Misadventures in Jobo-land

[Scyg]

I need advice with film developing, and please don't make the answer "get an expert tank" - that doesn't even come near my budget at this point). I have a drum consisting of a 2830 bottom and 2870 top, a kosher combination for eight 5x7s as far as Jobo is concerned, in a CPA2 without a lift. I'm getting weird staining on the negatives:

203436

I first thought this was due to low chemical levels in the tank during development, particularly of fixer. Jobo calls for 200ml minimum chemistry volume during development, and I was using 12fl oz (354ml) of HC-110 dil B and 300ml of rapid fixer, so at no point less than 50% more than the minimum. I verified that the film was loaded correctly, emulsion side towards the center. I later tried re-fixing the negs, but the stains did not budge.

Previously I got the same artifacts in the Jobo, but got clean negs when I tray processed the same film stock (TMax 100) in the same soups.

I know that others have processed sheet film in 2800 series drums with no ill effects. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

[Alan9940]

Since I use Expert Drums, I cannot provide any help as far as use of a 2800 series tank. However, your chemistry volume seems quite low to me. If you adhere to the 6ml HC-110 concentrate as an acceptable minimum per 80 sq in of film, then you'd need approx 672ml of working developer for 8 sheets of 5x7; assuming I did the math right, but you get the idea.

[Jim Noel]

I agree with Alan as far as quantities are concerned,but I can't explain those large blotches. Have the tubes been used for other processes? Have they ever contained Kodak Photo-Flo?
In either case,they need a good washing with hot water. Photo-Flo will adhere to the plastic and cause over development in areas where prevalent.

[Scyg]

You're probably right. Having done tray and open tank processing in the past, I never thought of the actual chemistry capacity, since I never even came close to the limits before. Scanning direct from negs also hides a lot of ugliness. I'll have to check my numbers. Thanks for the heads-up.
FWIW, the solution seems to be to use slower rotation speeds so the chemistry can penetrate to the back of the film before it gets whisked out of the soup again. Also, while re-fixing the negatives does nothing, it turns out the anti-halation dye clears up nicely when treated with developer. So at least I have a solution, even if it's still a sub-optimal one.

[Sal Santamaura]

I need advice with film developing, and please don't make the answer "get an expert tank" - that doesn't even come near my budget at this point). I have a drum consisting of a 2830 bottom and 2870 top, a kosher combination for eight 5x7s as far as Jobo is concerned..."Kosher" for prints, not film.


...I'm getting weird staining on the negatives...Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.Sorry to ignore your request, but the only JOBO drums deemed "kosher" for 5x7 film are the 3005 and 3006 Expert versions. Save your pennies, or embrace the artifacts. Reality sucks, but it's real.

[Gary Beasley]

Hypo clearing agent is pretty good at removing antihalation dyes too. Since its sulfite your developer probably has that in it too as an antioxidant, halide solvent and/or alkali component.

[Roger Thoms]

I've had something similar and was able to remove it by letting the film soak in a tray of water for 15 or 20 minutes. Looks like remnants of the anti-halation coating where the film contact the drum.

Roger

[koraks]

Definitely looks like antihalation dye. Just wash those negatives again (in a tray) and the stains will likely be gone.

Ive done 5x7 film in jobo paper drums as well and it works - at least with regular film. Xray film didn't go so well; it's more prone to uneven development.

[Scyg]

"Kosher" for prints, not film.

Sorry to ignore your request, but the only JOBO drums deemed "kosher" for 5x7 film are the 3005 and 3006 Expert versions. Save your pennies, or embrace the artifacts. Reality sucks, but it's real.

Yes, I know the right-tools-for-the-right-job bit, and whenever possible I try to stick to it. Unfortunately, right now is not whenever. Normally I'd stick to tray development, but I wanted to try color at some point in the future, and I'm not putting my fingers in that - gloves or no gloves. Also, I know people have successfully used 2800s for film developing, and if they can, I should be able to also. I'm pretty good at making things work despite constraints, even if it takes a bit of trial and error to get things right.

[Scyg]

Just wash those negatives again (in a tray) and the stains will likely be gone.
I tried fixing and washing to no effect. What really helped was developer, or as Gary noted above, the sodium sulfate in it. All of the stain is gone now. Definitely a workaround in case it happens again, though I'm still hoping to figure out a method of avoiding the problem in the first place.

If you adhere to the 6ml HC-110 concentrate as an acceptable minimum per 80 sq in of film, then you'd need approx 672ml of working developer for 8 sheets of 5x7; assuming I did the math right, but you get the idea.
The Kodak data sheet for HC-110 gives tank capacities of 20 8x10x per gallon of B solution. That works out to 12.5 sq in per fl oz, and at 280 sq in for eight 5x7s gives me 22.4 fl oz minimum or 662ml - pretty close to what you got (I am once again confirmed in my hatred for the imperial system!). So you were right, I was using it over its capacity. This means I need to either switch to a smaller drum combination or figure out how to fit 24 fl oz of chemicals into a 12 oz lid cup :(

[koraks]

Yeah a sulfite bath often clears things up. Good to hear you resolved the issue!

[Alan9940]

So you were right, I was using it over its capacity.

If you haven't seen this already, you may wish to review the information given here: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/

[Scyg]

If you haven't seen this already, you may wish to review the information given here: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/

Thanks. That's some good info.

[Peter De Smidt]

Would lining the drum with fiberglass screen help?

[Scyg]

Would lining the drum with fiberglass screen help?

Since the film is held by the ridges on the inside face of the drum, it would be a very delicate job of making sure they remained untouched. I'd also be worried about scratching the back of the film.

[Bernice Loui]

Fiberglass can be abrasive. This risk scratching the film base or emulsion side. If the glass fibers used to make fiberglass floats off the material, there is further risk of film damage and other related damage.


Bernice


Would lining the drum with fiberglass screen help?

[Fred L]

I wonder if the union where the tanks join is causing this problem ? Is it all sheets or just a few, and what's the orientation of the sheets in the drum ?

[Chauncey Walden]

Or, just do 4 sheets at a time and load the film into a tank filled with water to start.

[Peter De Smidt]

I've used plastic coated window screen in a Jobo just drum with no problems.

[Scyg]

Thanks for everyone's help and suggestions. Here's the salvaged image:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49862196173_409518e96b_b.jpg
Now to deal with those Newton rings...

[ic-racer]

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?122184-Marks-when-Using-Jobo-Print-Drums-for-B-amp-W-negatives-Possible-causes-and-solutions

[Scyg]

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?122184-Marks-when-Using-Jobo-Print-Drums-for-B-amp-W-negatives-Possible-causes-and-solutions

Thanks ic-racer. My next step is to test slower rotation speeds to see whether that allows the chemicals to penetrate the back side of the film better. Just hoping I don't get streaking from under-agitation. But I figure the only way to find out is to try.

[Gary Beasley]

Possibly the easiest step is to put the negs in a tray of hypo clear after fixing to allow the backside to clean up. Then do your wash in the tray.

[Scyg]

Possibly the easiest step is to put the negs in a tray of hypo clear after fixing to allow the backside to clean up. Then do your wash in the tray.

Yes, if the speed reduction doesn't work that'll have to be it. But now that I know the issue is solvable, I can experiment without worrying about losing images, so that's great in itself.

[wooserco]

Have you tried a pre wash with water prior to development? I use the JOBO test print drum (forget the number) to process 4x5 negatives with no problems. Just a thought that a 5 minute pre wash swells the emulsion and allows the developer to work more evenly across the sheet when first introduced to the drum.