I hate digital

[C.A]

I've been a large format user for a while now and apart from the sheer build and beauty of a wood view camera I enjoy the whole considered process of taking a picture with this format. I'm so use to seeing a large focusing screen that when I blew the dust off my mamiya for a shoot the other day I felt like I was peering through a key hole. The thing is when other photographers clutching their plastic fantastic hi-tech digi cameras see me using a huge wood view camera on a mother of a tripod they ask why bother and think I'm a bit mad. Has anyone else had a negative reaction, friends laughing, or people thinking your just plain nuts for not keeping with the times and turning into a digital fanatic

[Brian Vuillemenot]

Not so long ago at a major Colorado Plateau tourist location, I had a guy mock my use of a view camera to his girlfriend and other onlookers. He had a cheap digital camera, and commented with a chuckle that I couldn't afford and wasn't sophisticated enough to use the latest digital. Although most people I meet in the field are polite, positive, and supportive, I've had several other spectators make somewhat derogatory comments about me being stuck in the 19th century, as though my use of a view camera must be because I'm ass backwards or overly nostalgic, not because of the awesome quality of the images produced. I don't even bother trying to explain to these folks my reasons for using it. It's amazing how many ignorant yahoos are out there.

[Michael Graves]

There is a time and a place for digital photography. Rarely (IMHO) is that time and place in the world of art. I illustrated my last four books using digital cameras. No way shape or form was I going to blow through two hundred sheets of 4x5 or 5x7 film on a project where the largest image would be 4" wide and badly reproduced at the printer who gave the publisher the lowest bid.

The digital does a passable job for shooting color snaps at family gatherings. I have a Canon Rebel XT with an 8.2mp CMOS sensor, so it makes nice images. Again, nothing that ever came out of it even closely resembled art except when my 14-year-old son was using it. That kid gets amazing things out of it.

But for "real" photography, give me my 5x7 Toyo every time. Hopefully, I soon feel the same way about my 810M as well. I never developed a love affair for the 2D. Don't know why.

[Oren Grad]

Never. I guess I should consider myself lucky. On those occasions when I've been out in the field with a wooden view camera and somebody has stopped to say something, it has always been some sort of remark about how cool it is and/or friendly and very reasonable questions about it - what do you take pictures of, what kind of film does it use and where can you get it, what kind of lens do you use, things like that.

[David Richhart]

It's a lot of tun to go out with the old Speed Graphic once in a while and blow a few sheets of film "shooting from the hip"

But the "Look at Jimmy Olson" joke started to get old after hearing it 20+ times...

[John Kasaian]

Quite the contrary I find most onlookers to be polite and curious. I nearly always offer a peak under the dark cloth, which nearly always rewards me with a gasp and sigh and a "wow!" from the newly introduced. The bloke you met with the digi sounds like an insecure little f*rt trying to look tough for his girlfriend. As clever as a smart come back might be, I'd recommend ignoring the dude. He has His agenda and you have yours---to take great photos(I hope!)

[Andrew O'Neill]

I always got mixed comments. Most people were always quite impressed when they saw my 8x10 all set up. The negative comments usually came from teens and twenty-something people. I heard "haven't you heard of digital yet?" so many times from them. But they don't know. They don't even know that there is such a thing as LF photography. I teach digital photography in my graphics class to high school students. I ALWAYS brought in my 8x10, lenses, holders and a few negatives for them to look at (this was before I had everything ripped off...I still haven't replaced anything...I've kept my sanity by printing negatives that have never seen the light). My biggest challenge with these kids is getting them out of the "I'll fix it in photoshop" mindset. So, I can't wait until I've replaced my gear and can get out there again, taking pictures and educating the public!

[Jeff_6094]

I think I met the same jerk at that major Colorado Plateau tourist location! I wanted to throw him over the rim and tell his young daughter what a ........ he was.

[John_4185]

I hate digital whining and rants.

[Doug Dolde]

Yeah quit whining. Watch this and get some spirit

www.reuters.hu/card_dom/index_content.html (http://www.reuters.hu/card_dom/index_content.html)

[Donald Qualls]

As long as I can get film to feed my large format cameras, I don't much care what those digital "photographers" think of me with my monorail and survey tripod and what not -- or with my 75+ year old plate cameras, for that matter.

If my computer stopped working tomorrow, I might not bother to fix it -- it would eat up my film budget for months, and the only time I'd miss it would be for ordering film and posting scans (and I can borrow one for those applications). And if the digital camera quit, I for certain wouldn't replace it...

[Ken Lee]

Recently someone came jogging by, and advised me in mock compassion: "You don't have to do that any more: They have digital cameras now !".



When I have used a wooden camera, I have attracted admirers and made friends. When I shot in the same locations with my Arcas Swiss Discovery, people left me conmpletely alone. Perhaps black metal cameras look very high-tech and serious.

[Emre Yildirim]

Ken,

I think you are right. When I used to go out and shoot with my Sinar F2 people almost always thought it was some high-end, oversized digital camera. The same is true for my Toyo 45AII - which looks sort of high-tech (especially with the built-in focusing hood unfolded). The only time I get condenscending looks is when I use my Tachihara. Several people have asked me if it was antique, or why I would waste such a great shot on a film camera. It's kind of ironic, because at the time I thought the guy with the digital camera was wasting the shot, not me.

[David Luttmann]

I just tell them it's a 48MP camera. This impresses them....and makes me laugh that they're that easily fooled.

[Emre Yildirim]

But I can get at last 270MP from a 4x5 scan :D

I guess you're right though - if I say it's a 270MP camera, they won't believe me. 48MP sounds more believable.

[John Flavell]

I guess I'm lucky. I have both worlds going on at the same time, and those worlds are very different. I have to use Nikon D2hs at work and couldn't do the job without them. I have the 4x5 for ME and I couldn't make the same pictures with the digitals. Sometimes I even carry a Leica SLR with black and white loaded.

Another thing I've noticed is people want to talk about both. I'm around hundreds of people a day with the digitals and most have interesting and intelligent questions about them. (Mostly the lenses, like the 300 2.8)

No one has ever made a negative comment about the large format camera. In fact, it becomes a conversation starter and people seem surprised to find out they're still around; not just a thing of the past. It's odd how people on a trail will stop and wait until I'm finished with an exposure before asking anything.

In October I was on top of Sandia Mountain above Albuquerque trying to make a picture in a gale and a couple stood there for a good half-hour, watching. HE didn't understand what I was trying to make a picture of and SHE just wanted to look through it. They both got to look and both were satisfied. THEY bought the coffee at the snack bar while they asked questions.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I think most people like hearing about these different kinds of photography and that each one has a unique purpose.

It seems to me that those with little dinky digital cameras making negative comments about large format photographers just don't have a clue about photography. They're holding apples in their hands making snide remarks about oranges.

[tim atherton]

Maybe it's just that we attract the enquirers and comments we deserve? Good/bad karma and all that....

Sounds like it

[Eric Leppanen]

I've been shooting LF for five years now, and I only remember one or two incidents where someone obliquely implied that digital was a better way to go. Most folks are intrigued by my cameras (particularly the 8x10) and eager to talk about the camera in particular and photography in general. Aside from one incident with a suspicious local county park ranger who thought I was a commercial photographer (commercial photography is prohibited in our local parks without a permit), I can't recall a single unpleasant episode involving people and my LF cameras. I guess I'm lucky.

Digital is a fabulous solution for certain applications, and I carry a D70 with me on my LF photo trips as a snapshot camera, so I have a foot in both worlds. But most folks will readily accept that fifty pounds worth of LF equipment will in the right circumstances produce stunning results, far beyond what a smaller format can produce. When I clarify that 8x10 inches are the dimensions of each sheet of film I use, rather than the size of the enlargements I make, that gets a lot of folks' attention!

[Jim collum]

>Rarely (IMHO) is that time and place in the world of art.

... and film will never produce real art... and watercolor will never produce real art.. acrylic paint? ha! real artists use oil. .and grind their own pigments

come on. it's the eye. not the tool.

world class art is coming out in digital... as well as film... and will continue to do so.. 30 years from now, when whatever replaces digital, will have the same people lamenting that the new technology can never be art.l

[Jim collum]

.. and i've seen as much technically perfect images produced from 4x5 film with no soul as i have with digital

[robc]

"I hate digital"

whats to hate about digital? Its just an inanimate entity which apparently you don't use. Perhaps you mean you hate people who practice digital photography which might make more sense. But that would be bigotry.

[Nitish Kanabar]

I guess I'm lucky that I've had quite pleasant conversations with people when shooting with my 4x5 camera. It is a conversation starter and I usually allow folks a peek under the ground-glass - that always makes them smile.

[adrian tyler]

i always get good reaction when i go in the city with a wooden 4x5, especially from girls! do you have any other antisocial peculiarities apart from hating the overwelming majority of other photographers (those who use digital)? if you are interested in positive social interaction perhaps you could get some kind of professional help.

[John Berry ( Roadkill )]

I have mostly positive curiosity. As has been stated I always offer a look under the cloth. Most say that's cool. If they ask if it's digital I tell them yes, I use my digits to turn the knobs, or it is a variable density 8x10 inch 1 pixel camera, then I pull out a holder and say look at the size of the compact flash. It's only one but it's a bigun. I shot nothing but digital for 4 years, and now have gotten back into LF. If some dork just wants to impress his girl at my expense I can and will chump him big time.

[Dave Moeller]

Ken Lee wrote:

Recently someone came jogging by, and advised me in mock compassion: "You don't have to do that any more: They have digital cameras now !".
The appropriate response would have been, "You don't have to do what you're doing either...they have cars now!"

[Jim Rhoades]

My only gripe with digital is that my local "Pro" supplier no longer carrys L/F film, chemicals or paper. Now I mail order everything. Wherever I look at my friends or sister-in-laws digigraphs I'm the one that's laughing.

[Richard Martel]

Doug, Thanks for the GREAT singing Christmas card...Richard

[Walt Calahan]

Digital has its place in the world. It's a tool like everything else. What you do with the tools is what matters, not the tool itself.

For me, using high end digital has taught me how to make better scans from my 4x5 and 8x10 sheet film. Digital gets me out with a camera when I wouldn't normally want to take one out the door (Nikon S1 Coolpix when walking my dogs). Digital has made me lots of money (Nikon D2H, and soon Nikon D200) because clients need quick returns on their projects.

LF film gives me peace of mind and wonderful joy, because when I use LF, it is my time, my creativity, and my fun in connecting with the world.

Recently I was standing in the snow for about an hour waiting for the late afternoon light to get good on a scene. There I was with my big Ries tripod, KB Canham 8x10 lightweight wood field camera, and a Nikkor 800-mm lens trained on a farmers field with alternating rows of corn and snow. Many cars swept past with out stopping. Then a large service van stopped (plumber's or electrician's). The driver got out, walked to me, and pulled out his Nikon 950 Coolpix digital camera with a smile. He said "I know my camera can't do what yours does, but the scene is so pretty I want to remember it and want to thank you for pointing it out to me."

It was nice that my photography got someone to stop to "smell the roses" without even seeing the finished print. For that working guy in his winter overalls I made a difference and we shared a wonderful moment because he had a digital camera. He knew his image wouldn't match mine, but he enjoyed photography to carry a camera on the job for moments like this. The moment made standing in the cold very worth it.

[Ken Lee]

The appropriate response would have been, "You don't have to do what you're doing either...they have cars now!"



Laughing out loud - Excellent !

[Dave Langendonk]

I've had nothing but positve interactions from people. Most are very curious and want to look through the glass. Especially at popular locations like the Grand Canyon etc. Others want to shoot with their digicam from where I've set up, assuming it must be a great spot for this guy to set up this big camera there. I usually let them step in front of me while I'm adjusting this or that. The only time I had a near negative comment about "why don't you just get a digital camera like everybody else" from a guy, his wife corrected him before I did. Only after she explained the benefits of large format did I add my 2 cents worth.

[Frank Petronio]

If you're going to photograph in public, it helps to have a sense of humor. 99.9% of the people are nice and curious.

[Ben Calwell]

As I've posted before on this forum, the only person who gives me grief for shooting film is a know-nothing clerk at my local camera store. He always manages to get in some kind of condescending remark about how film is on the way out and that I should get with the times. I brought in a roll of color film to be developed the other day, and he said, with much drama and exageration in his voice: "Wow -- I haven't seen one of those in a long time!"

[Jacques Augustowski]

I love steam engines

[Steven Barall]

I work with the 4X5 mostly in Central Park in NYC. My favorite part of the day is when people want to talk to me about the ins and outs of working with large format. People ask really smart questions and are often very engaging. Some are just curious and ask how old the camera is but others ask technical questions about camera movement, lenses and film. Others ask conceptual questions that are quite challenging.

A woman I met a month ago wanted to know how, conceptually, using a large format camera would make portraits different from ones made with small format cameras. I've met musicians who talk to me about how the color and contrast of their sound is affected by the technical aspects of their instruments the way that different lenses and films affect those same things in photography. I've spoken to a man who was from a town somewhere in Central America and there was a photographer in his town who had a large format camera and it reminded him of his childhood and he just wanted to tell me that.

This kind of stuff happens every single time. These people are as much a part of the landscape as the trees and rocks and meeting them and talking to them is as much a part of the rich experience of photography as making the picture is.

[Eduardo Aigner]

http://eduardoaigner.com.br/45/pintadaIMG_3809.jpg

Look at this: poor kids say WOW! to LF: "it's inverted!"

[Steve J Murray]

I fail to see how using a large format camera is somehow antithetical to using digital camaras and vice versa. Sure, I will use my 4x5 to capture the detail of a landscape, like I have for over 30 years, but for spontaneous people shots, or sheer visual experimentation, the DSLR is amazing. For instance, I just shot our family christmas party last weekend. 154 shots on one memory card. Natural room light, no flash using 1000-1600 iso with a great old 50mm f 1.8 lens. The result: wonderful color balance despite many types of room light, low "grain" probabaly less that if I had used 400 iso film, many warm spontaneous shots that I can put on a CD and mail to family who were there or who couldn't make it.

So, why does using a view camera mean you have to hate digital cameras? I think of myself as a visual artist who uses whatever medium that best does the job. Not all photography is still life and landscapes. Duh. I relish my DSLR for what it does for me. Its expanded my creative vision.

Narrow, ridgid thinking is what gets my goat.

[FpJohn]

Hello:

I find my 6x9 AS fc attracts curiosity and interested but never rude comment. This can be inconvenient given a need for concentration and vagaries of light. It also gives occasion for pointing to the value of the local landscape. I must contrive to use it in Central Park as well, but here in the Upper Saint John River Valley the final, gentle, suggestion is always that I should get a digital camera.

Best to you all for the holidays
Frank

[Rory Roopnarine]

Love the doggie in the background checking out your camera, Eduardo!

[Andre Noble]

Eduardo's lens board does not look fastened on the bottom. Nice lens though.

[Bob Herbst]

I spent two weeks in September photographing with my 12x20 deep inside Canyonlands National Park in southeastern Utah where only people with serious 4WD vehicles can go and not have to be towed out. It was an experience of a lifetime. I felt like a modern William Henry Jackson except I used a Ford Explorer instead of a horse drawn wagon to get me and my 175lbs. of camera gear, film, etc. and another 200lbs of camping gear there. The day I hiked down into the Maze from our campsite on the rim with nothing more than a canteen of water and 3.3 Mpixel digital camera, I realized that there is a real place for digital cameras and digitally enlarged negatives for making plantinum/palladium prints. Just try to get any large format camera into these remote locations and you will need several teenagers or twenty-somethings to be your mules, but I doubt you will ever get a 12x20 into the Maze. You WILL need ropes and don't try to climb out in the mid-day sun. It is not an easy climb. I speak from experience and it was only 85 degrees in the shade that day. I photographed the Land of Standing Rocks, the Chocolate Drops and Maze, and the Needles from a distance with the 12x20 from the rim of the Maze. To photograph from down inside the Maze would be virtually impossible without a major expedition and funding.

Today there is still no comparison between a contact print from film and a print from a digitally enlarged negative. I know because I have done both and teach both, but in a few years, the digital technology will have evolved to erase such distinctions. Eventually, film will be obsolete except for the cachat of still shooting film. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy shooting film, but soon it will not be necessary to achieve equivalent print quality for contact printing processes such as Pt/Pd printing.

I still shoot 12x20 and film, but you can't deny that digital can do things and get to places that will never see an ultra large format camera. Open your mind to the possibilities and options. "To everything, turn, turn, turn, there is a season, turn, turn, turn. And a time for every purpose under heaven". I've taught platinum/palladium printing from film and digital negatives for many years. Both have their place.

Bob Herbst

[Pete Watkins]

Do you weigh all your gear when you are out photographing stuff or do you weigh it before you leave home. Why? If you can carry it it's not a problem. If you can't leave the scales at home.
PETE

[John_4185]

Do you weigh all your gear when you are out photographing stuff or do you weigh it before you leave home. Why? If you can carry it it's not a problem.

Funny, but gear always weights more towards the end of the day. I theorize that it has to do with the placement of the sun and total exposure. The farther West the sun, and the longer one has been under it, the heavier things are. To compound this phenonema, the effect upon individuals is cumulative - the older one gets, the more profound the effect of the setting sun.

(Then there is the mystery of things shrinking as they travel away. Still working on that one.)

[Eduardo Aigner]

Andre is right about the lensboard.... The picture (from the LF Toyo) is OK anyway! Must be more carefull next time, that Schneider SA is great really. Would hate to see it going down.

[Ron Mc]

Only a few times have I been told to get a digital camera. Usually the questions center around the age of the camera and why do I use it. I usually have my weimarner with me and there are more questions about her instead of what I'm doing.

As for me I work daily in the digital world of printing prepress and when its time for my images I prefer working with film. When the image needs to be digital its no biggie to scan it.

Ron

[John_4185]

Thread is running long.

Anagram of "I hate digital" : "ah, i get it - dali!"

Anagram of "Digital dream" : "A grim, hatted lie(d)"

'nite

[Matthew Jackson]

I haven't been doing LF for very long and I did wonder how people would react to seeing me using a strange looking wooden camera especially since I shoot a lot of "urban landscape" type photos in the city. So far not a single negative comment. Lots of people do come up to me and make comments but its usually commenting on how good the light is that evening or asking me if I know some other place they think might make a good photo etc. I think because I'm fairly young they assume I must be a student (there are three universities and a famous art school here in Glasgow so plenty of students around here) and lets face it folk can explain away pretty much any form of eccentric behaviour if they think "oh he must be an art student"....

I did have a slightly tense moment on Christmas Eve when I was taking a photo of Glasgow School of Art which is a famous art nouveau building and local landmark and this group of neds (that's a Scottish expression which is quite hard to translate into standard English - in England I guess people say "chavs" but for everyone else I guess it translates as being "the sort of young kids who are going to cause you trouble" came up to me and they were all swigging from beer cans and surrounded me in a group and I was expecting either a sarcastic comment or else that they were going to try and beat the c**p out of me and run off with my kit but they just stood there absolutely fascinated and after a while one of them patted me on the back and said " 'ats a pure cool camera by the way pal" and they all drunkenly staggered off in the other direction. So there you go buy a LF camera and you can make friends with all kinds of people...

What does affect people's attitude to you I find is simply having a tripod. If you have a big impressive tripod people immediately assume you must really know what you're doing no matter what camera you have on top. When I set up my tripod I often get people coming over to see what I'm doing. I also think that nowadays when you read about photographers getting hassled by the police and security guards more because of the scares over terrorism and paedophilia that people seem less suspicious if you have a tripod because they assume you must be professional and therefore have a legitimate reason for doing whatever it is you're doing.

[Rafe B]

I'm relatively new to LF. I don't use it in public all that much, where people can approach while I'm working. I have one young co-worker who's seen the rig and calls it a Charlie-Chaplin camera -- which makes me smile.

I use film cameras of (nearly) all formats and some digital. They all have their place. LF has a certain Zen to it, though not everyone can appreciate it. This reveals a certain ignorance, though to me that's not really surprising. LF is a rarity, and folks often respond negatively to things they don't understand.

I could give you a long tirade about "the arrogance of youth" but not today.

[Rakesh Malik]

I'm so new to LF that I don't even have an LF camera yet! (It's on order -- an Ebony. Tax refunds are good for something! ;))

The main thing I have against digital is computers. More precisely, it's that I already spend too much time with them, since I write software for a living. :)

[Emre Yildirim]

I could give you a long tirade about "the arrogance of youth" but not today.

You can't blame it entirely on young people though. For example, I'm 22 and I've been shooting LF on and off since I was 18. I just recently made a complete switch, sold all my 35mm and medium format cameras and now own 3 LF cameras (plus a Canon 20D for snapshots). I know a couple of other people around my age who are familiar with large format. Sure, there are plenty of young people who have no clue about anything beyond their digital cameras, but that doesn't mean everyone is like that.

I think as 35mm digital evolves, there will be more interest in large format cameras, since people get more and more obsessed with the megapixel hype.

[Michael Ervolina]

I have only had positive comments. While I am somewhat new to LF, I have been shooting MF for a while. Once while walking around NYC with my Hasselblad, a group of young people commented on my "antique" camera, I just smiled and said thanks.

But the most amusing comment was when I first got my LF camera and went to a public park where they had just put up those life like statues. Since I didn't have a focusing cloth, I put my jacket over the camera. Several people were suprised when I moved, seems that they thought I was just an exhibit.

For what its worth, I am not anti-digital, I am just pro-film.

[JD Rose]

Hello,

I don't think Mr. Alex hates digital, I think Mr. Alex is disappointed by uneducated digital users giving him grief for shooting his "old fashioned" camera.

They just fail to understand that 1/3" cannot match 4x5" or better.

Perhaps we should remind the digital users that their 1/3" sensor is the same size as their grandma's 110 film cartidge. Nah, that would be lost on them too.

--- JDR

[Wayne]

When I took my 8x10 up to photograph a couple of friends of mine, their jaws dropped and they called it a "table saw". They were genuinely interested in it, but probably more as an oddity than anything else. They were not insulting though, I thought the table saw comment was pretty funny. They were very impressed when they looked through the ground glass. But I'm sure they think I'm crazy for using a camera that costs money to operate.

[Xela]

the worst thing about digital cameras is that they will eventually render all other cameras. getting photos printed will either not happen or cost a bomb to do. I hate what they've done and eventually will do. Bastards.

[David Luttmann]

"the worst thing about digital cameras is that they will eventually render all other cameras. getting photos printed will either not happen or cost a bomb to do. I hate what they've done and eventually will do. Bastards."

Anyone have a universal translator?

[tim atherton]

I tried Babelfish:

the more defective thing approximately the digital photographic machines is than finally they will make all the other machines photographic which obtain the photographs printed want not to seem or not cost a bomb to make. Hatred what they did and finally will make. Bastard.

[Xela]

I'm just talkchas in me corkcoian accent boi.
Xela Ireland

[Gary Tarbert]

I don't hate digital as such , But they just don't have the same mojo as LF .Cheers Gary

[Two23]

I very rarely hear anything negative. Once, I was at gathering of railfan photographers. One guy had a new $2,500 camera he was showing off with just a bit. When I pulled out my Chamonix 045n and set it up, the attention paid to him was suddenly zero. :)


Kent in SD

[Roger Cole]

Wow, holy necroposting Batman! Check out the dates on the earlier posts - seven years ago.

I've heard no snide comments or such, but I do get puzzlement that I bother with film. One guy, friend actually, asked, "you just never found a digital sensor that did it for you?" "I just like using film." He ended up giving me an autofocus Kodak Medalist slide projector and three trays that he no longer uses for lectures at his Masonic lodge since converting all the slides for those lectures to digital. Shipped it to me from Indiana, too - we met at a local event (non photographic) he had traveled down for.

[paulr]

I hate eggplant.

[John Kasaian]

I hate eggplant.

I love eggplant but of course that depends on how the eggplant is prepared, LOL!

[rdenney]

I hate eggplant.

Me, too.

Rick "particularly when it's seven years old" Denney

[Brian Ellis]

. . . . The thing is when other photographers clutching their plastic fantastic hi-tech digi cameras see me using a huge wood view camera on a mother of a tripod they ask why bother and think I'm a bit mad. Has anyone else had a negative reaction, friends laughing, or people thinking your just plain nuts for not keeping with the times and turning into a digital fanatic

No. But if they did I'd first consider the possibility that it's my photographs they're laughing at, not my equipment.

Looks like the laughter became too much for C.A., he apparently hasn't been here since 2006. I wonder if he turned into a digital fanatic.

[E. von Hoegh]

Hate requires too much effort, by far. I just ignore digital.

[welly]

Holy ancient thread revival batman!

Never had anything but positive responses and reactions when out with my 4x5 wooden camera. Lots of smiles from very attractive girls, numerous "what a beautiful camera" comments. Planning on taking my 8x10 out his weekend. Will be interesting to see how Sydney copes with that.

[E. von Hoegh]

Holy ancient thread revival batman!

Never had anything but positive responses and reactions when out with my 4x5 wooden camera. Lots of smiles from very attractive girls, numerous "what a beautiful camera" comments. Planning on taking my 8x10 out his weekend. Will be interesting to see how Sydney copes with that.

A Deardorff V8 is a pretty good chick magnet.

[Sal Santamaura]

Wow, holy necroposting Batman! Check out the dates on the earlier posts - seven years ago...


Holy ancient thread revival batman!...I'll not step into the quagmire that is this thread's topic, but can someone please explain to me why a poster who does wish to address it draws astonished responses for using an existing thread rather than starting a new one? Redundant threads clutter the archive and make searching more difficult. Please don't take this as a recommendation to search for or further discuss digital vs. analog/chemical/whatever photography. :D

[mandoman7]

My experience is the same. Not criticism but rather a lot of interest, particularly with the 8x10. And that goes to before the advent of digital. I don't mind chatting with people, but I'm not fond of distractions while I'm trying to concentrate on focus and exposure questions. It has to be a good shot for me to set up in public these days, although I can ignore what's going on around me pretty well if I have to :)

The OP is long gone of course, but regarding digital users, the vast majority can barely manage to download and/or print their images. Hardly a group to be intimidated by, but maybe its more about the locations that are being chosen to shoot at if you're getting frustrated with onlookers.

[cyrus]

I've never run into people in developed, Western countries making fun of my old-time film cameras but I have often run into that sentiment in less-developed, Eastern countries... for whom owning the "latest" digital thingymajig is a status symbol in a rapidly developing economy where people are in a rush to declare their "arrival", and so obviously the only reason you'd stick to clunky film cameras is poverty and a lack of good taste (in their minds.)

[John Kasaian]

A Deardorff V8 is a pretty good chick magnet.
Wise words!

[Drew Wiley]

I just took a day hike up Virginia Lakes with the Sinar. Got up early and by mid-morning was above timberline, where several horse parties caught up to me. Each of the wranglers was actually a cute young co-ed, who in succession stopped thier mule train to chat about
the camera and shot. The last train was a horse party carrying some wealthy-looking Chinese tourists with marginal English skills. But one of them, a business-man-looking type,
asked, "Film?" ... (Yes)..."Nice!". Then a really fit little lady, maybe 75, with a little daypack
stopped and chatted a long time, and remarked how much her pro-photog-wannabee
grandson hated his brand new 3K digital Nikon because it is so hard to focus; then reminisced about her 6X6 Rollei when she was that age... Not really a crowded trail that
day, and still a few snow patches, but the Sinar and Ries was still a conversation piece.

[Roger Cole]

I'll not step into the quagmire that is this thread's topic, but can someone please explain to me why a poster who does wish to address it draws astonished responses for using an existing thread rather than starting a new one? Redundant threads clutter the archive and make searching more difficult. Please don't take this as a recommendation to search for or further discuss digital vs. analog/chemical/whatever photography. :D

Because someone either searched and turned this thread up (which is hard to imagine - I can't seem to find a thing since the last upgrade, at least not if it's older than that - but some people seem to manage it) and then replied without saying anything about how old it was (I didn't notice until a reference to an old DSRL being current made me look) or else they were just going back reading so far they read all the way back to 2006. Either seems pretty unlikely to me, but I don't mind, I'm just surprised. :)

[NicolasArg]

I had a lot of great experiences with people approaching me to ask questions about my 4x5 cameras. To my surprise, the wooden 4x5 is a real "chick magnet" and a general great conversational item while the metal 4x5 is usually viewed as some kind of really pro and expensive digital video cam :)

[biedron]

the wooden 4x5 is a real "chick magnet"

Crap! All my 4x5's are metal...

[Sal Santamaura]

Because someone either searched and turned this thread up (which is hard to imagine - I can't seem to find a thing since the last upgrade, at least not if it's older than that - but some people seem to manage it)...Google is your friend. Attached is the way someone who "hates digital" would look for relevant discussion on the LF forum. This thread is the first result (showing its 2005 date) when one enters those terms and performs the search.


...then replied without saying anything about how old it was (I didn't notice until a reference to an old DSRL being current made me look) or else they were just going back reading so far they read all the way back to 2006. Either seems pretty unlikely to me, but I don't mind, I'm just surprised...Since the latest upgrade to this version of vBulletin, regardless of whether one looks at the Unified View, individual category listings or a customized X-day search, thread titles presented display the OP's user name and date the thread was started.

Neither extensively reading the archive nor failing to redundantly point out a thread's age should be surprising. This database functions as a searchable archive, not a chatroom.

[Steve Smith]

I love eggplant

I have chickens to provide me with eggs. I don't think they grow on plants!


Steve.

[Alan Gales]

Crap! All my 4x5's are metal...

Don't worry, your camera is still a chick magnet. You will just get the hard drinking, cigarette smoking, tattooed crowd like Frank shoots! :)

[Drew Wiley]

Steve - eggplant only comes from purple chickens.

[Frank Petronio]

76527

They're badass alright.

[Alan Gales]

She's a cutie! Is that your granddaughter?

[Frank Petronio]

Man you are just full of compliments today Alan!

My daughter.

You could always get a job speechwriting for Joe Biden ;-p

[Graybeard]

A Deardorff V8 is a pretty good chick magnet.

A mixed blessing when the chicks are the same vintage as the Deardorff.

[Alan Gales]

Man you are just full of compliments today Alan!

My daughter.

You could always get a job speechwriting for Joe Biden ;-p

Sorry Frank, I'm only 50 and I have an 18 year old granddaughter. Your daughter is beautiful!

How much does Joe pay? :cool:

[knjkrock]

I once had a patient comment to me regarding the local health department offering of free digital prostate checks and complain to me regarding our lack of the latest technology. He even produced the article from the newspaper. With every effort to preserve his dignity I explained to him what a digital exam was in this case. He failed to see the humor. I am still laughing ten years later.

Ken

[Alan Gales]

Ken, that is just too funny!!! :D

[Roger Cole]

Google is your friend. Attached is the way someone who "hates digital" would look for relevant discussion on the LF forum. This thread is the first result (showing its 2005 date) when one enters those terms and performs the search.

Since the latest upgrade to this version of vBulletin, regardless of whether one looks at the Unified View, individual category listings or a customized X-day search, thread titles presented display the OP's user name and date the thread was started.

Neither extensively reading the archive nor failing to redundantly point out a thread's age should be surprising. This database functions as a searchable archive, not a chatroom.

Geez Sal, take a chill pill or something. I didn't mean that it was some hideous infraction, I'm just always surprised when someone responds to a years old thread without saying anything about the age of it. Yes, the date is there, and yes I, and from what I read almost everyone else, usually completely overlooks it for quite some time, that's all.

And a "searchable archive" is just one of its functions. I always see forums as a social medium as well. I participate in several. If you don't, that's ok. We don't have to have the same views.

To the topic, the increase of digital since 2005/6 has been substantial so I would expect this to have further changed outlooks.

[Leigh]

How can you hate a tool?

If the tool is inappropriate or inadequate to the task, you use a different tool.
If the quality is insufficient, you use a better quality tool.

But in neither case is there any basis for hatred. It's simply a question of choosing the right tool to do what you want.

I shoot LF (both 4x5 and 8x10). Saturday morning I went out to shoot the damage wrought by the freak storm.
My tool of choice was a Nikon D300S, with which I took ~100 shots over a 30-mile radius in about four hours.
That would have been impossible using the LF gear, which sat quietly in the office.

- Leigh

[Sal Santamaura]

Geez Sal, take a chill pill or something...Since dropping much below 98.6 degrees F isn't a good idea, I'll pass on the pill. :cool:


...I'm just always surprised when someone responds to a years old thread without saying anything about the age of it. Yes, the date is there, and yes I, and from what I read almost everyone else, usually completely overlooks it for quite some time...My post quoted you and welly, probably just two of many readers who didn't notice this thread's age. That they lack the situational awareness to absorb readily available information isn't surprising. Gary Tarbert had no reason to redundantly point out when the original post was made. It still makes sense to highlight this situation so users become familiar with the vBulletin features.


...And a "searchable archive" is just one of its functions. I always see forums as a social medium as well. I participate in several. If you don't, that's ok. We don't have to have the same views...What I see forums as isn't as important as what Phillip Greenspun sees them as. He was the originator of LUSENET, from whence this forum sprang. Phillip clearly stated his intention that forums be searchable archives, not chat rooms.

[Leigh]

Phillip clearly stated his intention that forums be searchable archives, not chat rooms.
That comment makes no sense.

If a forum is not a chat room...

Whence cometh the posts containing the information?

What mechanism creates the content that can be searched in the future?

Nobody cares, or should care, what Phillip Greenspun thinks. He doesn't own this site nor contribute here.

Henry Ford thought all cars should be black.

The owners of the original movie patents thought no movie should last more than 30 minutes.

The greatest minds of the time thought the earth was flat.

- Leigh

[Roger Cole]

That comment makes no sense.

If a forum is not a chat room...

Whence cometh the posts containing the information?

What mechanism creates the content that can be searched in the future?

Nobody cares, or should care, what Phillip Greenspun thinks. He doesn't own this site nor contribute here.

- Leigh

'I don't care what Phillip thinks" was the start of the post I deleted (with some additional true-to-myself but un-necessarily snarky additions.) Glad to know someone agrees.

It isn't a chat room because a chat room is, by definition, in real time. But a forum does represent a place to meet other people interested in a topic online and discuss that topic. That it's searchable is a good and useful thing but it does not make it a "database" nor obviate its use as social media.

[Frank Petronio]

The Internet has evolved and forums like this one have been obsolete for years. Why do you think the average age is well over the AARP minimum? The search function works for crap and Google never indexes this right because of the software and mostly because people are too dumb or lazy to properly title their posts.

Oh I think I will go look at a thread labelled, "Dumb Question", got nothing but time to kill....

[Roger Cole]

Obsolete? Not judging by the ones I participate in. They have their pluses and minuses, like anything else.

[Mike Anderson]

The Internet has evolved and forums like this one have been obsolete for years. Why do you think the average age is well over the AARP minimum? The search function works for crap and Google never indexes this right because of the software and mostly because people are too dumb or lazy to properly title their posts.

Lots of young people use forums of this format, complete with the dysfunctional search feature. (It's funny on some forums the "locals" go through the roof when someone resurrects an old thread.)

[E. von Hoegh]

10 pages. OK, it's time....

Hitler would hate digital, too.

[rdenney]

10 pages. OK, it's time....

Hitler would hate digital, too.

You're missing the point of Godwin's Law. The referencing post has to be in the form of an ad hominem attack, such as:

"You hate digital? What are you, some kind of film nazi?"

or

"You are like Hitler. He would have hated digital, too."

Furthermore, intentional application of Godwin's Law is a canonical exception to the law. It has to be a natural escalation of hostility, not a purposefully attached anchor with which to sink the thread.


Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called "Nazi Clause" is ineffectual.

And that word "ineffectual" brings up a final point. The point is not that Godwin's Law is a rule that enforces the cessation of a thread after nazis are invoked. It's an effect, suggesting that the invokation of nazis means that there is nothing left to add to the thread. And, of course, that is usually true right from the start.

Rick "waiting for the only appropriate response" Denney

[E. von Hoegh]

What is "the only approprite response"? After 10 pages and no Nazis or Hitlers, I thought it was time; "I hate digital" is a rather pointless statement, and in my pre-Hitler post I pointed out that hate takes far too much effort. "Hate" is a much misused word, I wonder if many who use it even comprehend it's meaning.

[rdenney]

What is "the only approprite response"?

Okay, since you asked: "What are you, some kind of Godwin's Law nazi?"

Rick "respectfully submitted" Denney

[E. von Hoegh]

Hah!! I wish I had thought of that!

[RichardSperry]

The 2005+ Doctor Who series is available on Netflix now.

Drs Nine and Ten do not compare to Dr Four.

But their companion, Billie Piper as Rose, has been upgraded from the originals.

[buggz]

I miss the Sarah Jane days...


The 2005+ Doctor Who series is available on Netflix now.

Drs Nine and Ten do not compare to Dr Four.

But their companion, Billie Piper as Rose, has been upgraded from the originals.

[Jody_S]

"Hate" is a much misused word, I wonder if many who use it even comprehend it's meaning.

You know who understood the meaning of the word "hate"? The Nazis.

[Leigh]

Hooray! This thread has earned its place in history. Someone invoked the Nazis.

That lends a credence unsurpassed by any other attribute imaginable. What horse$hit!

- Leigh

[David Higgs]

Amy pond

[rdenney]

Hooray! This thread has earned its place in history. Someone invoked the Nazis.

And he did it without the apparent intent to halt the thread, and also without using it in ad hominem. Points for style!

Rick "whose pet-peeve word of the moment is 'hater'" Denney

[E. von Hoegh]

Hate the hater, not the hate.(winking smiley)

[Gary Tarbert]

If my middle finger was raised would that be digital?

[E. von Hoegh]

If my middle finger was raised would that be digital? Of course.

[Scotty230358]

Most people I encounter are curious. Some even say "wow how cool is that". On the rare occasions the conversation turns to relative performace I usually say that my single sheet of film is measured in terra pixels. An exageration and technically quite incorrect but it tends to quieten the "mines got xx megapixels" brigade.

[Ken Lee]

The Internet has evolved and forums like this one have been obsolete for years. Why do you think the average age is well over the AARP minimum? The search function works for crap and Google never indexes this right because of the software and mostly because people are too dumb or lazy to properly title their posts.

Can you recommend a non-obsolete forum or two ?

[Cletus]

Yes, I know this thread is in decline and this "quote" is not only slightly off topic (but not really) and many of you have probably already seen it...here it is anyway. From an Amazon review of the Nikon F6 by R. Sawyer:

One Star out of Five - "Camera will not work with CompactFlash or other digital media cards. You must buy a cartridge of tape, which allows for just 24 shots. No LCD screen for image playback.
Extremely frustrated and returned item."

Geez, I laughed myself to tears at the "tape" comment! Such concise commentary on modern "digital" culture! I just wanted to share this for those who haven't seen it.

Oh, and I too usually just get curious, polite comments when out with the LF camera. And as others have mentioned, a peek under the dark cloth at the ground glass usually gets a smile and a nod of 'understanding'. I just ignore the ignorant comments...no point trying to explain something like LF to a moron.

Cletus

[E. von Hoegh]

"Camera will not work with CompactFlash or other digital media cards. You must buy a cartridge of tape, which allows for just 24 shots. No LCD screen for image playback.
Extremely frustrated and returned item."


That is absolutely priceles!

[Leigh]

It just shows how absolutely worthless online reviews are.

- Leigh

[E. von Hoegh]

It just shows how absolutely worthless online reviews are.

- Leigh

And reviewers.

[Mike Anderson]

Yes, I know this thread is in decline and this "quote" is not only slightly off topic (but not really) and many of you have probably already seen it...here it is anyway. From an Amazon review of the Nikon F6 by R. Sawyer:

One Star out of Five - "Camera will not work with CompactFlash or other digital media cards. You must buy a cartridge of tape, which allows for just 24 shots. No LCD screen for image playback.
Extremely frustrated and returned item."

Hah the review is still there:

http://www.amazon.com/review/R3TTDN6Q9ARZXT/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R3TTDN6Q9ARZXT

[Mike Anderson]

It just shows how absolutely worthless online reviews are.

- Leigh

It's not worthless, it's good to warn potential buyers that you need to get the tape cartridges to work with that camera. ;)

[E. von Hoegh]

Hah the review is still there:

http://www.amazon.com/review/R3TTDN6Q9ARZXT/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R3TTDN6Q9ARZXT

Did you see the original reviewers reply/ update?

"UPDATE: After extensive research into "film photography" over the last two days, I now understand a fair amount about the subject. As a result, I have no plans to reorder the F6, but I do have a shipment of film canisters (Kodak) coming so that I can test them in my brand new Digital Nikon SLR. I think it is remarkable how old technology like filmstrips can produce resolution greater than my CompactFlash cards. Seeing will be believing."

[Cletus]

The guy who wrote that was kidding. It was meant to funny, but certainly wasn't immediately obvious to everyone. There were a lot of comments (on the Amazon review) from other users calling this guy and idiot and worse. There were a scant few - just a few, has it gotten this bad? - who could appreciate a little satire and sarcasm on such hallowed ground.

Anyway, I thought it was funny and wanted to pass it on...

[Roger Cole]

Can you prove that? It would not surprise me in the least if someone really is that stupid. There's nothing to indicate he's making a joke, other than the fact it's so stupid most of us think it must be one.

[Leigh]

A product review page is not Comedy Central.

If he fails to understand that, he really is as stupid as he appears.

- Leigh

[Mike Anderson]

The guy who wrote that was kidding. It was meant to funny, but certainly wasn't immediately obvious to everyone. There were a lot of comments (on the Amazon review) from other users calling this guy and idiot and worse. There were a scant few - just a few, has it gotten this bad? - who could appreciate a little satire and sarcasm on such hallowed ground.

Anyway, I thought it was funny and wanted to pass it on...

I didn't think it was a joke. When it first became famous I poked around the guy's other reviews and my take was that he was serious. Not sure, that was just my guess.

And don't you have to buy it from Amazon in order to review it? Seems like a lot of trouble for a joke.

[SpeedGraphicMan]

I was in the midst of a group of local photojournalists and their latest wiz-bang Canons.
I brought up the fact that I still shoot film, upon which they started to chide me a little...

Then I pulled out my Speed Graphic with my self built flash handle...
(I have several modified speedlights mounted on it, lets me shoot an ISO 100 at about f16 at 15 feet).

Jaws dropped, and they all wanted to hold and try it out, I even used their cameras to take their pictures holding my camera!

[John Flavell]

i've been shooting photojournalism for 35 years, in both incantations, and I'm a bit surprised to read the moaning and groaning on this subject from large format photographers. Never, EVER, has anyone derided me or even teased when the Calumet 4x5 came out. In fact, in Kentucky or places like Cape Cod, it becomes a talking point about photography and why one method is used over another at a particular time and place.

The problem I have is not digital amateurs, or pros, making derogatory comments. Rather, they want to know more about it. They want to look through it. They have questions. While trying to answer I usually lose the light.

In the old days, we photojournalists had to carry a chemical dump in our cars, find a room we could mask off to print, and then plead ignorance when we had to disassemble someone's phone to file pictures with an 85-pound transmitter. Before deadline. Just three very good reasons to go to digital.

I also shoot the large format for the beauty of the process. It slows me down. It forces me to see better. I makes me patient. I learn to edit while I shoot, which helps on the journalism side.

This nonsensical complaint about one side putting down the other over method just tells me you guys are hanging out in the wrong places with the wrong people.

[SpeedGraphicMan]

This nonsensical complaint about one side putting down the other over method just tells me you guys are hanging out in the wrong places with the wrong people.

If you read my story properly, you will notice I said they only chided me because I said I still shot film...
That stopped when I pulled out my SpeedGraphic!

This only reaffirms what you said!

[John Flavell]

Speed, I should have made clear my comments were not a reaction to what you wrote. And yes, your comments do affirm my thoughts.

[SpeedGraphicMan]

Speed, I should have made clear my comments were not a reaction to what you wrote. And yes, your comments do affirm my thoughts.

That's fine, I wasn't chewing you out or anything like that...
I am sorry if it sounded mean...

[Andrew O'Neill]

Seven years have passed since I typed this...


I always got mixed comments. Most people were always quite impressed when they saw my 8x10 all set up. The negative comments usually came from teens and twenty-something people. I heard "haven't you heard of digital yet?" so many times from them. But they don't know. They don't even know that there is such a thing as LF photography. I teach digital photography in my graphics class to high school students. I ALWAYS brought in my 8x10, lenses, holders and a few negatives for them to look at (this was before I had everything ripped off...I still haven't replaced anything...I've kept my sanity by printing negatives that have never seen the light). My biggest challenge with these kids is getting them out of the "I'll fix it in photoshop" mindset. So, I can't wait until I've replaced my gear and can get out there again, taking pictures and educating the public!



I'm happy to say that our highschool darkroom course is stronger than ever and we've added a hybrid component which I find has really enhances the kids work. Digital is a great teaching tool too! For my own personal work, I've learnt how to use digital negatives. Film and digital... love it!

Back into the darkroom to expose a carbon print!

andy

[SpeedGraphicMan]

Film and digital... love it!


That is right! Why shouldn't we have the best of both worlds?

I get so tired of the constant comparisons everywhere... Film is better than digital... Digital is better than film...

Can't we just accept both for what they are!
Hybrid work is nice, traditional printing is nice also.

Each are different, lets celebrate our artistic diversity instead of creating division!

[TheDeardorffGuy]

I can work between the two with ease. Do people stare at my Deardorffs? Sure. I photograph at tractor shows. There are LOTS of old things at these shows including people!! This year when I was at my tent I hung a sign on my camera. It said "Not an old camera. Built in 1987. Not a replica It's just a big camera. And it can take a better picture than your camera" That worked fine till I woke up from an after lunch nap only to see a 5x7 Linhof on a tripod sitting next to my V8 and its owner (a friend of mine) in his folding chair. He wrote on my sign with an arrow pointing at his camera "This is an old german camera. It also takes better images than your whimpy digital camera. Dare me?"

[jose angel]

Gfdky`s post has been deleted, so I`m deleting my answer.
---
Wood and mechanized aluminum is always nicer to my taste than plastic and die cast alloys, but... does it really have something to do with photography? What about about brass vs. bronze?
I see it use to be one of the most used arguments "against"...

[meirronaldi]

Recently I was at a national cemetary in St. Louis shooting with my Sinar 4x5. After working in 103F heat for nearly an hour to compose the shot, take test exposures and be just ready to put in real film for the shot I wanted two Veterans Administation police officers drove up in thier big Federal Government SUV. As soon as they pulled up they rolled down the windows of their icy cold car and commented "Boy you don't see one of those cameras every day!" After chatting with me for a second and commenting that I looke hot and that this looked like a lot of work, they told me that if I was shooting my none tripod DSLR cameras I could shoot as much as I liked but that I would need written permission from the cemetary manager to set up a tripod. Since I did not have written permission they were going to have to ask me to leave. Then they drove off. I took two E100G and 2 BW Tmax exposures, packed up my gear and called it a day.