the Quinn book as described in this thread.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?158231-Collodion-websites-closed&p=1552569&viewfull=1#post1552569

I will have half and half to practice pouring by noon.

Onward

I hope you bought the 2019 edition? It’s a much expanded version with vastly more information.

Two23
27-May-2020, 17:40
As it turns out, pouring collodion is pretty easy. It's more viscous than your half & half. The single hardest part is learning the relationship between developing time and exposure.


Kent in SD

Tin Can
28-May-2020, 04:22
Good to know...

Tin Can
28-May-2020, 09:18
I bought the 2020 May 22 Version with video


I hope you bought the 2019 edition? It’s a much expanded version with vastly more information.

Ari
28-May-2020, 10:42
I have the earlier version, which I bought in 2015.
Does the expanded 2020 version (the one on Amazon) have a DVD or does it give you access to the online tutorials?

goamules
28-May-2020, 11:07
Do you guys remember "The Great LF Wiki" idea/dream of about 2-3 years ago? Where only good, vetted info would be posted, as a grand repository in the sky? Only written by "experts", dedicating their time and life's experience to putting it down for free for anyone? Yeah, I remember, and it died on the vine as I predicted.

To me, that is what a guidebook is for, for wetplate. If you just want to learn the chemistry formulas, the process, and the equipment, buy a guidebook.

If you just want a separate "post wetplate photos" section, that's easy and should have been done 10 years ago.

If you want to have some user question/answers and techniques discusssed for wetplate, I'd have sections on:

1. Equipment needs, cameras and lenses. Making, buying, adapting.
2. Chemistry, problem solving and techniques to store, make, buy, use
3. Developing and finishing techniques.
4. Results, show your work.

paulbarden
28-May-2020, 11:10
I have the earlier version, which I bought in 2015.
Does the expanded 2020 version (the one on Amazon) have a DVD or does it give you access to the online tutorials?

Online tutorials via Vimeo login. You can download copies to your own computer.

Tin Can
28-May-2020, 11:12
I have the earlier version, which I bought in 2015.
Does the expanded 2020 version (the one on Amazon) have a DVD or does it give you access to the online tutorials?

Access to online tutorials

I think the book is print on demand, maybe get it June 5 or earlier

goamules
28-May-2020, 11:13
Too many sub sections, you get loss of engagement (already a big risk on here, very few active members any more). Too few, like just one big "wetplate" section, you get a free for all with no way to keep track. A La, facebook.

Wait....is this thread about "Should there be a wetplate subforum", or about "what guide book should I buy?" - See what I mean? Focus..... If you are answering 99% of ALL posts here, you might want to take a breather.

Tin Can
28-May-2020, 11:14
Agree to all points




Do you guys remember "The Great LF Wiki" idea/dream of about 2-3 years ago? Where only good, vetted info would be posted, as a grand repository in the sky? Only written by "experts", dedicating their time and life's experience to putting it down for free for anyone? Yeah, I remember, and it died on the vine as I predicted.

To me, that is what a guidebook is for, for wetplate. If you just want to learn the chemistry formulas, the process, and the equipment, buy a guidebook.

If you just want a separate "post wetplate photos" section, that's easy and should have been done 10 years ago.

If you want to have some user question/answers and techniques discusssed for wetplate, I'd have sections on:

1. Equipment needs, cameras and lenses. Making, buying, adapting.
2. Chemistry, problem solving and techniques to store, make, buy, use
3. Developing and finishing techniques.
4. Results, show your work.

Tin Can
28-May-2020, 11:16
Oren inserted 'should'

My original title is dust



Too many sub sections, you get loss of engagement (already a big risk on here, very few active members any more). Too few, like just one big "wetplate" section, you get a free for all with no way to keep track. A La, facebook.

Wait....it this thread about "Should there be a wetplate subforum", or about "what guide book should I buy?" - See what I mean? Focus..... If you are answering 99% of ALL posts here, you might want to take a breather.

Oren Grad
28-May-2020, 11:33
Oren inserted 'should'

My original title is dust

Yeah, the forum question was raised, and I figured we should engage it squarely rather than have it smoulder on in a thread buried in one of the substantive subforums. So please stay focused here on the "whether" and "how" questions re a subforum, and pursue the materials/resources/techniques questions elsewhere.


If you just want a separate "post wetplate photos" section, that's easy and should have been done 10 years ago.

If you want to have some user question/answers and techniques discusssed for wetplate, I'd have sections on:

1. Equipment needs, cameras and lenses. Making, buying, adapting.
2. Chemistry, problem solving and techniques to store, make, buy, use
3. Developing and finishing techniques.
4. Results, show your work.

Clearly spelled out, thanks. It looks like this could amount to a forum-within-a-forum, largely or entirely segregated from the rest of the Forum. Would appreciate thoughts as to whether that is in fact the case, and if so the pros and cons of it.

Ari
28-May-2020, 12:09
Online tutorials via Vimeo login. You can download copies to your own computer.

Does one need to be a Vimeo subscriber?

Tin Can
28-May-2020, 13:56
Got my B&S kit just now

It's in the decontamination zone

More Saturday

paulbarden
28-May-2020, 14:42
Does one need to be a Vimeo subscriber?

No, Quinn gives a login and password to access the tutorials. No Vimeo account needed.

Ari
28-May-2020, 14:54
Thanks, Paul.

Tin Can
28-May-2020, 14:56
Additionally we can download and save the vids, which I really like


Thanks, Paul.

Ari
28-May-2020, 15:13
Thanks, Randy. Very nice to have that feature.
I have a lot of WP materials on order, some for the camera, most of it for the process. A few extras too, like glass beakers, which I foolishly sold in 2015.
Won't all be here for a few more weeks, the post office is very much backlogged and understaffed, but I'm just grateful they're still in operation.

I wouldn't have much to add to a WP sub-forum if it started today, but in a few weeks, I'll be all over it.

Tin Can
28-May-2020, 16:26
My plan is to study Quinn thoroughly

set up gear and make some decisions

then start

I am good at book learning if the book is good

I loved using Cummins Diesel Engine OE manuals to rebuild and Dyno test

Every detail and step was explained in text and pics, with specs, the engines ran LN

Corran
28-May-2020, 16:28
If you want to have some user question/answers and techniques discusssed for wetplate, I'd have sections on:

1. Equipment needs, cameras and lenses. Making, buying, adapting.
2. Chemistry, problem solving and techniques to store, make, buy, use
3. Developing and finishing techniques.
4. Results, show your work.


Clearly spelled out, thanks. It looks like this could amount to a forum-within-a-forum, largely or entirely segregated from the rest of the Forum. Would appreciate thoughts as to whether that is in fact the case, and if so the pros and cons of it.

I feel like this was getting lost in the noise being the 10th post and other stuff burying it to last page. So bump for Oren ;). It's not illegal here, right :p.

Oren Grad
28-May-2020, 16:47
I feel like this was getting lost in the noise being the 10th post and other stuff burying it to last page. So bump for Oren ;). It's not illegal here, right :p.

;)

One measure of how serious the interest is, is the extent to which people are willing to go beyond "we want" to think through the details of what exactly it is that they want, so that we can figure out whether we can make it work here. Garrett has stepped up with a substantive proposal, will anyone else follow?

Two23
28-May-2020, 17:09
Got my B&S kit just now

It's in the decontamination zone

More Saturday

Really no need to "decontaminate." There's been hundreds if not thousands of tracings done now and I don't recall a single instance of someone catching something that was shipped days ago. Remember, this stuff is shipped by ground and that takes a number of days.


https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS788US788&q=Can+the+coronavirus+disease+spread+through+delivered+packages%3F&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjz6afn49fpAhXSLs0KHX9CAXcQzmd6BAgLEA0&biw=1745&bih=990


Kent in SD

Ari
28-May-2020, 19:53
I don't have much experience with forum-building or maintaining. Garrett does and his points are valid.
Some sections or threads would be started more organically, due to someone having trouble with the process, or someone musing about a dark box build, for example.
This is already how this forum is loosely structured: there are broad categories, and we start threads within those categories to answer questions, to help others or to add to the database.
Is it up to the mods to determine what the threads should be? Or can we not simply open a new Wet Plate sub-forum and see where it goes, letting it grow (or die) on its own? Do we need to justify its existence right now, or can we build it and see if they come?

If it please the mods, I can think of several topics right now. I could add 20-40 more if I sat down and imagined I had only first heard of wet plate last week.

Where can I get X piece of equipment? Can I make it instead?
How do I make a wet plate holder?
How do you determine exposure?
Can I use flash?
Do you travel with wet plate?
Is there a Civil War re-enactment nearby I can take photos at?
Why are my fingernails black?
Do you use a helper tray for development?
I have $300 and I want to shoot wet plate...
I don't have a Petzval, can I use any kind of lens? What would be a good starter lens for $300?



And so on.

Corran
28-May-2020, 19:58
Most of those could be posted on the various subforums here already though, right? What do you think a dedicated WP subforum brings to the table?

I am merely asking to engender discussion - I also think a dedicated subforum or section would be cool. My thoughts in post 37 are really a complete restructuring of the forum/subforum listings which may or may not be amenable to most but would help organize sections. including a WP or antique process subforum area.

Which reminds me, it seems a lot of folks here simply use the "unified view" to view ALL threads regardless of subforum. Not me, I don't get that.

Two23
28-May-2020, 20:16
I don't have much experience with forum-building or maintaining. Garrett does and his points are valid.
Some sections or threads would be started more organically, due to someone having trouble with the process, or someone musing about a dark box build, for example.
This is already how this forum is loosely structured: there are broad categories, and we start threads within those categories to answer questions, to help others or to add to the database.
Is it up to the mods to determine what the threads should be? Or can we not simply open a new Wet Plate sub-forum and see where it goes, letting it grow (or die) on its own? Do we need to justify its existence right now, or can we build it and see if they come?

If it please the mods, I can think of several topics right now. I could add 20-40 more if I sat down and imagined I had only first heard of wet plate last week.

Where can I get X piece of equipment? Can I make it instead?
How do I make a wet plate holder?
How do you determine exposure?
Can I use flash?
Do you travel with wet plate?
Is there a Civil War re-enactment nearby I can take photos at?
Why are my fingernails black?
Do you use a helper tray for development?
I have $300 and I want to shoot wet plate...
I don't have a Petzval, can I use any kind of lens? What would be a good starter lens for $300?





I've looked into most of that in the past and have some thoughts:

1. I've both bought and made some of my equipment. I made the dark box (2), bought the holders and silver tank.
2. The 4x5 holders aren't too expensive, about $100.
3. You have to guess exposure, take a test shot, and then adjust for the next exposure.
4. Generally need a LOT of flash, like 4800ws.
5. Can't take it on an airplane, but by car all you need is a portable dark box.
6. Civil War re-enactments are tricky. Most already have a photographer who has paid to be there. You don't want to compete. The advice I hear is to shoot something different, such as negatives instead of tins etc.
7. If your fingers turn black your rubber gloves are leaking. The solvents in collodion can sometimes cause that.
8. It can be done if very bare bones and depending on what you have camera wise to start with.
9. A rapid rectilinear would also be period correct and they're fairly cheap. You can use any lens but I prefer to use 19th C. ones myself. It's part of the look.


Kent in SD

Ari
28-May-2020, 20:20
Most of those could be posted on the various subforums here already though, right? What do you think a dedicated WP subforum brings to the table?

I am merely asking to engender discussion - I also think a dedicated subforum or section would be cool. My thoughts in post 37 are really a complete restructuring of the forum/subforum listings which may or may not be amenable to most but would help organize sections. including a WP or antique process subforum area.

Which reminds me, it seems a lot of folks here simply use the "unified view" to view ALL threads regardless of subforum. Not me, I don't get that.

If there are enough people interested in learning the process, discussing methodology and showing their results, does a new sub-forum need more justification than that? I don't know how or exactly when some other sub-fora started. How many people shoot ULF here? Or large/medium format digital back? They each have a sub-forum.

I think one thing a dedicated sub-forum would do is bring together - deliberately - the LF and WP disciplines. It would also provide a specific repository of wet plate knowledge as it pertains to using large format cameras. It would add another dimension to what we do and see here.
And I think it would liven things up a little. Let's face it: even if film is making a comeback or whatever, this forum has gotten quieter in the last few years. By its very nature, there's repetition as a few newbies come up and ask the same questions (which is great!) but only a few stay.

But you're right, if this is the proving ground for starting a new sub-forum, interest seems to be lukewarm so far.

PS - I never use the unified view either.

Ari
28-May-2020, 20:26
Kent, I meant those as possible sub-forum headers, not as questions I have right now, but thanks for being helpful with the answers!

Corran
28-May-2020, 21:01
Another thought - I could be wrong, but I don't remember a ton of threads about WP. Is the reason for this simply that there was a popular forum or forums elsewhere for that? And if so, will the orphans from that forum having shutdown be interested in participating here?

Certainly for most, wet plate necessitates the use of LF, so a robust community of WP practitioners here makes perfect sense.

Two23
28-May-2020, 21:34
Another thought - I could be wrong, but I don't remember a ton of threads about WP. Is the reason for this simply that there was a popular forum or forums elsewhere for that?.


I think twenty years ago not many were doing it. Then starting maybe ten years ago it started picking up. I've been wanting to try it for the past three or four years but thought it might be too hard to start on my own. Finally I saw someone actually doing it at a re-enactment and it looked like something I could do. I think it's been picking up more & more interest the past three years. Part of this is due to YouTube instructional videos and a few manuals becoming available. There are now at least three suppliers in the U.S., and that's not counting Freestyle etc.


Kent in SD

rdenney
28-May-2020, 21:46
Most of those could be posted on the various subforums here already though, right? What do you think a dedicated WP subforum brings to the table?

I am merely asking to engender discussion - I also think a dedicated subforum or section would be cool. My thoughts in post 37 are really a complete restructuring of the forum/subforum listings which may or may not be amenable to most but would help organize sections. including a WP or antique process subforum area.

Which reminds me, it seems a lot of folks here simply use the "unified view" to view ALL threads regardless of subforum. Not me, I don't get that.

If I’m just seeing what people are up to, I use “New Posts”. If I’m researching a problem or digging into a specific interest, I might go directly to a sub forum. Our structure supports both approaches.

I don’t think we want to restructure the current organization. It has grown organically as topics emerged that needed a place where there would be more signal and less noise. Some are defined by use case, and some by technology. That’s okay—it doesn’t have to be one or the other.

I agree that we would not dictate threads—threads would go where they go. Interesting topics would get lots of discussion. That’s the culture of LFPF, it seems to me.

Traditionally, we’ve tested the idea of a new sub-forum by seeing how threads on that topic do in more general sub-forums. We’ll be looking into that.

Rick “keep those cards and letters coming” Denney

Mark Sawyer
29-May-2020, 02:41
After further thought, I've decided there should be a "Wet Plate Subforum".

Specifically for wet plate images of submarines.

Maybe two subforums, one for the ships and one for the sandwiches...

Tin Can
29-May-2020, 04:27
I need what you are smokin

Welcome aboard!


After further thought, I've decided there should be a "Wet Plate Subforum".

Specifically for wet plate images of submarines.

Maybe two subforums, one for the ships and one for the sandwiches...

Ari
29-May-2020, 05:23
After further thought, I've decided there should be a "Wet Plate Subforum".

Specifically for wet plate images of submarines.

Maybe two subforums, one for the ships and one for the sandwiches...

Those would be some very wet plates, indeed.

Mark, are you "dang opposed!" or "dang opposed, consarn it!"?

paulbarden
29-May-2020, 06:30
Another thought - I could be wrong, but I don't remember a ton of threads about WP. Is the reason for this simply that there was a popular forum or forums elsewhere for that? And if so, will the orphans from that forum having shutdown be interested in participating here?.

One of the reasons this is being proposed is because the collodion.com discussion forum was shuttered by its owner recently, because he decided it was too costly to maintain. It was the last/only forum for discussion if technique and to seek help with technical problems. (Facebook doesn’t count as an alternative)

Corran
29-May-2020, 07:02
I know - hence the question, but perhaps I was unclear. Are a substantial # of members from that forum going to "migrate" here? Is the addition of a WP subforum predicated on the idea that WP practitioners need/want a specific "area" of the forum, rather than generally posting in appropriate subforums already here? What about the forum repository from collodion.com?

Perhaps some of y'all with a large amount of working experience could also write up some of your basic technical procedures to be added as part of the "Articles (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/forumdisplay.php?28-LF-Home-Page-Articles-amp-Reviews)" section?

paulbarden
29-May-2020, 08:37
Are a substantial # of members from that forum going to "migrate" here? Is the addition of a WP subforum predicated on the idea that WP practitioners need/want a specific "area" of the forum, rather than generally posting in appropriate subforums already here?

I expect a fair number of members from collodion.com already are here.
What exactly is "the appropriate subforum" for this topic?? It has always confused me in the extreme where to post content specific to this process, as there seems to be no "appropriate" place for it!

I get the impression there are a lot of members here who feel a subforum specifically for the wet plate (and perhaps other alt/antique) process is unwarranted. That's fine. At this point I don't care if this idea is embraced or not, but I did think it was unfortunate that the only place we had to go to discuss technique and share our knowledge was retired from service, leaving nothing but Farcebook as the alternative. If LFPF doesn't want to create a home for the refugees from collodion.com, then so be it. Considering how poorly wet plate work is received on this form anyway, it seems unlikely to be of much benefit to the wet plate photographers anyway. This probably isn't a good fit. I don't have the energy to fight for this.

Corran
29-May-2020, 08:58
I wasn't a member, and I see the forum is not accessible, so do you know what the membership looked like? How many active members and that kinda thing? For example, the forum homepage here says:

"There are currently 614 users online. 112 members and 502 guests"
"Threads 142,100 Posts 1,484,898 Members 42,689 Active Members 3,304"

As for your second question...forgive me, I'm not an avid WP practitioner, though I've made some plates with a friend. But here's Garrett's list earlier, with what seems like appropriate subforums:

1. Equipment needs, cameras and lenses. Making, buying, adapting.
- Cameras & Camera Accessories
2. Chemistry, problem solving and techniques to store, make, buy, use
- Film, Processing & Printing (okay, they should add "plates" to this one)
3. Developing and finishing techniques.
- Same?
4. Results, show your work.
- Image Sharing (LF) & Discussion

Do these topics fit there?

Tin Can
29-May-2020, 09:02
As already noted, I got the B&S kit

Found just now, it is missing the Hydrometer, due to backorder

I don't know what type as I await my Quinn book

I do know it's important to adjust Silver bath

I want to buy one today, what do I need?

paulbarden
29-May-2020, 09:12
As already noted, I got the B&S kit

Found just now, it is missing the Hydrometer, due to backorder

I don't know what type as I await my Quinn book

I do know it's important to adjust Silver bath

I want to buy one today, what do I need?

Any standard wine makers hydrometer works fine. The idea is to measure the AgNO3 value of a brand new silver bath (Typically a new bath of 9% AgNO3 measures between 1.069 and 1.075 on a hygrometer scale) and then measure the bath every once in a while (depends on how often and how heavily you use it) and add silver nitrate crystals to replenish it. A new bath can make a LOT of plates before it becomes seriously depleted, but its a good practice to check it fairly often (usually during regular maintenance) so that you maintain the silver content at a fairly even level, rather than allowing it to drop way low and then add a lot of AgNO3 to bring it back to where it should be: this will affect the performance of your chemistry as a whole. There are enough variables in the process without having to guess what your silver bath is doing.

Andreas
29-May-2020, 09:16
1) Methylene chloride works best for assembling silver and fixer tanks.
2) Red plexiglass is not opaque to UV light.
3) Silver nitrate stains puts your eyesight and your mariage at risk.

I am glad I found this by experience, but a well structured forum would be a great resource as well
Have been (a mostly silent) member of both LFPF and Quinn's forum

Tin Can
29-May-2020, 10:42
Thanks, Paul

Very good advice

I do want to check the Silver Bath before any usage

These days backorder could mean, never, as suppliers dry up




Any standard wine makers hydrometer works fine. The idea is to measure the AgNO3 value of a brand new silver bath (Typically a new bath of 9% AgNO3 measures between 1.069 and 1.075 on a hygrometer scale) and then measure the bath every once in a while (depends on how often and how heavily you use it) and add silver nitrate crystals to replenish it. A new bath can make a LOT of plates before it becomes seriously depleted, but its a good practice to check it fairly often (usually during regular maintenance) so that you maintain the silver content at a fairly even level, rather than allowing it to drop way low and then add a lot of AgNO3 to bring it back to where it should be: this will affect the performance of your chemistry as a whole. There are enough variables in the process without having to guess what your silver bath is doing.

Two23
29-May-2020, 10:52
As already noted, I got the B&S kit

Found just now, it is missing the Hydrometer, due to backorder

I don't know what type as I await my Quinn book

I do know it's important to adjust Silver bath

I want to buy one today, what do I need?

If you mix your silver according to directions you will be fine. I've started two new baths now and both were right on the money when I mixed them.

I will add that when messing with silver nitrate outside the tank always wear gloves and eye protection. The crystals are even more dangerous.

Kent in SD

paulbarden
29-May-2020, 11:13
If you mix your silver according to directions you will be fine. I've started two new baths now and both were right on the money when I mixed them.

I will add that when messing with silver nitrate outside the tank always wear gloves and eye protection. The crystals are even more dangerous.

Kent in SD

Bostick & Sullivan ships their wet plate kits with the silver bath already prepared, in bottles. He won't be mixing his own silver bath, at least this time. But what Kent said is almost guaranteed to be true for you in the future as well: if you make up a silver bath at the recommended rate (9 grams of AgNO3 to 100ml of distilled water) then you will find the specific gravity of the bath is automatically within tolerances of 1.068 to 1.075 (give or take). Not once have a made up a new silver bath and found it to have an SG outside of those values.

Maintaining the specific gravity of the bath does, however, require the purchase of AgNO3 crystals. And as Kent states, handling silver nitrate crystals does require great care: work in a space where nothing/nobody can interrupt what you're doing, wear eye protection, and gloves. If you observe common sense handling precautions, there's nothing to be concerned about. But you don't need to rush out and buy silver nitrate crystals right away: it may take weeks of use before you need to replenish the bath.

A couple of notes regarding the Bostick kit:

- it comes with a small amount of Nitric acid, intended for use to acidify the silver bath. Avoid using this at all, if possible, as it will have the effect of decreasing the speed of your poured plates, and potentially add unwanted contrast. Quinn makes a very clear and compelling case in his book for avoiding the addition of Nitric acid to the bath.

- the kit also includes a small amount of Amino silane bonding agent. AVOID USING IT (All it ever did when I used it was make a mess of the plates and ruin good collodion). It is in the kit to assist you in getting good adhesion of collodion onto glass. If you clean the glass properly and use a 1/8 inch of albumen applied to the edges of the plate (I can demo this for you, if need be) then you will have no difficulty getting the collodion to adhere to the plate. Its not as difficult to get a clean plate as some people think. Quinn's instructions are very clear and he demonstrates it in the videos. Stick to what he recommends and you will avoid most of the problems new practitioners commonly encounter.

Tin Can
29-May-2020, 11:18
Yes, age 21 worked in a Chem lab

I quit over sloppy techs, one my boss

25 years later that one showed up at my favorite lab

Soon fired for theft

The idiot brought back the stolen trinkets, which proved the theft

I just bought the missing Hydrometer


If you mix your silver according to directions you will be fine. I've started two new baths now and both were right on the money when I mixed them.

I will add that when messing with silver nitrate outside the tank always wear gloves and eye protection. The crystals are even more dangerous.

Kent in SD

paulbarden
29-May-2020, 11:25
I just bought the missing Hydrometer

Better to spend the $15 than wait for months and still no hydrometer.

Tin Can
29-May-2020, 11:25
I like the albumin, nitric acid and silane tips.

I am not setting up until I have everything

AND after I study Quinn

I already have some silver grains for other methods, unused...


Bostick & Sullivan ships their wet plate kits with the silver bath already prepared, in bottles. He won't be mixing his own silver bath, at least this time. But what Kent said is almost guaranteed to be true for you in the future as well: if you make up a silver bath at the recommended rate (9 grams of AgNO3 to 100ml of distilled water) then you will find the specific gravity of the bath is automatically within tolerances of 1.068 to 1.075 (give or take). Not once have a made up a new silver bath and found it to have an SG outside of those values.

Maintaining the specific gravity of the bath does, however, require the purchase of AgNO3 crystals. And as Kent states, handling silver nitrate crystals does require great care: work in a space where nothing/nobody can interrupt what you're doing, wear eye protection, and gloves. If you observe common sense handling precautions, there's nothing to be concerned about. But you don't need to rush out and buy silver nitrate crystals right away: it may take weeks of use before you need to replenish the bath.

A couple of notes regarding the Bostick kit:

- it comes with a small amount of Nitric acid, intended for use to acidify the silver bath. Avoid using this at all, if possible, as it will have the effect of decreasing the speed of your poured plates, and potentially add unwanted contrast. Quinn makes a very clear and compelling case in his book for avoiding the addition of Nitric acid to the bath.

- the kit also includes a small amount of Amino silane bonding agent. AVOID USING IT (All it ever did when I used it was make a mess of the plates and ruin good collodion). It is in the kit to assist you in getting good adhesion of collodion onto glass. If you clean the glass properly and use a 1/8 inch of albumen applied to the edges of the plate (I can demo this for you, if need be) then you will have no difficulty getting the collodion to adhere to the plate. Its not as difficult to get a clean plate as some people think. Quinn's instructions are very clear and he demonstrates it in the videos. Stick to what he recommends and you will avoid most of the problems new practitioners commonly encounter.

Tin Can
29-May-2020, 11:27
Yes, I am very worried about worldwide shortages of everything


Better to spend the $15 than wait for months and still no hydrometer.

Tin Can
29-May-2020, 11:41
One more piece just delivered, the French Silver Tank

I will open it tomorrow after my usual 24 hour decontamination period

I know some say, don't worry it was packed a week ago, but it was handled by 10 people today, including me

I wash my hands often

Ari
29-May-2020, 11:44
I finally nailed down an order with Main Trophy.
There's a huge difference in prices between them and the three local (Ottawa, Canada) trophy places I called.

Oren Grad
29-May-2020, 11:55
Start another thread in one of the Darkroom subforums, 'kay? This time we'll just let it go.

rdenney
29-May-2020, 19:05
Okay, guys--we've just created a new sub-forum for wet-plate photography. I will move this thread there, and reopen it. Have at it.

I would suggest a discussion on what guidance-type threads could be created to serve as stickies.

Rick "good luck!" Denney