SINAR Norma: Now I get it!

[Exploring Large Format]

Wow! I'd read about how beautifully machined the Norma is. I bit the bullet, and ordered a few components. Rail first. Bellows from a local shop. Today, the Rear Standard arrived, and I couldn't believe just how nice this is. Super tight, well-conceived and executed. Sublime, is what comes to mind by way of that old saw of form meeting function just so.

I had wanted a solid studio camera. I started with my Intrepid 4x5, and it's great for what it is too. Really hits a sweet spot, IMHO. Location work, travel ease, gateway drug. But the Norma hits the studio spot.

Only problem now it that I must aspire to doing the Norma justice. A lifelong endeavor, I can tell.

Much thanks to all the Norma ambassadors.

[CreationBear]

But the Norma hits the studio spot.


We few, we happy few...:)

Great choice, but with a few tweaks, the Norma is eminently fieldable as well...here's a thread to get you started, but there are a couple of ways to skin that cat:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?137209-Backpacking-a-Sinar-Norma-8x10-Camera

Otherwise, a couple of other points:

1.) If you're in the market for a tripod head, the Sinar pan/tilt head really works well (as you might expect)...not nearly as heavy as it first appears, either.

2.) If you find yourself becoming "format curious,":) the move up to 5x7 shouldn't cost an arm and a leg (basically you're looking at a "format change" assembly--rear standard/DDS frame/bellows). It's still packable as well--I'm currently putting a lot of trail miles on my 5x7 kit--certainly a contender in the "bang for the buck" sweepstakes.

[Bernice Loui]

Majority of Sinar Norma's have never been properly cleaned-serviced-lubed. Very likely the original lubricants (no less than four decades now) are still in the camera, which has turned into clay by now.

If you're mechanically skilled and inclined, at the very least, take the Norma focus gear system apart, clean it really GOOD, then apply the proper lubricants, re-assemble, adjust properly. This guide could help you in this endeavor.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?156434-Question-for-sinar-norma-owners&highlight=sinar+norma+focus

The hardened lubricants can increase the control friction beyond what the systems are designed for which can cause a long list of problems. Until the Norma is properly clean-lubed-adjusted, it is not possible to appreciate how nice a proper Sinar Norma really is.

Norma is FAR more than just the camera in hand now, it is entry to the entire Sinar system as much of what Sinar made can be used with the Norma to Sinar P2.. Variety of bag bellows, standard bellows, as much bellows are you're willing by adding rails, front or support standards with front and read standards.
202942

Not a lot of limitations on what lens can be used on a Sinar, not just the bellows limitations are mostly removed, it is the Sinar shutter that allows using a vey wide variety of Barrel lenses.

There are bellows shades, adjustable mask and lots more that impose very few limitations to creative image making.

Sinar, not just a view camera, it is a completely interchangeable system that spans decades of Sinar models and production.


Bernice





Wow! I'd read about how beautifully machined the Norma is. I bit the bullet, and ordered a few components. Rail first. Bellows from a local shop. Today, the Rear Standard arrived, and I couldn't believe just how nice this is. Super tight, well-conceived and executed. Sublime, is what comes to mind by way of that old saw of form meeting function just so.

I had wanted a solid studio camera. I started with my Intrepid 4x5, and it's great for what it is too. Really hits a sweet spot, IMHO. Location work, travel ease, gateway drug. But the Norma hits the studio spot.

Only problem now it that I must aspire to doing the Norma justice. A lifelong endeavor, I can tell.

Much thanks to all the Norma ambassadors.

[Drew Wiley]

It's my favorite Sinar, and nearly all my usage is in the field.

[Bernice Loui]

Yep, that applies much the same here Drew.

Indoor or similar stuff, Sinar P.


Bernice


It's my favorite Sinar, and nearly all my usage is in the field.

[Exploring Large Format]

Majority of Sinar Norma's have never been properly cleaned-serviced-lubed. Very likely the original lubricants (no less than four decades now) are still in the camera, which has turned into clay by now.

If you're mechanically skilled and inclined, at the very least, take the Norma focus gear system apart, clean it really GOOD, then apply the proper lubricants, re-assemble, adjust properly. This guide could help you in this endeavor.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?156434-Question-for-sinar-norma-owners&highlight=sinar+norma+focus

The hardened lubricants can increase the control friction beyond what the systems are designed for which can cause a long list of problems. Until the Norma is properly clean-lubed-adjusted, it is not possible to appreciate how nice a proper Sinar Norma really is.

Norma is FAR more than just the camera in hand now, it is entry to the entire Sinar system as much of what Sinar made can be used with the Norma to Sinar P2.. Variety of bag bellows, standard bellows, as much bellows are you're willing by adding rails, front or support standards with front and read standards.
202942

Not a lot of limitations on what lens can be used on a Sinar, not just the bellows limitations are mostly removed, it is the Sinar shutter that allows using a vey wide variety of Barrel lenses.

There are bellows shades, adjustable mask and lots more that impose very few limitations to creative image making.

Sinar, not just a view camera, it is a completely interchangeable system that spans decades of Sinar models and production.


Bernice

Thanks all for your responses. Bernice, I think I blame you most of all for your evangelism of the Norma. Blame in a good way.

The link to the CLA is fantastic. My only CLA-able piece, a rear standard, feels really flawless it seems despite a few very small nicks. Rise and fall could be a smidge more effortless, but I'll have more of a sense when I receive my front standard and multi-purpose standard.

On that point, I was thinking I'd use the multi-purpose and extra bellows as my lens shade in the studio. Couldn't find much about this. Much more about attempts to use the hex rod and many DYI notions for lightweight, field lens hood. Am I still barking up the right tree with the bellow and extra standard for studio or indoor location? Or am I missing something?

And, yes, I can begin to see how well the Norma could work in the field, but I'm still fixated on my Intrepid. Started walking (stalking?) the neighborhood to capture all the Covid-strollers. But yes, really good link to field packing the Norma. Thanks!

I totally get how the Norma could easily slide one into 5x7. One small step for a man.... We'll see.

But your photo, Bernice, of the two SINARs facing one another looks like some wild attempt to get the ultimate "barbershop effect" photo. Much thanks to all!!

[Exploring Large Format]

CreationBear:

Yes, I may very well be in the market for a nice SINAR Pan/Tilt Head. I thought I'd wait till I get my Rail Clamp (any day now from a Forum member!) to check it out on my system. But again, there are so many boosters of the Pan/Tilt Head, how to resist?

[Bernice Loui]

Example of Norma to P2 compatibility. P2 front, Norma aux standard, Norma 5x7 rear standard, two bellows completely mixed vintage.
That is a BIG brass lens, about the same weight or more than some folder-field cameras.

202980

RH side view:
202981

LH side view:
202982


Bernice

[Bernice Loui]

If the rail is cut down to just fitting the rail clamp ring, front & rear standards, the Norma becomes compact.
This is how the 5x7 Norma is fitted into largest FAA approved carry on Pelican case with wheels.

To use, pull the Norma as presented in these two pictures, put the Norma on the rail clamp, add as many extensions front or back as needed, draw out the bellows as needed. The lens that lives on the Norma at this point is a 240mm f4.5 Schneider Xenar in barrel and Sinar shutter.

All very compact and sets up a LOT faster than a folder-field camera with near similar size & weight.

202983

202984

Simply do not believe the Norma is a "studio" camera as this is what can be done to shrink and make easy to transport the Norma.
Plus, all the nice features of the Norma is ready as needed.


Bernice

[Exploring Large Format]

Example of Norma to P2 compatibility. P2 front, Norma aux standard, Norma 5x7 rear standard, two bellows completely mixed vintage.
That is a BIG brass lens, about the same weight or more than some folder-field cameras.

202980

RH side view:
202981

LH side view:
202982


BerniceNice mix and match.

And I've seen your, and other, references to 5x7 tapered bellows for 4x5 in order to reduce bellows flare. I am not really familiar with bellows flare. Similar to lens flare in sense of light entering from oblique angles and scattering inside, or how to describe? How would one define the circumstances for lens vs. bellows flare? Thanks!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Bernice Loui]

The tapered bellows for 5x7 is a given requirement to transition from the square size of the front standard to meet the square frame size of the 5x7 film back.

Bellows flare is a given and it can cause more problems that most would know or realize. This is why going after THE largest image circle beyond what is needed for a given film format is not a good idea. This is also why folks who use a larger film format camera with a reducing film back can achieve better contrast rendition on film.

Alternative is to apply an adjustable bellows lens shade to essentially cut off the excessive stray light that will bounce off the insides of the bellows. This has been discussed on LFF. do a search on this topic.


Bernice

[Don Dudenbostel]

I bought a new Norma in 1969 and used it as my primary 4x5 camera in my commercial studio for decades. I couldn’t even guess how many thousand sheets of film I’ve put through it and it still works like a new camera and looks great too. I used it in the studio and on location and it has traveled many trips across the country.

I owned the 5x7 components that I bought in 1970 and used them on occasion but used it for personal work more than commercial. 5x7 really never took off in the US for commercial work.

[Bernice Loui]

5x7 was and has been THE odd sheet film format in the US for decades. It has often been considered an artsy sheet film format for a long list of reasons. Back in those days, 4x5 was by far the most common sheet film size for a long list of reasons. If you're doing commercial work of producing several hundred to thousand sheets of color transparency film for catalog printing, film cost does make a difference as with efficiency of image production. This is one of the reasons why 4x5 color transparency film, in studio table top, controlled lighting and Sinar P could be so effective at this kind of work. Those days are essentially long gone.

In Europe (Germany) 13x18cm was popular, very popular. That was a time when importing color transparency film like Agfa chrome RS100 was not too bad. This is why there are 13x18cm film holders today along with 5x67 film holders.

8x10 was a much lesser common commercial sheet film format, it was even back then considered more of an artist format. IMO, it's origins goes back to studio portraiture and there is little that can equal the unique image quality of a 8x10 portrait contact print made using a sort-of-focus lens.


Bernice




5x7 really never took off in the US for commercial work.

[Don Dudenbostel]

5x7 was and has been THE odd sheet film format in the US for decades. It has often been considered an artsy sheet film format for a long list of reasons. Back in those days, 4x5 was by far the most common sheet film size for a long list of reasons. If you're doing commercial work of producing several hundred to thousand sheets of color transparency film for catalog printing, film cost does make a difference as with efficiency of image production. This is one of the reasons why 4x5 color transparency film, in studio table top, controlled lighting and Sinar P could be so effective at this kind of work. Those days are essentially long gone.


I've been in the business 52 years and still shoot a little commercial work. The majority of my work was for catalogs and advertising and still do ads. In the days before scanners appeared all separations were done on a process camera or enlarger like a Durst 8x10. We shot to a specific format for catalogs. I worked for a couple of large ad agencies before opening my studio 35 years ago. The art department would produce clear acetate overlays with the area pf the page scaled to fit the format we were shooting. We used the overlay to place elements of the image in the proper space and had the copy blocked in so we would know where that would go. We shot all pages to match an overlay that was consistent from page to page. Al single page shots would be exactly the same scale reproduction, all double page the same scale and so on. The made it possible to gang separate rather than a different and costly scale for each image. Individual shots were on 4x5 and inserted in the page, full page were 8x10 and double page 11x14 Color Transparencies. Generally it was Ektachrome but later I used Fuji Provia. Even though sheet film was expensive the cost savings in seps was significant over the cost of oil,.

Scanners however changed the world and we no longer shot to scale. Gan sees were no problem on a drum scanner.

[Pere Casals]

the Norma

You may download this manual for the Norma: http://doczz.net/doc/2811502/the-rough-guide-to-cleaning--lubricating--and-adjusting-t...


Anyway I serviced mine by simply using a thin layer dry teflon special lube, mine was not moving fine but it was like new after it was simply lubricated in that way without disassembling it, contact me by PM if wnating detailed instructions for that. Several years after that lubrication it still works perfectly smooth, see how smooth it handles a near 2kg lens, with all hard points precise and smooth:


https://live.staticflickr.com/video/47092537484/0bafe30e1e/1080p.mp4?s=eyJpIjo0NzA5MjUzNzQ4NCwiZSI6MTU4Nzg1Njc4MiwicyI6ImQ5NWU4ZTc5MzY2ZmYzZjljODAzNDlhNzEyMTMxYWZmYTNlMTA5NmMiLCJ2IjoxfQ



There are many very good LF cameras, but the Norma is legendary like not many. Mine was the workhorse of two photographers in a row, working dayly for decades, and still it's like new.

[Exploring Large Format]

Thanks all, for your responses and especially for the links on Norma cleaning, lubrication. Haven't tackled a full-on rehab yet, but did read the cleaning manual more than once.

Gave me just what I needed to loosen a stuck set screw with confidence and I avoided buggering it up. Amazing how the high quality hex wrench works sooo much better than the bicycle tool hex wrench of the same nominal size. Lots of excellent tips in that guide!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49919277533_009ee45407_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j4cm3R)New Sinar Norma second 4x5 one (https://flic.kr/p/2j4cm3R) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Having multiple cameras is real luxury and means that they can be configured and left setup as long as required. This is my second 4x5 Norma now have two, plus a 5x7 Norma and an 8x10. One of the 4x5s will stay on the Norma Copy Stand/Overhead Shooting Table.

This one is a shelf queen, a few small scrapes, but used little and basically stored for sixty years. Probably my cleanest Norma but does need a good cleaning, and could use a new bellows, big tear can be repaired with 3M black teflon tape for now. Shortly I will send multiple 4x5 Norma tapered bellows to www.custombellows.co.uk and they will make authentic replacements. Overall Norma is basically ready to use right now. I am delighted.

Great deal at $220.

[Drew Wiley]

Bernice - tapered bellows tend to have less flare than box bellows. Although tapered is mandatory with 5x7 and 8x10 configurations, it was replaced after the Norma series with a box bellows on 4X5's. But one can still fit the original Norma tapered bellows on later 4X5's if they can find one in good shape. I kept a box bellows for sake of a lens compendium shade, which Sinar makes easy by means of a rod and clip system, which you no doubt have too. Flare has become a non-issue for me even with 8x10 lenses with huge image circles on 4x5 film, unless I deliberately want it (don't laugh - printed a couple of those kinds of shots yesterday, but I'd term it selective glare at a certain point of the scene, generally the horizon, and not overall washout. I'm quite an admirer of the ability of 19th C photographers to tastefully obtain a sense of atmosphere and distance in their shots).

[Bernice Loui]

Yep, tapered bellows DO have lower flare than the current straight box bellows. Suspect these went out of production due to cost involved with making a proper tapered bellows. For decades, used a Norma 5x7 bellows, it was GOOD, nicely tapered, with elastic inside to help retain it's shape as it was extended-compressed, for flexi and longer than the later Sinar 5x7 bellows which is made of some hard-stiff non-natural material. What is nice about the Sinar system, swapping out bellows take flipping a few latches and in not too many seconds later the bellows is off ready for a different bellows.

Carry both the standard tapered bellows and a bag bellows in the Sinar Norma outfit. Which bellows is used depends on what is needed.



:)
Bernice


Bernice - tapered bellows tend to have less flare than box bellows. Although tapered is mandatory with 5x7 and 8x10 configurations, it was replaced after the Norma series with a box bellows on 4X5's. But one can still fit the original Norma tapered bellows on later 4X5's if they can find one in good shape. I kept a box bellows for sake of a lens compendium shade, which Sinar makes easy by means of a rod and clip system, which you no doubt have too. Flare has become a non-issue for me even with 8x10 lenses with huge image circles on 4x5 film, unless I deliberately want it (don't laugh - printed a couple of those kinds of shots yesterday, but I'd term it selective glare at a certain point of the scene, generally the horizon, and not overall washout. I'm quite an admirer of the ability of 19th C photographers to tastefully obtain a sense of atmosphere and distance in their shots).

[Tin Can]

I do admire Sinar Tapered Bellows and use a very good one

The Sinar Hood system is a good use of not perfect bellows

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49895945652_5f3741ced7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j28Li3)Sinar Norma Price List July 1966 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2j28Li3) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49895120703_a5af853a54_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j24x4M)Sinar Norma Price List July 1966 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2j24x4M) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

If you want a cheap basic 4x5 that is all good. If you you want to accumulate a super ultra unmatched system that is doable as well. Look at all the stuff that was available! No other LF camera system is even close to matching it's capabilities :)

Acquiring the original Norma instruction book is a must if you are to acquaint yourself with what I call "The Erector Set of Photography".

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50215750598_bba6b2a804_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jvoRaq)4x5 5x7 8x10 Normas (https://flic.kr/p/2jvoRaq) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50189329028_191eb124a8_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jt4qX7)8x10 to 5x7 Norma Special Bellows 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2jt4qX7) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

"The Erector Set of Large Format Photography".

[MSStudio]

Hi. I'm interested in getting a higher resolution image of this price list for Sinar. Is that available anywhere?

Mike

[MSStudio]

Update: I found 2 pages on Flickr

[Daniel Unkefer]

Yep I was going to suggest clicking on my Flikr links. ENJOY :)

[Drew Wiley]

I think some of Daniel's concoctions might be mistaken for NASA Mars landing craft. Maybe one of those is designed to record alien life. But it will probably scare them away instead with its big eyeball.

[Salmo22]

I've been thinking about getting a Norma for some time. I don't believe I've actually seen one in the flesh, but this thread has me getting serious about acquisition. A few questions.

1. What is the "SYSTEM C KOCH"? I don't see it on every Norma I've looked at online.

2. What does the Norma Expert 4x5 bring to the party that the 'Standard' Norma does not?

3. As a neophyte to the Norma world, what should I be looking for when evaluating used Norma's?

Many thanks for the information and getting me off the fence.

[Mark Sampson]

1) Sinar Normas were in production for at least 22 years; 1948-70 or so. Some variation in labeling over time is to be expected.
2) "Expert" in later Sinars usually refers to a very complete kit with many accessories, rather than just the camera.
3) With these cameras, physical condition is everything. Many have been used hard for decades, and all are over 50 years old. But like a vintage Rolls-Royce, they can be rebuilt... but those with the skills to do so are few and far between. Buy the best one you can find.
4) I'm no Sinar Expert but have been using them for 30 years, and have used my own 4x5 Norma since 2010. The real experts will correct my mistakes before long!

[Salmo22]

I got of my lazy behind and did some additional 'Norma' research on LFPF and elsewhere. Somewhat embarrassed about my 'SYSTEM C KOCH' question. It seems every Norma has that engraved on the front standard and I was confused when I saw close-up images of, what I learned was, the back standard. Is there a resource for determining the age of a Norma via the serial number? I'm thinking that would be helpful in my search.


I've been thinking about getting a Norma for some time. I don't believe I've actually seen one in the flesh, but this thread has me getting serious about acquisition. A few questions.

1. What is the "SYSTEM C KOCH"? I don't see it on every Norma I've looked at online.

2. What does the Norma Expert 4x5 bring to the party that the 'Standard' Norma does not?

3. As a neophyte to the Norma world, what should I be looking for when evaluating used Norma's?

Many thanks for the information and getting me off the fence.

[Daniel Unkefer]

No need to feel embarrassed, really...

I can try to help you. No serial numbers listing I've ever found. -Real- early Normas were black hammerloid finish. First production Normas have the Locking Levers on the focus microdrives. The last of the Normas, they removed the Locking Lever feature, they felt they didn't need them, I guess?

Sinar offered the Norma as an "Expert" kit. It's the Norma plus some basic accessories.

Try to examine the camera, try to get a return priviledge if possible. Most work fine out of the gate, some have lived rough lives. Any Norma not completely Busted (shattered parts) can be rebuilt, if you have the skills to do it, or you pony up $$$.

Check out Glennview. Glenn can rebuild Normas (it is expensive!)

https://glennview.com/sinar.htm

I've been a customer of Glenn for many decades.

I search periodically for Norma stuff at Ebay.com but also Ebay.UK and Ebay.de

[Drew Wiley]

Being earlier Sinar cameras, if shopping for one, the main point would be their condition. Really clean ones do turn up. The biggest problem is generally with the bellows. Cameras with the original tapered bellows in excellent condition are hard to find. It's a deluxe bellows really nice to work with. You can easily substitute the later box style 4X5 bellows; but if that is what is installed on the camera, there might be other component substitutions too. Everything might work perfectly well, but any hybrid setup should be clearly identified by the seller; otherwise, there might be some unannounced wear and tear anomalies too. But I wouldn't worry about a missing little level or something minor like that.

Even the clean ones need period maintenance and tuning up the screw tensions etc. That's pretty easy to do once you learn how. But the really old ones came with a kind of viewing glass that was coating frosted, and not actually ground glass. It's dimmer than real ground glass, and likely will have yellowed somewhat over time. So in that case, replacement with Sinar's later actual ground glass or some other quality substitute is recommended.

[Ben Calwell]

I've been thinking about getting a Norma for some time. I don't believe I've actually seen one in the flesh, but this thread has me getting serious about acquisition. A few questions.

1. What is the "SYSTEM C KOCH"? I don't see it on every Norma I've looked at online.

2. What does the Norma Expert 4x5 bring to the party that the 'Standard' Norma does not?

3. As a neophyte to the Norma world, what should I be looking for when evaluating used Norma's?

Many thanks for the information and getting me off the fence.



I’m with you. All this glowing talk about Normas makes me want to buy one to replace my Calumet CC401. Not being mechanically inclined, though, I hope there are still Normas out there that wouldn’t require extensive tinkering to work properly. I could handle some minor lubrication, but dismantling the camera for a complete overhaul wouldn’t be something I’d tackle. I might pay someone to do it.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53097471629_0260739569_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oU3qqM)New View Sinar Norma 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2oU3qqM) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr



https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53097690590_05bb3116cd_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oU4xvY)New View Sinar Norma 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2oU4xvY) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr



https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53097287866_01c22bbb12_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oU2tNs)New View Sinar Norma 3 (https://flic.kr/p/2oU2tNs) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr


ENJOY. :)

[Salmo22]

Thanks all for the kind comments, information, and suggestions. The one-and-only brick and mortar camera store in my area (Tempe Camera) has a good used camera section and often has used LF equipment on consignment. I would prefer to find one there that I can earnestly inspect in-person; however, I'm not opposed to online options. I like the idea of the tapered bellows that Drew mentions. Even if I need to replace the tapered bellows, due to wear, I'd probably go that route. My dad was a Tech Sargent in the USAF in charge of the photolab and maintaining the "gun" cameras on the squadron aircraft. He taught me how to perform a CLA on his Linhof, so I'm willing to give it a try, if needed, on a Norma.

It sure looks like Glenn (Glennview) is a good resource. Thanks Daniel.

The patient hunt begins. I'm sure I'll have other questions...

[rdenney]

I’m with you. All this glowing talk about Normas makes me want to buy one to replace my Calumet CC401. Not being mechanically inclined, though, I hope there are still Normas out there that wouldn’t require extensive tinkering to work properly. I could handle some minor lubrication, but dismantling the camera for a complete overhaul wouldn’t be something I’d tackle. I might pay someone to do it.

I went from a CC-401 to a Cambo SC. Big improvement. Then I switched to a Sinar F. Big improvement again. Then I added a Sinar P—and that was in the category of adding rather than replacing.

The Norma has better build quality than the F or P, but the features sit in between.

I’d be happy with the Norma instead of the F, but the P still does some stuff (like geared movements) the Norma doesn’t do, and sometimes it’s really nice to have. I particularly like the geared movements when using smaller roll-film formats.

Rick “who’d rather have a ‘lowly’ F than most alternatives in what used to be the affordable range” Denney

[Drew Wiley]

There are some lovely Norma 4X5's on EBay right now at very tempting prices (but note the shipping costs too). Often Norma listings are from reputable dealers specializing in them, along with related Sinar gear. Otherwise, it can be hard to find excellent ones with clean original bellows. Sometimes they show up on this Forum for sale too. I'd rather have, and did find, a barely used one from out of a studio environment via a specialty dealer, rather than something needing a lot of attention to refurbish. The price at the moment won't be much different. Even the clean ones are being offered more affordable than ever.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Keith at Custom Bellows rebuilds Norma Bellows to your specs, quickly and with great skill. He used to make original Norma Bellows, although the modern materials are not the beautiful perfect leather in the 1960's vintage. Keith also helped me out (what a great Man he's so nice!) make some original Norma Special Bellows I've seen only in the catalogs, never in person. Keith made for an 8x10 to 5x7 short "Special Bellows", so the point is, NEVER throw olde Norma Frames. Recycle with Keith and make something you need if you can't find it. Send him the Norma Bellow in shreds and he will remake it to size for you, at what I think is a very fair price. I've bought some thrown into a deal for Ten or Twenty Pounds, the Norma front frame is square black material with a round hole in the center. I think it is more desirable to use the original Norma Frames, rather then getting something more modern. Same with the Pan Tilt Head, it is part of the Norma Mechanism, designed as a whole. Best there is IMO. It completes the camera.

[Drew Wiley]

Keith does do excellent work. But the leather he now uses is thicker, which might be an improvement for certain applications, but won't operate quite like the original Norma 4X5 bellows which compresses so easily. I would avoid the Chinese generic plastic substitutes sold over the web due to fatigue risk at the corner folds. If you want polyurethane material, try Dynatec in the US. But for larger bellows, like 5X7 and 8X10 Norma cameras, Keith at Custom is definitely who you want to deal with. It's rather rare to encounter old Norma versions of these in pristine condition. Of course, you could substitute Sinar's own later equivalents; but those might be higher priced than Keith's if themselves found in good condition. 4X5 is a somewhat different story, because there are a lot more of them out there to choose from.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52795898530_fb103a6e51_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oroMfA)SONY DSC (https://flic.kr/p/2oroMfA) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Turns out I have enough spare parts to build this prototype. It's held together by tight adjustment, and it's very solid. WOW it's heavy I mean a real brute. I used Gaffer Tape from B&H cut with razor blade to specific widths, and the lens is not going anywhere and it's solidly supported at this point. Light cracks and leaks around the bellows are pretty much plugged up, so the lens appears light tight at this point. I prefer to protype with various tyoes of tape, before making (or have something made) as far as rotating this into the equipment rotation. This was fun to build. If you look in the back of "Castles in Spain" by Reinhart Wolf, you will see this same lens in use, and also set up.

I'm thinking S.K. Grimes to make by their CNC the rear mount, a sort of "reverse mounted top hat" which will forward mount this 1000mm F16 Apo-Ronar. It does have a distinctive wasp shape. Prolly came off of a Process Camera, which I'm quite familiar with. You can do halftone production with the 8x10 Norma, they made special (mullion I think?) holders for offset productions. Can do nice color separations (pin registered) with it too! A Mini Process camera if you wish. With the 8x10 Norma you can adjust the film plane, to use precisely with different types of film holders.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53105229685_2336e43071_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oUJbCn)5x7 TLR Norma 360 Componon Peco Studio Stand (https://flic.kr/p/2oUJbCn) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

This is what I have decided to keep around for 5x7 and 13x18cm, and 4x5/9x12, TLR Sinar Norma. Shown with matched pair 360mm Schneider Componons. Sinar Norma Pan Tilt Head attached to Plaube Peco Studio Camera Stand. Lit by my Broncolor Octobox 150 with Supplemental Diffusion Front. Very soft light like a GIANT movable Window Lighting. 4x6 Foamcore Panel opposite side just off camera for passive fill. This camera I will be using for Fast Action LF Photogrpaphy and LF Portraiture. I have over 20 matched lens pairs to fit this camera, from 90mm to 520mm. With Norma you can put the lens pairs exactly where they need to be. Additionally the front and back standards need to be aligned, I have learned how to do this. Interestingly I have seen Ebay auctions from Hollywood California Glamour Photographers selling off this very camera (several times) so it must have been well used for action head shots many, many times I imagine. This will be fun to use for fashion photography, too.

[Salmo22]

Holy Smokes Daniel! My father would have drooled over such a LF rig. Amazing.


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53105229685_2336e43071_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oUJbCn)5x7 TLR Norma 360 Componon Peco Studio Stand (https://flic.kr/p/2oUJbCn) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

This is what I have decided to keep around for 5x7 and 13x18cm, and 4x5/9x12, TLR Sinar Norma. Shown with matched pair 360mm Schneider Componons. Sinar Norma Pan Tilt Head attached to Plaube Peco Studio Camera Stand. Lit by my Broncolor Octobox 150 with Supplemental Diffusion Front. Very soft light like a GIANT movable Window Lighting. 4x6 Foamcore Panel opposite side just off camera for passive fill. This camera I will be using for Fast Action LF Photogrpaphy and LF Portraiture. I have over 20 matched lens pairs to fit this camera, from 90mm to 520mm. With Norma you can put the lens pairs exactly where they need to be. Additionally the front and back standards need to be aligned, I have learned how to do this. Interestingly I have seen Ebay auctions from Hollywood California Glamour Photographers selling off this very camera (several times) so it must have been well used for action head shots many, many times I imagine. This will be fun to use for fashion photography, too.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52296993295_23e3f5bb89_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nFiL7c)SONY DSC (https://flic.kr/p/2nFiL7c) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

This is my all Sinar Norma Parts "Shorty" 4x5. Tripod inspired by and copied from Julius Shulman's famous book on "Architecural Photography Inside And Out". When I was young i studied this book intensely. The tripod is super lightweight, vibrates a teeny tiny bit, but settles down quickly. I can lift and carry it as is with one hand. With a small soft bag for holders and stuff it's good for outside use. As a 2x3 camera with wind knob Graflex backs it is even more lightweight. So this will be getting some use in the future as I seek a lighter load with Normas.

BTW this is the 75mm F8 Norma Super Angulon focused at infinity. Schneider Center Filter marked "75mm F8 Super Angulon"

Photo Firepower from the '60s.

[Drew Wiley]

That's like a caterpillar with an eyespot on the end opposite to its head, so that the bird doesn't know which end to grab.

[Salmo22]

While I'm not familiar with Shulman's "Architecural Photography Inside And Out", my humble home library has a copy of his book "Julius Shulman: Architecture and Its Photography". Wonderful book by the iconic Shulman.


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52296993295_23e3f5bb89_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nFiL7c)SONY DSC (https://flic.kr/p/2nFiL7c) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

This is my all Sinar Norma Parts "Shorty" 4x5. Tripod inspired by and copied from Julius Shulman's famous book on "Architecural Photography Inside And Out". When I was young i studied this book intensely. The tripod is super lightweight, vibrates a teeny tiny bit, but settles down quickly. I can lift and carry it as is with one hand. With a small soft bag for holders and stuff it's good for outside use. As a 2x3 camera with wind knob Graflex backs it is even more lightweight. So this will be getting some use in the future as I seek a lighter load with Normas.

BTW this is the 75mm F8 Norma Super Angulon focused at infinity. Schneider Center Filter marked "75mm F8 Super Angulon"

Photo Firepower from the '60s.

[Daniel Unkefer]

While I'm not familiar with Shulman's "Architecural Photography Inside And Out", my humble home library has a copy of his book "Julius Shulman: Architecture and Its Photography". Wonderful book by the iconic Shulman.

I found a nice copy of "Julius Shulman: Architecture and It's Photography" and it is a wonderful new book for my home library.

I also have this award winning video. Beautifully made and it stirs my emotions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ourkhC0ixg8

[Salmo22]

Thank you for this reference Daniel. I've sent a few coins Amazon Prime's way and will watch it this evening.




I also have this award winning video. Beautifully made and it stirs my emotions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ourkhC0ixg8

[Daniel Unkefer]

That's like a caterpillar with an eyespot on the end opposite to its head, so that the bird doesn't know which end to grab.

Truly a camera for the Atomic Age!

[Ben Calwell]

What do the thin, stalk-like metal knobs do on the Norma?

[Daniel Unkefer]

There are knobs on the front and back standards, they control the focus micro drives for fine focusing, forward and back.

There are levers on earlier vintage Normas, to lock the focus micro drives. Later vintage Normas don't have the focus micro drive locks.

There are two levers above the focus mechanism, one releases so you can -laterally slide- left and right of axis.

There is another lever there too, which allows you to -swing- the standard also off axis.

There are also small knobs to -raise and lower- the standards. Ball detent when zeroed which is nice.

Norma Instruction Book Here (Later Vintage):

https://www.cameraeccentric.com/static/img/pdfs/sinar_1.pdf

[Ben Calwell]

There are knobs on the front and back standards, they control the focus micro drives for fine focusing, forward and back.

There are levers on earlier vintage Normas, to lock the focus micro drives. Later vintage Normas don't have the focus micro drive locks.

There are two levers above the focus mechanism, one releases so you can -laterally slide- left and right of axis.

There is another lever there too, which allows you to -swing- the standard also off axis.

There are also small knobs to -raise and lower- the standards. Ball detent when zeroed which is nice.

Thank you, Daniel.

[Daniel Unkefer]

138S posted this over on Phototrio. Good Reading..............

"First let me point that Ronar is not a telephoto lens, a telephoto glass has a well shorter FFL than the Focal, as defined in the Kingslake bibles...

The Sinar Norma + Ronar is battle tested setup !!!

Sin título-1.jpg default_wolf_new_york_exc_03_0706111605_id_41553.jpg

...being Reinhart Wolf a remarkable user crafting impressive works with that !

Personally I'm experimenting that with cambo sc, as I lack a sinar 8x10 back...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592977@N05/27823423611/
____

Let me point that Apo Ronars and Claron glasses for graphic work were optimized for close distance. It is possible to optimize those lenses for distant subjects by adding a proper shim in the front cell to increase a bit the inter-cell distance.

Procedure was described in "Internationale Phototechnik" issue 8/1993...

"Focus the center of your ground-glass on fine structures in the distance like leafless trees or high grasses with a strong loupe at wide open aperture.

Shift the rear frame of your camera to the left and the front frame to the right up to the point you can see the structures get blurry.

Unscrew the front group of the lens circa 2 mm (1 line or 0.08 inch) from the shutter or barrel and look for the fine structures, twigs or leafs. Adjust the distance between the front group and the shutter up to the point the structures are as sharp as possible without any coma and blur. Refocus if necessary during the adjustment.

Place a steel or brass shim of the determined thickness between shutter and front group. If the thickness of the shim is the correct one there is no difference in image quality between the center and the edge of distant subjects. For close-up work remove the shim or place a much thinner one."

Additionally when you unscreewed the from cell to its optimal place then you may count the tours (and fraction of a tour) you need to screew again the front cell. If we multiply the number of tours by the thread pitch then we have the thread thickness we need.

That operation mostly optimizes image quality off center, in the corners and mid.

Probably many (or most) long Ronars around have the optimal inter-cell distance for close work, this can be known by checking if the corners in the image improves when the front cell is unscreewed a bit.

For very long focal Ronars that effect should be noticed less as we take more the center of the image circle, still it would be well noticed when shift/rise performed."

[Greg]

Let me point that Apo Ronars and Claron glasses for graphic work were optimized for close distance. It is possible to optimize those lenses for distant subjects by adding a proper shim in the front cell to increase a bit the inter-cell distance.

Many, many years ago remember reading an article (possibly in the rear equipment section of Linhof International Photo Technik magazine) that Repro Claron lenses were also available with shims inserted for optimum focus at infinity. Around 1980 I bought a 210mm Repro Claron from Stu Kay (Lens & Repro) in a shutter that had those shims inserted. As I remember its coverage on 4x5 allowed for limited movements, but the Chromes that I shot with it were amazingly sharp and contrasty. Photographed many waterfalls with it on cloudy days with the images on my Chromes just popping out.

[David Lindquist]

Let me point that Apo Ronars and Claron glasses for graphic work were optimized for close distance. It is possible to optimize those lenses for distant subjects by adding a proper shim in the front cell to increase a bit the inter-cell distance.

Procedure was described in "Internationale Phototechnik" issue 8/1993...

"Focus the center of your ground-glass on fine structures in the distance like leafless trees or high grasses with a strong loupe at wide open aperture.

Shift the rear frame of your camera to the left and the front frame to the right up to the point you can see the structures get blurry.

Unscrew the front group of the lens circa 2 mm (1 line or 0.08 inch) from the shutter or barrel and look for the fine structures, twigs or leafs. Adjust the distance between the front group and the shutter up to the point the structures are as sharp as possible without any coma and blur. Refocus if necessary during the adjustment.

Place a steel or brass shim of the determined thickness between shutter and front group. If the thickness of the shim is the correct one there is no difference in image quality between the center and the edge of distant subjects. For close-up work remove the shim or place a much thinner one."

Additionally when you unscreewed the from cell to its optimal place then you may count the tours (and fraction of a tour) you need to screew again the front cell. If we multiply the number of tours by the thread pitch then we have the thread thickness we need.

That operation mostly optimizes image quality off center, in the corners and mid.

Probably many (or most) long Ronars around have the optimal inter-cell distance for close work, this can be known by checking if the corners in the image improves when the front cell is unscreewed a bit.

For very long focal Ronars that effect should be noticed less as we take more the center of the image circle, still it would be well noticed when shift/rise performed."

Does this article tell you how to go about cutting the shims? Trying to envision a way to do a neat job in the absence of, say, a punch press and a resident tool and die maker to make the custom sized punches.

David

[Conrad . Marvin]

For thicker shims, say .05mm, it might not be so difficult to turn them very easily and accurately on a metal working lathe. The thickness can be adjusted precisely during manufacturing. The thinner the shim, the more difficult it is to accurately produce and I would think one could use a piece of drafting film and a pair of scissors to do a “temporary” adjustment. If you can read a micrometer, you are well on your way.

[r_a_feldman]

Brass shim stock, 3”x6”, 1 each 0.001”, 0.002”, 0.003”, 0.005”, $3.52 at https://www.dickblick.com/items/k-s-metal-sheets-brass-assortment-pkg-of-4/?clicktracking=true&wmcp=pla&wmcid=items&wmckw=61178-8161&country=us&currency=usd&gclid=Cj0KCQjwi7GnBhDXARIsAFLvH4ma2PtavmkiTNmgCyS78kQ6mSax_7CnTnyX2tQbN1_nEJxp5IGepu4aAi_nEALw_wcB

[David Lindquist]

Procuring shim stock is easy enough. Cutting a neat circle with simple tools I think not so much.

David

[Tin Can]

Round Rule Dies

I have a large set and used them for decades with a hammer or press

What diameter and thickness and what material

Also leather belt hole cutter, they are safer for beginners as you won't hit your fingers

[Greg]

Procuring shim stock is easy enough. Cutting a neat circle with simple tools I think not so much.

Picked up a small Craftsman Scroll Saw at a tag sale for under $12.00. Used the thinnest blade that I could find. Double stick tape to secure the brass shim sheet between two very thin sheets of hobby store plywood. Wore a Headband Magnifier and cut very, I mean very, very slowly... maybe 5 minutes per circular cut, no kidding. Final shim may not have looked perfect but it perfectly worked. I'm sure manually cutting with a Jewelers Saw would be even a better way to go.

[David Lindquist]

Thank you Tin Can and Greg, things are starting to look possible...
David