What is the good camera for wet plate photography

[hiroh]

Hi, this is my first post on this forum. I'm a digital (mostly) portrait photographer and I just recently discovered wet plate collodion and salt printing and I literally became obsessed :) I want to buy the camera and the other materials to start making my own photos, but I cannot decide what format and what brand/model.

Format: I heard it's much easier to start with small wet plates, but I know I'll eventually want larger size, and something like 4x5 sounds like too small, even for the beginning. Even 8x10 sounds too small to me, but if it's so much more difficult than 4x5, I'm ok for that compromise. I print my photos myself on my inkjet printer and they are usually 17x22in, but I got so used to this size that it became so small over years, so recently I usually send my photos to the shop to be printed on the even larger sizes. I know this is comparing apples and oranges, but I just wanted to say that really small photos does not inspire me as much as the large sized prints. This (https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52d84837e4b034761cc24478/1540316068886-TNZ84INF9ES4TXOAYALM/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kLPswmMOqQZ9-Q6KHLjvbpZ7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1UTcpTqfU-ZEsztPyQLxhSSK-PhJjRDDFQG0l3_ZnmWi1QjT9byXZM3ISxo3y1NRptg/casey.jpg?format=2500w) size looks fantastic to me, but it's 16x20, so probably even much more complicated for the beginner.

Camera: What good camera would you suggest me? I've seen hundreds of cameras on ebay, and I just can't decide. There are 170 years old ones and the brand new ones. I have no ideas what kind of picture they produce. Even though I like larger size, on the contrary, I don't like super sharp wet plate photos. My favorite collodian photos are quite blurry and I'd say made with vintage, rather than brand new cameras. This (https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5166e235e4b00ae130d00494/1581518157241-6OIQNBRVUHFEXMOMARGX/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kG4uGeZVL9sdXZ03fq8RR6MUqsxRUqqbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8PaoYXhp6HxIwZIk7-Mi3Tsic-L2IOPH3Dwrhl-Ne3Z2aLeOia4wwy0PURbCuK2b9lZo_wYM2YYtw_PmAnS1NzKbtxPRH917Fz9Qv_NunPol/Ashley-000962.jpg) is the image quality I like. I want a good camera, that will serve me for many years and that I'll enjoy using it and will provide good results. I don't want necessarily something ridiculously cheap, nor the most expensive one, but I'm open to hear all suggestions as if the budget is not a problem, so I can later decide how much do I want to invest.

Thank you :)

[Steven Tribe]

There are some words of wisdom here:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?88119-Which-camera-for-collodion-wet-plate-photography

It is question of suitable plate holders, rather than suitable cameras! With the innards made of non-wood materials.
However, you will be using fast and HEAVY lenses which require a very solid front standard.

There is much good logic in trying out with smaller formats in the learning stage of wet plate processes. All wet plate holders can be adapted to smaller formats, so an 8x10 purchase will cover smaller formats with slight temporary modifications to the holder(s).

[hiroh]

Thanks Steven.

What do you think about this one I found on ebay: [OP removed the link]

It's 11x14, but I can modify it to 4x5 or 5x7 for the start, but I don't want to limit myself to only 4x5, so if I want, I can try 8x10 or 10x12.

[Steven Tribe]

We try not to mention/“de facto” promote on-going auction listings!
This is a camera well suited to stationary wet plate and the single side plate holder is perfect for wet plate.
There are plenty of these early American cameras which are really very robust and still have original backs, ground glass frames and single plate holders. Perhaps not quite as prestine (or as expensive!) as your example!

LFPF has both wanted and for sale commercial threads which become available when you have been registered here for a month!

[hiroh]

Ouch sorry, didn't know. I can remove it, no problem.

Maybe a dumb question but aren't all 11x14 cameras stationary?

It would be great if I can have an access to that part of the forum now because in a month I'll probably find what I'm looking for :)

[Steven Tribe]

Most studio type cameras are actually smaller than 11x14 - and are often retro fitted with quite a lot smaller sized backs - even with multi backs giving 4, 6 or 8 images per single sheet of film.

There are some robust field cameras which cover 11x14, which can be mounted on a tripod. There is a very good website which illustrates these for US. Makers from about 1880 onwards.

http://www.piercevaubel.com/cam/roc/amch.htm

In Europe, the larger format sizes were often achieved in studios using the larger tailboard 30x40cm travel cameras.

Note the lens fitted to the auction camera you referenced is a projection lens, probably with a “Cooke” triplet design. A photographic Petzval lens to cover 11x14” is a rare and expensive item.

[robertraymer]

In my experience, almost any camera can be used to make wet plates, even a 35mm camera, though obviously the resulting images will be tiny. I personally started a few years ago shooting 4x5 plates and have used everything from a speed graphic to a Series D RB Graflex, to a Burke and James 8x10 that allowed me to shoot both 8x10 and 4x5 plates with the reducing back. I now use a Cambo legend 8x10 with 4x5 back which also allows for 4x5 and 8x10 plates. Although I would also like to shoot larger (11x14 or even 16x20) plates, there are a lot of reasons I have found this to be impractical for me. You may very well be in a different situation, but at least consider the following:

1. Collodion has a STEEP learning curve, especially if you are not already familiar with shooting large format. You will make a lot of mistakes and waste a lot of plates before you get good results.
2. Chemicals are expensive and even buying "pre made" chemicals and kits, there is some mixing and maintaining of chemistry involved, and your ability to do so properly will directly impact your results.
3. Proper technique in everything from pouring plates, sensitizing plates, getting proper exposures, to varnishing plates is very important and also takes a lot of time and many mistakes to master.
4. Due to all 3 of the above, there will be a quite a lot of expense involved just in getting your technique to where you can consistently produce decent images.
5. Your costs will drastically increase based on the format that you learn on. For example, an 8x10 plates takes 4 times as much collodion and silver than a 4x5 plate.
6. Costs for holders, silver/fixing tanks, cameras etc will also increase as your format gets larger.
7. Lenses are expensive, and the cost of lenses with larger image circles needed to cover larger formats are significantly higher than those that cover smaller formats, especially when trying to find them with the relatively larger apertures that benefit working with collodion.
8. Larger lenses are also typically heavier, especially when talking about the older (often) brass barrel lenses commonly used for collodion, so whatever format you use, you need to make sure the front standard can handle the weight of the lenses you will use.

For all of these reasons, my personal suggestion and what I found most useful is an older wood 8x10 that you can find reducing backs for. Both 4x5 and 8x10 holders are easy to find and relatively inexpensive, at least compared to larger formats. And the older cameras, though not as flashy, are also fairly easy to find in good condition and usually far cheaper than newer cameras.

My B&J fit this bill perfectly. I was able to find one for far less than a newer 8x10 studio camera, it was light enough that I could travel with it (though not necessarily easily hike with it). The front standard was strong enough for even my heaviest lenses, though limited in diameter at 6"x6" lens boards, and it had an 8x10 reducing back, which allowed me to make a bunch of mistakes with 4x5 until I felt confident enough to shoot the more expensive 8x10 plates knowing I would not be as likely to mess them up.

Obviously, your situation and mileage will vary, but at least know that the camera is only part of the equation for wet plate work.

[grat]

LFPF has both wanted and for sale commercial threads which become available when you have been registered here for a month!

I understand the desire to cut down on spam, bots, and other malignant posters, but the ultimate result is that about a month ago, I got serious about purchasing a large format camera and all the necessary accouterments. I joined this forum, looking for information in "lurker" mode (and found some useful threads... thanks!), but was unaware until last week there even *was* a for sale forum... and couldn't figure out why I couldn't access it (or my personal profile, for that matter).

I have, in the past month, scoured the interwebs for a camera, made a decision, purchased it, found lenses, film backs, a light meter, the odd accessory.. and by the time I'll be granted access (Next Saturday) to the for sale forum, I'll have purchased everything I need for the immediate future-- in fact, I hope to be developing my first negatives by then (I would be already, but this whole pandemic thing is slowing down shipping).

The policy is very unfriendly to people trying to get into LF photography, and doesn't really help the people trying to sell their items, either, in my opinion.

My apologies for the tangent.

[paulbarden]

What Robert Raymer said is good advice.

The collodion technique has a steep learning curve, and you will waste a lot of materials and money during the learning phase if you start out making 8x10 or 11 X 14 plates. Making an 8x10 plate requires considerably more skill than a 4x5 plate does, so starting with 8x10 is likely to make learning far more difficult for you.
Learn to walk before you try to run.

[Andrew Plume]

Dear OP

Mate, do please start with a smaller format, no disrespect at all - the ULF sizes are for the experienced Boys and Girls - look at the 19thc history.......there was a massive amount, proportion wise of Photographers using small formats i.e. smaller than 5 x 7, not just in Wet Plate but also for Dry Plate work

good luck and best regards

Andrew

[Greg]

Highly recommend a Burke & James Rembrandt camera.lens boards measure 8" x 8". "Ample size for big lenses" as in my 1961 B&J catalog puts it. Had one and removed the gray paint to uncover #1 maple? hardwood which I was easily able to stain.

[hiroh]

Thanks all for the support.

I'd like to start with wet plate, but I'm also interested in LF film. With collodion I'll do mostly portraits in my home studio, but with film I think I'll want to go out, shoot people, architecture, my family etc. That's what I do with digital, and although it's much easier and cheaper, I want so badly to go into LF.

Do you think Graflex Super D would be a good start to cover both wet plates and film? And I'll probably need two lenses, one for portraits and one wider for everything else.

[robertraymer]

A Graflex Super D would work for wet plate. One advantage that it will have is that as opposed to most view cameras, it is an SLR which will allow to see exactly what you are shooting as you shoot it rather than having to focus, load the holder, remove the darkslide, etc. This may be a more familiar shooting process for you if you have never done any LF work before and may allow you to refine your collodion technique a bit without worrying about learning the view camera process as well.

It will have disadvantages as well. The first is that you will be limited to 4x5 (or smaller if you use a smaller model), and will need to invest in a new camera if you ever decide to move larger. The second is that it has an inherently limited bellows, so you may not be able to use all the lenses that you want, and larger, heavier lenses typically used with a lot of collodion work, especially portrait work, will likely be out of the question due to a smaller lens board (4"x4") and a front standard that is not terribly strong. For example, I use a Dallmeyer pentac 8" lens (brass version) on my very similar Series D, and it is very close to the limit in terms of size and weight the camera can handle. While by no means a "small" lens, it is not terribly large compared to many lenses used for wet plate.

[hiroh]

Sounds like quite a big limitation with the lens choice. As a portrait photographer I usually shoot with 75 or 90mm on my full frame camera, which would be equivalent to 250-300mm on 4x5, which is pretty big for Super D, I'd say?

I liked the portability of this camera. Although I'm going to shoot mostly in my home studio, I'll probably go out with it sometimes. Is there any other 4x5 small camera that does't have this bellows limitation, or it's always the case and only the bigger cameras have longer bellows?

[robertraymer]

I get quite nice results with my RB Series D and either a Kodak No.33 Anastigmat 7 1/2" (190mm) lens or Dallmeyer 8" Pentac with both film and collodion, but that is working within what I know the camera limitations to be. I don't think you would be able to get away with anything much longer than the pentac, though I have only ever used these 2 lenses on it. It is a great camera for what it is, and I love mine when the situation calls for it, but despite being very portable it is not very versatile, whereas a regular view camera may not be nearly as portable, but will be much more versatile. Neither one is wrong. As I said, I love both of mine, but I choose the one I need to create the image I want at the time, and I think that is what you will need to do. Decide what factors are most important (format size, camera size, portability, versatility, bellows/lens limitations, cost, etc) and choose the camera that fits those needs best.

[hiroh]

Yeah, eventually you end up with more than one camera. I have 3 digital cameras and each has a different purpose and I won't be able to capture all I captured with just one of them.