Tray print washer question

[Ben Calwell]

I've been eyeing tray-based print washers, since they're much less expensive than the upright models that separate the prints. Anyone use these? It seems to me that unless you're washing just one print, multiple prints would stick together requiring one to shuffle through the stack frequently to achieve thorough washes. Currently, I wash my 8x10 fiber prints in an ordinary 11x14 darkroom tray. I shuffle constantly through, say, 4 to 5 prints with running water, and I also dump all the water frequently and refill. This gets to be pretty tedious, so my question is, with a tray-based print washer, does one still have to stand there and shuffle through prints during the total wash time? Do the jets in these trays somehow negate the need to shuffle prints? If I have to stand there and chaperone the wash process, I'll just save my money and continue what I've been doing, as mind-numbingly tedious as it is.

[Luis-F-S]

I would think that there has to be a reason why all the archival print washers I am aware of are vertical. The Zone VI tray is just that: a holding tray prior to the archival wash. The jets do not keep the prints separated. It is inadequate for more than one print at a time. Since I typically wash for around an hour or so, I'm not standing there and shuffling through the stack. Since I bough my washers over 20 years ago, they're all paid for and I have no idea what I even paid for them.

[Ben Calwell]

I would think that there has to be a reason why all the archival print washers I am aware of are vertical. The Zone VI tray is just that: a holding tray prior to the archival wash. The jets do not keep the prints separated. It is inadequate for more than one print at a time. Since I typically wash for around an hour or so, I'm not standing there and shuffling through the stack. Since I bough my washers over 20 years ago, they're all paid for and I have no idea what I even paid for them.


Thanks. I suspected that the jets in those trays wouldn’t keep keep prints separated. I guess they’re nice for one print, though.

[Oren Grad]

I use a good old-fashioned Kodak Tray Siphon for RC prints, one or two at a time... and a Versalab washer for a session's worth of FB prints that need a long wash. Yes, if you use a tray device for a pile of prints, you need to shuffle them manually.

[Jim Noel]

Try the Ilford technique. Place the prints ina large tray of water. Shuffle through the m 3 or 4 times . Change the water and repeat. repeat until you have used 5 trays of water. Tye prints will be as clear of thiosulfate, etc as they will be withanhour in a vertical washer. Faster, cleaner and it saves water.
Ihave an excellent vertical washer, but usually use this tray method.

[interneg]

The time, agitation, total changes of water method that Jim outlines above is, if used with hypo clear and checked with residual hypo testing (as you should with any vertical washer) absolutely fine - all that vertical washers have in their favour is their need for less space (and in some models) the slots are isolated from each other so that prints already washing aren't affected by ones fresh from the hypo clear.

[bob carnie]

I would love to make a vertical washer for murals, kind of what I have seen of videos of Clyde Butcher has.. if anyone has plans for one of these I would love to see them... I would use the hard grey plastic like I used for my oversize sinks, the guy who made them is no longer in business.

[Vaughn]

Once the film of chemicals is washed off the surface of the paper on both sides (which should be done before starting the wash, IMO), its all osmosis, baby!

[Ben Calwell]

Try the Ilford technique. Place the prints ina large tray of water. Shuffle through the m 3 or 4 times . Change the water and repeat. repeat until you have used 5 trays of water. Tye prints will be as clear of thiosulfate, etc as they will be withanhour in a vertical washer. Faster, cleaner and it saves water.
Ihave an excellent vertical washer, but usually use this tray method.

Jim - excellent idea! I’ll try the Ilford method. For 8x10s, I’m thinking an 11x14 tray would be big enough?

[Pere Casals]

since they're much less expensive than the upright models that separate the prints.

You can DIY one, use any plastic box, this is $10 at ebay:

203717
https://www.ebay.es/itm/Heavy-Duty-Plastic-Stacking-Industrial-Euro-Storage-Containers-Boxes-Crates/114041614766?hash=item1a8d68f1ae:m:mfwAoSG4K-M5hP7H1FGHFNQ

You can make several drills in the bottom to allow watter to exit to the sink, you may throw in water form several points, use acuarium hardware for that ... and with hot glue attach some plastic separators.


If you print proffesionally every day you will want real pro gear, but if you print for fun like me then this DIY is perfect.


Two additional things about washing:

First, be careful with fixing, a too long fixing may end in fixer penetrating the base and later it will be very difficult to remove that fixer, consider two bath fixing, your fixing will be perfect and fixing time never will have to be too long.

Second, if your water is hard enough then after washing consider a final bath in distilled water, it can be water treated with an ($100) rev osmosis device.

Tap water may contain a lot of salts, when water dries salt remains. If you weight your paper when wet and when dried you know how much tap water dired in ml, and from your salt content in mg/L, so how much salt per m2 was incorporated in the paper from tap water.

Not only fixer may leave salts in the paper, also tap water can, and that salt may rise salt content in a way long Life Expectancy is challenged.

We are to place a rev osmosis filter in our darkroom, it is also useful to mix chem for long storage.

[LabRat]

A quote from Cleric's guide was "The first 10 wash minutes washes out the hypo, the rest of the time washes the tank" which means the fixer itself washes out early, but the wash water needs to have a lower concentration of thiosulfate complexes than the remains in the paper or osmosis stops... Changes of water lower the concentration, but the jets tend to keep the paper separate, but too much flow near them creates a "boundary layer" on the surfaces that inhibit this transfer...

Tray washing with 10 changes of fresh water trays (with 5 min in each) is archival, but a lot of handwork, lifting each print and draining throughly and placing in next tray "back to back, belly to belly" does it...

One problem with washers is during prolonged washes, if microscopic rust is in tapwater, it can slowly start building along an edge of the print that is closest to the tank feed... I would get a slight orange edge on prints that washed for over an hour and a half...

[Pere Casals]

I would love to make a vertical washer for murals, kind of what I have seen of videos of Clyde Butcher has.. if anyone has plans for one of these I would love to see them... I would use the hard grey plastic like I used for my oversize sinks, the guy who made them is no longer in business.

Bob, I was considering making a water wall inspired in dust collection systems:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwEXuktc2tw

It would be an inclinated board (in the water wall is vertical) with something collecting water at the bottom, and a pump recirculating the liquid to the top.

This would take developer one shot, the water stop, the fixer one shot and washing water (dumped and refilled several times).

I'm considering to place that inside a ULF Jumper 2 L2H2 van I'm projecting, I've the van yet, but it should also work in a darkroom, in that case water could be continuously replaced.

The challenge is to adhere the print to the wall, I was considering placing suction ports in the top of the wall (several areas with perforated plating) and using a vacuum pump.

[Ulophot]

Just to add to the Ilford method (my choice as well):

I have started using Photographers' Formulary F5 fixer, which offers a short fixing time and less tendency to cling to the paper than some others, while allowing some flexibility with extended fix time. However, since I tend to spend hours working on a single negative and keep an initial proof print for filing, and sometimes prints along the way to my final ones for review later. I also use Permawash and a final wash, Ilford style, when I'm all done. They add up to about 15 minutes and give me prints that consistently test very clean.

I don't print larger than 11x14 any longer. I have a plastic tub like this one (https://tinyurl.com/y7r4v3tr) into which I have drilled two sets of holes in one end: one set of small ones (3/32"?)about 1" from the bottom, one set of larger (3/16"?) about a quarter inch above them. Thus, I can keep a holding bath of a gallon of water, adding a modest flow from time to time, or
dump and refill; I can also increase the flow up to the larger holes, which, combined with the lower, let pass about a gallon a minute.

I rinse fixer off prints gently, both sides, with a faucet hose before adding them to the wash tub, but my water stays off most of the session.

[interneg]

If you want to make internal separators in a vertical washer that hold on to the print through surface tension, prismatic diffusion material out of light fittings is essentially what a number of well known European washer brands use. If weight is an issue and internal chemical isolation of prints from each other doesn't matter as much, look at how the DeVille washers use plastic strips suspended between top and bottom bars to make a basket to separate and hold the prints.

It is also important to consider the flow pattern/ rate so that you get a good wash without wasting water or dislodging the print and crumpling it under its own weight.

No need to re-invent the wheel in overly complex ways.

[rdenney]

I have an Oriental vertical print washer from the old days, but it only goes to 11x14. For 16x20, I used the Ilford method. I didn't make prints that large all that often.

I even have an old Arkay washer, but that didn't solve the problem of the water being contaminated by the most recent prints inserted into it. It's good for a batch of small prints, though.

Rick "who often used resin-coated papers for production work" Denney

[LabRat]

RC only needs a few minute wash or bad things happen later...

A tray siphon washer before next print is made, and a place to dry immediately (after a sponge wipe) saves time over FB when session is done...

Steve K

[Exploring Large Format]

Bob, I was considering making a water wall inspired in dust collection systems:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwEXuktc2tw

It would be an inclinated board (in the water wall is vertical) with something collecting water at the bottom, and a pump recirculating the liquid to the top.

This would take developer one shot, the water stop, the fixer one shot and washing water (dumped and refilled several times).

I'm considering to place that inside a ULF Jumper 2 L2H2 van I'm projecting, I've the van yet, but it should also work in a darkroom, in that case water could be continuously replaced.

The challenge is to adhere the print to the wall, I was considering placing suction ports in the top of the wall (several areas with perforated plating) and using a vacuum pump.Oh how I wish we had one of these water walls when I did stone/brick work. Hours breathing that dust, with and without masks! Not good!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Jim Noel]

Jim - excellent idea! I’ll try the Ilford method. For 8x10s, I’m thinking an 11x14 tray would be big enough?

That is what I use.

[Drew Wiley]

I made my own Plexiglas slot washers in 11X14, 16X20, and 20X24 inch models, and a different style for big 30X40 inch prints, though for those big ones, just a big tray and a Koday tray siphon works pretty well. You can do food coloring dye tests with washers to get a pretty good idea of their efficiency. But I switched to TF4 fixer for everything quite awhile back, which rinses out easier, though I still give fiber-based prints a full hour in the washer, just to be certain. Remember, rinse water has to efficiently get both behind and in front of the print, so you need a design where the print doesn't cling to a smooth surface. I use tiny silicone (not vinyl) hemispherical self-adhesive bumpers on the washer septums. They work great for developer tray bottoms too.

[wclark5179]

“multiple prints would stick together requiring one to shuffle through the stack ”

Yes, I find that’s true.

I do own a print washer but use it only when I have a number of prints to wash at a time.

For me, I primarily use RC paper. Much better for what I do.

[Willie]

Don't know if it is still reality but a few decades ago some Cities in California made it illegal to sell or use Kodak Tray Siphon print washers as they wasted too much water. Could not even buy them in some of the Cities. Don't know if that is still the situation. Even though Drew uses one maybe he can check to see if it is realityi?

[Jim Noel]

Don't know if it is still reality but a few decades ago some Cities in California made it illegal to sell or use Kodak Tray Siphon print washers as they wasted too much water. Could not even buy them in some of the Cities. Don't know if that is still the situation. Even though Drew uses one maybe he can check to see if it is realityi?

I have been in Cal since 1961 and never heard of such a thing.

[Tin Can]

I recall a rule, in CA when I was there, 70's

'If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down'

Then I was in OR, many signs

'Don't Californicate Oregon'

Never got to Washington or Alaska, the only states I missed

Next life....

[Willie]

I have been in Cal since 1961 and never heard of such a thing.

Jim, my Uncle was dealing with Samy's Camera(LA) and needed to replace a Kodak Tray Siphon and was told they could not carry or sell them because of the restriction. A few decades ago - when A&I was going big with Kodachrome processing.

[Jim Noel]

It must have been an LA problem. Water was short in San Diego as well, but tray siphons were available in the stores I frequented.