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View Full Version : Pens for marking or numbering film negatives - HABS & HAER guidance 2020.



schafphoto
20-Apr-2020, 00:27
I thought this might be of interest to those people searching for markers to number negatives. I've used many pens doing Historic American Buildings Survey photography. The requirements for marking the rebate edge of the negatives for HABS is:


Label each negative with the photograph number. Use a Rapidograph pen, or other archival pen
designed for use on film that is permanent, smudgeproof, and waterproof. Print the number on
the blank margin of the upper right corner along the edge of the film, as this corner will be
closest to the negative sleeve opening. For negatives with no blank margin, write in the black
margin; the printing can be read when tilted towards the light. Print on the base (shiny) side of
the negative and not on the emulsion (dull) side so that the negative number reads correctly when
the negative is scanned or printed. If the ink does not take to the negative base, carefully erase a
portion of the border with a Staedtler Mars® plastic white vinyl eraser. This usually provides a
surface that will take the ink. --
This is from the latest (January 2020) HDP guidelines: https://www.nps.gov/hdp/standards/Transmittal.pdf (https://www.nps.gov/hdp/standards/Transmittal.pdf)

That said, I hate using Rapidographs! I know some of you like to use them. In my hands, they clog and blotch and I end up with black fingers and smeared negatives because it's not an especially quick-drying approach. I have tried a lot of pens, and I have never needed to "erase a section of the negative to make the ink stick." Here are the pens that work the best for me, I'm interested in your experience too.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49796400501_bbd7df5154_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2iSkyZk)
Pens for HABS-HAER 4x5 film marking test (https://flic.kr/p/2iSkyZk) by Stephen Schafer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/schafphoto/), on Flickr

All of these pens (except the Sharpie) are considered archival "pigment" (and have similar ink to to the refillable Rapidograph engineering pens).These permanent pens qualify under the HABS guidelines because they are made with pigment-based not dye-based inks. I prefer the Faber-Castell ECCO 0.4mm tip and the Faber-Castell Pitt artist pen 'S' size. Staedtler Pigment Liner 0.4mm is also very good. The Staedtler Lumocolor F is not as dense but passable and bit fat for 4x5 negatives. The ZIG and Micron pens just don't have the density of black like the German pens, and they smear more for longer. I have rewashed negatives that were marked with the ECCO and PITT pens and they will wipe off while they are wet but are permanent after the film dries again; if you are careful not to smear the edge while washing. This can be handy if the negatives are incorrectly marked, the negs can be rewetted/rewashed, wiped clean, and remarked when dry... or you can be really careful and mark first and re-wash later.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49795858253_b269297f16_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2iShMNe)
Sample HABS-HAER 4x5 film marking test (https://flic.kr/p/2iShMNe) by Stephen Schafer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/schafphoto/), on Flickr

Here's the samples on an almost clear part of an extra HAER tunnel negative. You can get a good sense of the density differences and why a Sharpie Ultra Fine Point Black pen isn't acceptable. Bottom row is the ECCO pen "double hit" the first 4 words were overwritten after 30 seconds to increase the ink density.

As you can see, the trick is to get a pen tip that is fine enough to write in the tiny film-notch margin area but is not too thick. With thickness comes ink density... but pen-tips over 0.5mm were too thick for my needs, I prefer 0.4mm. Note: Buy two, because I have had identical pens work well, and not so well, depending on their ink flow.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49795855973_897de97802_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2iShM7V)
Smear test for HABS-HAER pens (https://flic.kr/p/2iShM7V) by Stephen Schafer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/schafphoto/), on Flickr

Each pen was used to mark the shiny (non emulsion side) of the negative and then my finger was wiped lightly across the ink at 5, 10 and 30 seconds. It was a warm day and all the pen markings should be left untouched for at least 10 seconds to avoid transfer and smears, but some inks are worse than others. All these were smear-free at 30 seconds.

These archival guidelines matter to the Library of Congress since the negatives in the HABS/HAER/HALS collections are intended to have a life expectancy of 500 years, or until the sun explodes.
We won't be around either way.

-Schaf

Bob Salomon
20-Apr-2020, 02:47
Or,just use the Kaiser Fine Line pens which are permanent, dry instantly and write on any type of film or glass as well as paper, without smudging. Available from most better camera stores.

Steve Goldstein
20-Apr-2020, 11:22
As Schaf said, the Micron and Staedtler pigment liner pens work well for me on both 120 and LF film.

A word of caution to those of you who might, in a moment of weakness, use a 35mm(!) camera - in my experience the Staedtler ink seems to dry very slowly on the 35mm film base. No problem with the Micron. I've encountered this with both Kodak and Ilford black-and-white films, so I'm always careful to use the Micron pen on 35mm.

Bob Salomon
20-Apr-2020, 11:58
Roger,
You weren’t on the Kaiser factory site. You were on the MAC Group site.
Here is the pen:

http://www.kaiser-fototechnik.de/en/produkte/2_1_produktanzeige.asp?nr=2035

Oren Grad
20-Apr-2020, 12:13
Schaf, thanks for starting this thread.

FWIW, I've been using that ZIG pigment pen to annotate the back of RC prints that I've toned for keeping, as pencil doesn't work well at all on the Ilford papers that I mostly use. As you say, it requires some time to dry before it's safe for handling, otherwise works well. But it's very helpful to see these other pigment options identified, and I'll be trying some of them.

There is a non-pigment pen that, unlike the Sharpie, has been formulated with permanence in mind, and which I've been using successfully on RC inkjet prints - the Pilot Ultra Fine Point Permanent Type (SCA-UF). Perhaps that would work on film. But I think I'd still prefer one of the pigment pens for that application.

Alan9940
20-Apr-2020, 12:57
I've been using a Staedtler pigment set for many years for negatives. The set contains tip sizes from 0.05 to 0.8; use mostly the 0.3 and 0.5 for film.

schafphoto
20-Apr-2020, 17:49
Roger,
You weren’t on the Kaiser factory site. You were on the MAC Group site.
Here is the pen:

http://www.kaiser-fototechnik.de/en/produkte/2_1_produktanzeige.asp?nr=2035

I'll have to order a Kaiser CD pen and give it a try. Any idea if it is dye or pigment based? I can't find an MSDS sheet or anything specific except the Kaiser marketing materials.

Bob Salomon
20-Apr-2020, 17:59
I'll have to order a Kaiser CD pen and give it a try. Any idea if it is dye or pigment based? I can't find an MSDS sheet or anything specific except the Kaiser marketing materials.

Check the Gaylord web site. I had that info years ago but have not been involved with them for 5 years now.

bgh
22-Apr-2020, 07:37
This is terrific information, Schaf, thanks so much for doing this! I've had decent luck with the Rapidograph, but I think that I forgot to wash it after the last time, meaning that it is now most likely in rough shape, a costly mistake to make. The F-C or Staedtler pigment pens sound most promising to me.

Thanks again,
Bruce

Ulophot
22-Apr-2020, 08:15
Schaf, much appreciated! Thanks for taking the to do this.

Kirk Gittings
1-Dec-2020, 16:50
FWIW I did my own test as per above. aA bit different results-there must be batch differences. I found the Staedler Pigment Liner and Faber Ecco most opaque so I started labeling a project. I slightly preferred the ECCO and started with that. However in actual use the Ecco dried out quickly between labeling negatives even with the cap on as I was labeling them and then scanning them (on a run of 65 negs). It was a huge PITA and after 10 negs I pitched the ECCO in the trash and finished the rest without problem with the Staedler Pigment Liner. I just ordered some more of the Staedler's to keep in reserve.

6x6TLL
1-Dec-2020, 23:32
I use the Microns, have a few different colors. Will keep an eye out for the others.

Steve Goldstein
2-Dec-2020, 17:08
This is a little off-topic from HABS & HAER, but might be helpful to someone out there.

The Staedler Pigment Liners work great on LF and 120 film, but I've found that the ink doesn't adhere well to 35mm film base and rubs off. Sakura Micron pens seem to work fine on 35mm.

PRJ
3-Dec-2020, 14:43
I use the Pigma Micron as well. Never had an issue with it. I've had the same pen for years and it hasn't dried out.

Alan Klein
3-Dec-2020, 15:19
I write on the plastic archival pages I keep my negatives protected in. Which writing pens are best to write on the page??

I also have a writing pen from Delkin Devices that I've used on my DVD's. What's recommended with DVD's. Could the same pen for the negative archival page be used on the DVD??

Kirk Gittings
3-Dec-2020, 15:55
For HABS, I guess I am always looking for a pen that lays down enough pigment so that I don't have to make a second pass. I find my my second passes always end up a bit off register and looks messy. Maybe I don't wait long enough for the first to fully dry.

6x6TLL
3-Dec-2020, 17:09
I write on the plastic archival pages I keep my negatives protected in. Which writing pens are best to write on the page??

I also have a writing pen from Delkin Devices that I've used on my DVD's. What's recommended with DVD's. Could the same pen for the negative archival page be used on the DVD??

I use the same, the Micron. Works well with both.

Kirk Gittings
5-Dec-2020, 11:36
Another related question is removing the writing if you make a mistake. The only archival solution I know of is Pec-12 cleaning solution and it struggles to remove the Staedler Pigment Liner and leaves a slight ghost image and some residue. As I am writing in the rebate of LF film, the ghost image of my previous writing does not show in the contact print nor does the slight residue of the Pec show-even in light grey cloudless skies. BUT the amount of rubbing with the PEC-12 solution on a Pec tissue to remove the ink rattles my cage a bit.

It definitely works. Any other thoughts.

Bob Salomon
5-Dec-2020, 12:08
Another related question is removing the writing if you make a mistake. The only archival solution I know of is Pec-12 cleaning solution and it struggles to remove the Staedler Pigment Liner and leaves a slight ghost image and some residue. As I am writing in the rebate of LF film, the ghost image of my previous writing does not show in the contact print nor does the slight residue of the Pec show-even in light grey cloudless skies. BUT the amount of rubbing with the PEC-12 solution on a Pec tissue to remove the ink rattles my cage a bit.

It definitely works. Any other thoughts.

Stateler makes an erasing pen that works very well.

Kirk Gittings
5-Dec-2020, 17:04
Stateler makes an erasing pen that works very well.

Reading up on that on their website, as far as I can tell, they seem to be made for erasing non-permanent pigments. They don't seem to make anything to erase the permanent pigment inks.

Bob Salomon
5-Dec-2020, 18:39
Reading up on that on their website, as far as I can tell, they seem to be made for erasing non-permanent pigments. They don't seem to make anything to erase the permanent pigment inks.

We used to distribute them. They erase permanent ink.

Alan Klein
5-Dec-2020, 19:51
Curious. What are you all writing on your film and why?

Kirk Gittings
5-Dec-2020, 19:56
Curious. What are you all writing on your film and why?

HABS/HAER requires a project and negative number to be written on the base side of the film along the top edge in the rebate next to where the code notches are.

6x6TLL
5-Dec-2020, 22:42
Reading up on that on their website, as far as I can tell, they seem to be made for erasing non-permanent pigments. They don't seem to make anything to erase the permanent pigment inks.

Isn't that kind of the point of permanent inks - to be non-removable? Probably want to check at least twice if not thrice before committing anything to writing with one of those...

Or did I miss something?

Kirk Gittings
5-Dec-2020, 22:52
Isn't that kind of the point of permanent inks - to be non-removable? Probably want to check at least twice if not thrice before committing anything to writing with one of those...

Or did I miss something?

Gee thanks for that contribution.