Color Processing

[Two23]

Over the past month I've started to think that processing color film isn't as hard as I previously thought. For over a year now I've been processing b&w film and dry plates with no problem, and since last August I've shot a lot of wet plate (4x5, 5x7 , 8x10.). So, maybe color film isn't so hard after all? I will start with 4x5--don't want to mess with roll film. I have both the SP-445 and SP-810. First I need to decide if I want E6 or C-41. E6 is easier to scan--don't have to mess with the orange mask. Downside is the final bleach stains like a sonnabitch. C41 has more dynamic range and is more forgiving. All in all I'm thinking E6 maybe. I could fill my kitchen sink with correct temp water or use a medium sized plastic tub--that might be safer to avoid stains. The sous vide heater I read about on the other thread looks like a good option for controlling temperature. Not sure what processing kit to get, there are several. I suppose the tetenal. I'll need a kit as I've not done color before. They say they can do x8 rolls. I seem to remember that one 35mm roll equals one 4x5 sheet? Looks like all the small kits are out of stock at the moment anyway. I guess while I was out driving hundreds of miles taking photos a bunch of people were stuck at home and ordered stuff out of boredom. (I wouldn't trade places.:D ) I can wait until the kits are back in stock. Not sure how much color film I will shoot but maybe some. Looking at prices again I think I will rule out shooting 8x10 color.:eek: And, 5x7 color has sort of ruled itself out, I guess. I love using my little Chamonix 4x5 and have a great selection of lenses for it so that makes shooting 4x5 even easier.


Kent in SD

[Dugan]

1 roll 35mm = 1 8x10", IIRC

[Roger Thoms]

I just started doing C41, in my kitchen with the SP-8x10. I bought the Cinestill liquid C41 kit to get started, mainly because it was in stock locally and I could get it the delivered next day. I also have a Tetenal E6 kit to try next. In research the C41 and Kodak chemistry with the separate bleach and fix it gets a little confusing. I found this website very helpful. https://www.kabbottphoto.com/c-41-with-kodak-flexicolor-at-home/ I just ordered Kodak C41 chemistry from Unique Photo. I’m going with the Kodak for couple because of the separate bleach / fix, the fact the the developer will be used one shot. As far as the E6 goes I have to research that more, but initially will start with the Tetenal kit. I may end up using the Fuji Hunt kit.

This whole adventure started because I got some 8x10 film holders that where loaded with Portra dating from 2010 and 118 sheets of 8x10 expired Astia. I didn’t want to start sending expired film of unknown history out to a lab at $10 a sheet plus postage. So far I’ve developed 9 sheet of 8x10 and all the negatives look good. I am very impressed with with the SP-8x10, it’s extremely well thought out.

So yes go for it.

Roger

[LabRat]

I second C-41... Two bath, slight fudge factor, and results that will exceed lab processing you have seen...

First developer is almost a B/W developer that brings up the silver image, then the bleach that removes the silver, but the dye behind the silver remains in proportion to the amount of silver that was there (x 3 layers)... Not rocket science, but temp, dev time, and dev exhaustion have to be monitored...

For the water bath, not too complicated once you get the hang of it... First, you standardize a temp that is convenient for you and your set-up and consistently use that temp (as that will be your standard color balance there... There's also the uphill/downhill method to warm or cool your water where you get it slightly over/under the chosen temp and if the room temp is warmer or cooler, you allow the bath (with chem bottles in it) to find the perfect temp in not too long wait... Usually the bath temp changes slowly, so you have a window where the temp is OK for your 3 3/4 (?) dev time... There are easier ways with mixing valves etc, but this also works with practice...

Once you scan or print from a neg a few times, not hard to get into the color balanced zone...

Not hard to do...

Steve K

[Roger Thoms]

To add to what LabRat said. My target temp was 102° so I started with 103° this was based on the info here. https://shop.stearmanpress.com/blogs/news/thermal-profile-of-the-sp-8x10 . That and the fact that our house is fairly cool, I'm in an San Francisco after all. That was for the SP-8x10 tray which I didn’t try and put in a water bath. I kept all the chemistry in a Jobo tempering bath during the development session.

Roger

[Duolab123]

I just started doing C41, in my kitchen with the SP-8x10. I bought the Cinestill liquid C41 kit to get started, mainly because it was in stock locally and I could get it the delivered next day. I also have a Tetenal E6 kit to try next. In research the C41 and Kodak chemistry with the separate bleach and fix it gets a little confusing. I found this website very helpful. https://www.kabbottphoto.com/c-41-with-kodak-flexicolor-at-home/ I just ordered Kodak C41 chemistry from Unique Photo. I’m going with the Kodak for couple because of the separate bleach / fix, the fact the the developer will be used one shot. As far as the E6 goes I have to research that more, but initially will start with the Tetenal kit. I may end up using the Fuji Hunt kit.

This whole adventure started because I got some 8x10 film holders that where loaded with Portra dating from 2010 and 118 sheets of 8x10 expired Astia. I didn’t want to start sending expired film of unknown history out to a lab at $10 a sheet plus postage. So far I’ve developed 9 sheet of 8x10 and all the negatives look good. I am very impressed with with the SP-8x10, it’s extremely well thought out.

So yes go for it.

Roger

For E6 I've used them all. The old Kodak 5L kit, the Freestyle Fuji Pro6 5L kit and the Tetenal kit that Freestyle sells. I've gotten great results from all of these. I think that the Tetenal kits work great as long as you don't overuse them.
My current project is I've bought bulk quantities of the Fuji Pro6 chemistry made in the US. This is slightly different from the Pro6 5L Fuji kit that Freestyle sells.
The US still uses a conditioner and a final rinse with a bit of formalin. The Freestyle version is made in the Netherlands and uses "pre-bleach" and a different final rinse that uses Miconazole as a biocide to preserve the film.
Long story short, I get great results with them all. Astia in 8x10 sounds pretty great.
By far the most critical step is 1st developer time and temperature, the rest is not that touchy.
Right now I've got enough E6 chemistry to float a boat. Gives me something to do during the lock down.
Best Regards Mike

[m00dawg]

I just started doing C41, in my kitchen with the SP-8x10. I bought the Cinestill liquid C41 kit to get started, mainly because it was in stock locally and I could get it the delivered next day. I also have a Tetenal E6 kit to try next. In research the C41 and Kodak chemistry with the separate bleach and fix it gets a little confusing. I found this website very helpful. https://www.kabbottphoto.com/c-41-with-kodak-flexicolor-at-home/ I just ordered Kodak C41 chemistry from Unique Photo. I’m going with the Kodak for couple because of the separate bleach / fix, the fact the the developer will be used one shot. As far as the E6 goes I have to research that more, but initially will start with the Tetenal kit. I may end up using the Fuji Hunt kit.

Can I ask about the Kodak chemicals. I too am looking at a sort of "build my own kit" from Unique Photo using Kodak Flexicolor. I'm using a JOBO tank but with my own custom rotary - so no fancy lifting heads or anything like that, but a rotary process I can control well enough (for BW I use a 45RPM motor, for color I was using a 78RPM but might prefer to stick with 45 since I currently control speeds by using separate motors). I'm using an Arduino/ATiny85 microcontroller for direction changes and such (which is overbuilt :P) but it works. See https://gitlab.com/m00dawg/devdawg/-/tree/master/rotary85 for more info on that.

Anyways, I too am wanting to go to a separate bleach/fix after being spoiled by QWD's ECN2 kit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the bleach and fixer last A LOT longer correct? The bleach I can even re-generate? They're also flexible-ish on time (and also the most expensive items to order from UQ due to shipping). That means I can easily just buy more developer as needed?

What are you using for storage of all these chemicals? I use a 5L water bag for my XTOL stock (I do XTOL replenishment) so I'm used to messing with bags...albeit not like 3 bags with crazy color chemicals :)

Finally, do you have a suggested list of products to get from UQ? I get confused by the start vs replenisher (or the combo start/replenisher) and the instructions are a bit light.

Oh finally finally (sorry!) are you using Final Rinse or a formaldehyde stabilizer?

[Colin D]

E6 breathing to life in front of you out of the can is categorically worth the stains.

[Roger Thoms]

Can I ask about the Kodak chemicals. I too am looking at a sort of "build my own kit" from Unique Photo using Kodak Flexicolor. I'm using a JOBO tank but with my own custom rotary - so no fancy lifting heads or anything like that, but a rotary process I can control well enough (for BW I use a 45RPM motor, for color I was using a 78RPM but might prefer to stick with 45 since I currently control speeds by using separate motors). I'm using an Arduino/ATiny85 microcontroller for direction changes and such (which is overbuilt :P) but it works. See https://gitlab.com/m00dawg/devdawg/-/tree/master/rotary85 for more info on that.

Anyways, I too am wanting to go to a separate bleach/fix after being spoiled by QWD's ECN2 kit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the bleach and fixer last A LOT longer correct? The bleach I can even re-generate? They're also flexible-ish on time (and also the most expensive items to order from UQ due to shipping). That means I can easily just buy more developer as needed?

What are you using for storage of all these chemicals? I use a 5L water bag for my XTOL stock (I do XTOL replenishment) so I'm used to messing with bags...albeit not like 3 bags with crazy color chemicals :)

Finally, do you have a suggested list of products to get from UQ? I get confused by the start vs replenisher (or the combo start/replenisher) and the instructions are a bit light.

Oh finally finally (sorry!) are you using Final Rinse or a formaldehyde stabilizer?




First off, I'm totally new to color developing, so I'm just learning all this stuff myself. Yes Fix and especially the bleach have long shelf life’s. Also the developer-starter has good shelf life, it’s the developer-replenisher that has the short life once it’s mixed. Remember that you mix your developer-starter and developer-replenisher right before you process.

For storage I just ordered 32oz. glass bottles for everything.

As far as the list of chemistry I got that off of Karl Abbott's website that I linked to in my previous post. I encourage you to check out Karl's write up, it's pretty thorough and has a ton of links’s for all the chemistry and supplies plus links to a couple of Photrio threads and a bunch of Kodak publications.

I ordered the Kodak final rinse which I understand is fine for film manufactured after 2002. I also ordered some Formaldehyde to make my own stabilizer based on this post #1 here. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/the-definitive-word-i-hope-on-color-stabilzers.89149/

And finally here's an attachment showing what I ordered from Unique.

Roger

[Roger Thoms]

E6 breathing to life in front of you out of the can is categorically worth the stains.

I was unaware that E6 stains. Am I going to have issues with the kitchen sink in the house I rent? It's a porcelain enameled cast iron sink that’s under mounted with a ceramic tile counter. It would be a lot of work to replace.

Roger

[m00dawg]

Thank you so much Roger! That's very VERY helpful and yep I'll check out Karl's website!

[Two23]

I was unaware that E6 stains. Am I going to have issues with the kitchen sink in the house I rent? It's a porcelain enameled cast iron sink that’s under mounted with a ceramic tile counter. It would be a lot of work to replace.

Roger


Doing some more research, looks like the bleach/fix will stain like a sonna bitch. My plan is to use the lid from a large plastic storage tub (upside down) as my work area. I do that for wet plate chemicals and it works well. Will use a funnel to pour chemicals to avoid splatters. Will rinse things off in the sink but use LOTS of water and wipe down when I'm done. Wife is already on the war path about tiny silver nitrate stains (wet plate) so I need to take great care.


Kent in SD

[Roger Thoms]

Thanks for the heads up.

Roger

[LabRat]

If you use a basin or tray as a water bath, and some drips into it, it will be diluted and way easier to clean up...

Steve K

[m00dawg]

Curious as I've read some folks using the developer with replenishment though Z131 says not to do this for rotary processors. I assume it's because the rotary process aerates the developer too much. Using replenishment would help with the economics a bit though - maybe aside from the test strips (which are kinda expensive).

Given Z131's capacities, and some maths (including pricing and shipping from Unique Photo), I came up with a per-item price being:

35mm/36: $4.23
120: $6.34
4x5: $1.59

Still more economical than using a lab but quite a bit more than using a blix press kit, though with likely superior results. I do wish Kodak mentioned why replenishment isn't ideal so I didn't have to assume. I use replenishment with XTOL and, granted, much different beast, but get great results with it.

EDIT: Follow up, I noticed there's two C-41 fixer/replenisher options for Unique Photo. I don't know the differences but one is much cheaper and has a higher capacity than the other. EDIT2: Aha! The cheaper one is actually more expensive due to the high cost of shipping.

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak%2Dflexicolor%2Dc%2D41%2Dfixer%2Dand%2Dreplenisher%2Dfor%2Dcolor%2Dnegative%2Dfilm%2Dm%2D25%2Dg%2D1597392/_/searchString/flexicolor

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak%2Dc%2D41r%2Dflexicolor%2Dfixerandreplenisherto%2Dmake%2D10l%2D

EDIT3: Thought I would share my numbers so I made a Google Doc which folks can view to see how I'm calculating costs. Folks can copy the doc and plug in their own shipping price as well:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xLKi9kHwJbNFg1JY33MduuGpuRxQIcR4Erp2UvauXyc/edit#gid=1235198594

[roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau]

FWIW, I think C41 is far easier than B&W. I've been using a JOBO and that helps enormously (highly recommended). Haven't tried E6.... so I leave you there. Most of what I've done is 35mm and 120, but with recent move to make LF 4X5 my main squeeze, I've been B&W just fine and expect to do more C41 soon. I've used Tetenal, Unicolor and Arista C41 and prices vary - mostly dry vs. liquid, but I haven't noticed any differences in results per se.
Much has been made of substituting the original Kodak chems for BLIX used in these packages, but I've never tried that. I've bowed before the acknowledgement of those who have, but it's all one step at a time with me, and BLIX has looked fine enough for most C41. Perhaps REAL art photography merits the finer approach, but for everyday... Portra comes out fine. Give it a try. Don't be intimidated.

[Two23]

I have the Arista E6 kit coming from Freestyle.


Kent in SD

[Duolab123]

Curious as I've read some folks using the developer with replenishment though Z131 says not to do this for rotary processors. I assume it's because the rotary process aerates the developer too much. Using replenishment would help with the economics a bit though - maybe aside from the test strips (which are kinda expensive).

Given Z131's capacities, and some maths (including pricing and shipping from Unique Photo), I came up with a per-item price being:

35mm/36: $4.23
120: $6.34
4x5: $1.59

Still more economical than using a lab but quite a bit more than using a blix press kit, though with likely superior results. I do wish Kodak mentioned why replenishment isn't ideal so I didn't have to assume. I use replenishment with XTOL and, granted, much different beast, but get great results with it.

EDIT: Follow up, I noticed there's two C-41 fixer/replenisher options for Unique Photo. I don't know the differences but one is much cheaper and has a higher capacity than the other. EDIT2: Aha! The cheaper one is actually more expensive due to the high cost of shipping.

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak%2Dflexicolor%2Dc%2D41%2Dfixer%2Dand%2Dreplenisher%2Dfor%2Dcolor%2Dnegative%2Dfilm%2Dm%2D25%2Dg%2D1597392/_/searchString/flexicolor

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak%2Dc%2D41r%2Dflexicolor%2Dfixerandreplenisherto%2Dmake%2D10l%2D

EDIT3: Thought I would share my numbers so I made a Google Doc which folks can view to see how I'm calculating costs. Folks can copy the doc and plug in their own shipping price as well:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xLKi9kHwJbNFg1JY33MduuGpuRxQIcR4Erp2UvauXyc/edit#gid=1235198594

C41 Flexicolor Developer replenisher(5L of replenisher makes over 6L of developer) is 14 bucks, a bottle of starter will cost about the same, there's enough starter in that bottle it will last you for a decade. I use and toss the developer (Jobo) replenish the Flexicolor bleach (a 5 liter bottle will last forever 6-8 mL per roll replenishment ), use and toss the fixer. GET THE C-41RA Bleach

[Duolab123]

I have the Arista E6 kit coming from Freestyle.


Kent in SD

This will work great. Nothing more fun than processing slides.

[Two23]

Also just ordered a sous vide thing to keep temperature constant.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZK34881/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Kent in SD

[m00dawg]

C41 Flexicolor Developer replenisher(5L of replenisher makes over 6L of developer) is 14 bucks, a bottle of starter will cost about the same, there's enough starter in that bottle it will last you for a decade. I use and toss the developer (Jobo) replenish the Flexicolor bleach (a 5 liter bottle will last forever 6-8 mL per roll replenishment ), use and toss the fixer. GET THE C-41RA Bleach

How much developer do you tend to use? I noticed Z131 mentions using quite a bit of chemistry (e.g. 1L if dev'ing 2 rolls of 120). I was likely going to follow that since, at least for 4x5 sheets, it's around 500ml I believe and while I'm using a Jobo 2500 tank, I'm using my own custom motorized rotary contraption.

I have heard folks have used far less with good results (e.g. using the min suggested by JOBO, 270ml in the case of my 2500). There seems to be some wiggle room given the Z131 doc lists capacities in both 1 gallon and 1L but the gallon amounts are more than they should be compared to 1L. For instance, 2 rolls of 120 can be developed per 1L; or 9 rolls for 1 gallon. But 1 gallon is 3.8 liters and if using 3.8L, it should only be 7 rolls.

*shrug*

[Roger Thoms]

Also just ordered a sous vide thing to keep temperature constant.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZK34881/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Kent in SD

Just got on too, tested it out and it holds very consistent temperature. I ended up with an Anova, which was a bit random, just what I happened to find.

Roger