View Full Version : Dealing with dust
I'm slowly coming to the recognition that I have a dust problem.
My time with LF is up to about a year now, and I've learned better routines for loading and unloading film, developing, and using movements thanks to many of the fine folks here (and big shout out to Rod Klukas who's also provided a lot of great info). It's a lot of fun, but there are so many things that can (and do) go wrong compared to medium format, which I've used for decades with never any problems.
As I sit and study my negatives I'm shocked at how many tiny, minuscule squiggles, hairs, lines and dots that appear on each and every one of my photographs. At least the B&W ones. Most of the E6 I have a lab do actually looks pretty clean.
Which leads me to 2 questions:
1. Is dust inevitable? Should I simply accept it as part of the LF lifestyle, and retouch it in post?
2. What can I do to minimize/eliminate dust specks on my negatives? I don't have a darkroom, only a changing bag. But I do own a vacuum, and know how to operate it. How do you keep dust away, or at least to a minimum?
Thanks for the advice and suggestions!
Oslolens
16-Apr-2020, 23:57
Buy a Noritzu bag which you have to raise up with a frame in bottom and hang from the velcro, or a tent, Harrison-type. A changing box will also work.
Big Wehman, Toyo 5x7" and a small Chamonix
Alan9940
17-Apr-2020, 07:48
I don't use a changing bag, but it's not a difficult leap to figure dust could be an issue here. With film holders, I pull the dark slides and vacuum the entire holder (including using a wand to suck air through the slot) and both sides of the dark slides. Then, I carefully and slowly insert the slides part way to load the film. Once loaded, the holders go into Zip lock bags and are removed only for exposure. Negatives are hit with an electric static brush before printing. All that and I still get some dust and other "buggers." If making analog prints, spotting dyes will be your friend; on the desktop, we have the spot healing brush.
Ulophot
17-Apr-2020, 08:00
It depends on where the dust is coming from. Are you giving your film a final bath in distilled water with a wetting agent? Instead, are you wiping it with a squeegee, special sponge or chamois, or other lint-free wiper?
Where are you drying your film? The standard non-darkroom technique is to hang it in a pre-steamed-up (with the shower) bathroom, door closed, no fan on. This can take a while, but the results may dramatically reduce your dust problem.
Peter De Smidt
17-Apr-2020, 08:12
There are lots of threads on this.
Make your film loading and storage space as dust free as possible. Use a Hepa filter. Keep the air from being too dry. Go over holders and surfaces with one of those de-lint tape things, or something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Record-Cleaning-Cleaner-Reusable-Antistatic/dp/B07KVDK5Y7/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=silicone+record+cleaner&qid=1587136153&sr=8-4. Do the inside of holder and dark slide before loading them. Keep holders in a dust proof cloth bag. Plastic bags will likely increase static. Make sure that problems aren't from reusing processing chemicals. Before printing or scanning, make sure everything is clean. I use the silicone rollers on the scanner platen, as well on on the film.
Kevin Crisp
17-Apr-2020, 13:37
Before I load film I up the humidity in the darkroom. It is usually in the 20s and I try to get it at least to 45%. Then after I load a holder, in the dark of course, I pull the darkslide back and let the film get a blast of the output from an Honeywell air filter machine. This has made a huge difference for me. It also helped when I made sure to really clean out the inside of used cameras.
Thanks for all the replies. Many good ideas and suggestions. Let me address them one by one.
This last batch of developing was done last weekend, it was raining here in Los Angeles (i.e. humid), and I hang the films in the bathroom in the shower. No fan or anything like that. All sheets are dunked in a photo-flo bath after rinsing and before being hung up. I don't squeegee or touch the film at all, just a gentle dip and bath in the wetting agent and then straight to hanging to dry, I handle the sheets by the edges and corners only. The developer and fixer were freshly mixed just for that batch, the stop bath was from a previous session but still pretty fresh.
I don't have a darkroom, or even a room I can make dark, nor a changing tent, only a bag. Before I buy a tent ($250 and up), I will thoroughly vacuum the changing bag as well as each film holder and darskslide. Will also look into an anti static brush, and I know I have a few travel sized mini lint rollers I can use for the film holders. Ziplocks sound like a good idea, I'll start putting film holders in them once loaded. What kind of dust-proof cloth bags are recommended?
Nor do I have a scanner (yet), I had a Canon 9950F with Vuescan in Europe that I gave away when I moved to the USA. My son has been taking pictures of the negatives on a light table with a DSLR just so I can get a rough impression, I then inspect them on the light table with a loupe on their own before filing them away. I do try and keep everything clean and dust free.
Hope that covers everything. I'm not sure what a Honeywell Air Filter machine is (I mean, the name does kind of give a big clue, but still), but it needs to fit inside a changing bag (or tent) as I have limited space and no darkroom.
Are the "spots" clear on the film or stuff stuck to it???
Clear means that debris was on the film before exposure (which leaves a clear "shadow" spot behind it), but if you see the debris directly on the dried film, that happened post exposure during processing or drying...
Are the "spots" clear on the film or stuff stuck to it???
Clear means that debris was on the film before exposure (which leaves a clear "shadow" spot behind it), but if you see the debris directly on the dried film, that happened post exposure during processing or drying...
Most of the "spots" are what look like tiny motes of dust at random places on the film. Like tiny particles commonly floating around a room seen in a sunbeam. I would guess that they stuck to the film when I loaded, or were in the holder, and blocked light from hitting the emulsion. The outlines are sharp and crisp, but tiny. All random shapes, mostly lines and squiggles. They have left clear marks in the film. I.e. no exposure where the speck of dust was.
I do not see any debris stuck to the film, no. I did have an issue when two sheets were hanging slightly too close to each other and ended up sticking together, which left a mark even when re-rinsed and separated. I'm still learning, and it was nothing critical. That's why I'm using this film to test and learn before going back to Velvia and Tri-X, having burned off far too many sheets already. That said, I have also gotten some really nice shots.
A few of the previous batch had mottled skies, which I believe was slightly too little developer in the tank. I've since increased the amount to 1200ml and it seems to have taken care of the issue. There are another 12 sheets awaiting development for this weekend.
I also just discovered that Foma/Arista EDU 100 and 200 puts their notch codes on backwards, so that when the notch is upper right in the film holder, the emulsion is actually facing down towards the holders, not up towards the camera lens. I don't know if this is consistent across all batches, or only on the one I have now. I plan on loading a few holders "backwards" to compare and see how things look.
I was wrong about this part.
Debris on film pre-exposure leaves clear spots under the debris, because they don't allow light to hit the film there...
Debris on film happen during processing, and stick on the film...
Steve K
If you are still not sure if the code notch is wrong, take out one sheet to the light and the lighter side is emulsion and dark side back...Notch should be in upper right corner with emulsion towards you... If not, bring back to Freestyle for exchange (they have a return policy if not happy)...
But I doubt there's a problem with it...
Steve K
John Berry
18-Apr-2020, 01:48
At home I turn on an ion generator 20-30 min before loading. Drops dust like a lead ballon.
Let me say gentlemen some bulletproof advices about clean air. This is essential for everyone who involved in the film photography.
1. You should have a source of compressed clean air. Think a dental compressor like apollo dental etc. Depending of what you buyed, you can also add 1 ot 2 air filters for further safety. You should not touch with a hands or cloth your lenses or film from now on.
1. You should have a clean air in the room. The filter should be the best. Cheap filters don't work at all. IQAir Breeth can give you that purity, when you dont have a dust on your shelves for five years. Imagine it. Invest in it.
2. You can increase safety by adding ionisation in air. But ozone is harming, so do it locally and not all the time.
Biggest help to me is to keep film holders clean. I use plastic antistatic bags (meant for electronics) Normally plastic bags tend to attract dust but at least they don't give off dust like a paper or fabric. Antistatic bags have a coating that neutralizes static. Keep the film holder bagged at all times except for loading/exposing/unloading. The bags are reusable many times.
202769
https://www.honeywellstore.com/store/products/honeywell-portable-hepaclean-tabletop-air-purifier-hht270w.htm
is a newer version of the air cleaner I leave running in my darkroom. A clean place to load unload and dry film is helpful.
Drew Bedo
18-Apr-2020, 07:59
Dust indeed. Everything in LF is "open"; the sheet of film is exposed to the interior volume of the camera at every exposure, oftenfor quite a bit of time. Eaxh sheet of film is manually handled multiple times before development is finished and the image printed or scanned. In 35mm film photography, the film may never be touched through final development. Digital imaging is even more "steril" to dust.
Not much helpful advice here . . .sorry.
jose angel
18-Apr-2020, 09:19
I think dust is not a problem at all... as long as you keep things reasonably clean, cameras, shelves, camera bags, floors, cabinets, etc. If so, of course there will be always dust around, but in "reasonably" low quantities. As mentioned above, keep holders -I also keep the lenses- inside zipped plastic bags.
Also, notice that canned air is great for some tasks but not for others... so it moves dust from one place to another.
The main problem come from sources that are dust magnets and hard to clean; some camera bellows are synthetic with a cloth inner surface that catch dust, so it can store huge amounts of it. Any bellows suctions air when being extended, so they attract dust inside. Just clean it with a vacuum cleaner and a soft brush suction noozle, it makes wonders. Or use a soft hand brush with the vacuum to help to remove the dust, sometimes a flat nozzle is not enough.
Another typical problem are certain changing bags, also with velvet alike imaterial inside, I bet this is your problem. There is a well known manufacturer that sell very fine changing bags but with that wrong material inside. I bought one time ago (expensive), and found it to be almost useless... the material itself release tiny fibers that adheres directly to the film at the loading stage, ruining every holder. My cheap manufacture changing bags are very low quality in comparison, but much better in use.
The next problem use to happen while hanging the wet film to dry, here you should keep the film on a clean area and not to move the air too much around.
With this points on mind, my negatives come out *almost* free of dust.
Bertha DeCool
18-Apr-2020, 11:28
I have a variety of 5x7 holders and I've found the older wooden ones to be static-free, which is logical I suppose.
Biggest help to me is to keep film holders clean. I use plastic antistatic bags (meant for electronics)
Really good advice, thank you very much
don't deal with the cheap filters, buy expensive IQAir Breeth, you will be amazed how good it works for the entire room
this really eliminates the problem, you can even leave the film drying
you can use dylos air quality monitor to control
clean all - all the equipment with 8atm compressed air
You're right Steve, there was no problem with the film, only with my expectation. Normally I find the emulsion side to look slightly dull or matte compared to the "back" side of the film. With slide film it's super easy, you can actually see the layers built up on the film base, and most B&W is pretty straightforward to tell the difference too.
This particular emulsion shows as the opposite, the glossy, super slick side is in fact the emulsion, and the rough, matte side is the back of the film.
Lesson learned.
If you are still not sure if the code notch is wrong, take out one sheet to the light and the lighter side is emulsion and dark side back...Notch should be in upper right corner with emulsion towards you... If not, bring back to Freestyle for exchange (they have a return policy if not happy)...
But I doubt there's a problem with it...
Steve K
Biggest help to me is to keep film holders clean. I use plastic antistatic bags (meant for electronics) Normally plastic bags tend to attract dust but at least they don't give off dust like a paper or fabric. Antistatic bags have a coating that neutralizes static. Keep the film holder bagged at all times except for loading/exposing/unloading. The bags are reusable many times.
I just got back from the store with a box of 1l Zip-lock baggies. Do you have a source for the anti-static ones? Those make a lot of sense.
You're right Steve, there was no problem with the film, only with my expectation. Normally I find the emulsion side to look slightly dull or matte compared to the "back" side of the film. With slide film it's super easy, you can actually see the layers built up on the film base, and most B&W is pretty straightforward to tell the difference too.
This particular emulsion shows as the opposite, the glossy, super slick side is in fact the emulsion, and the rough, matte side is the back of the film.
Lesson learned.
Some sheet films had a matte base surface to allow pencil returning on it as the surface has a "tooth" to hold pencil lead...
Steve K
Do you have a source for the anti-static ones? Those make a lot of sense.
Ebay, Uline (if you need several lifetimes supply)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Static-Dissipative-ESD-Bag-Pink-Poly-Zip-Lock-4Mil-Reclosable-2x-3-5-6-8-9-12/353044621891?hash=item5233196a43:m:mZiA3of3XSyA-xN3WRC3G2A
https://www.uline.com/BL_7852/Uline-Anti-Static-Reclosable-Bags
Another thing to mention is color films tend to show dust slightly less than B/W, probably due to a slight diffusion inherent in the emulsions...
A practice of cleaning everything that is near film or handling pays off...As mentioned, a clean shop vac with additional filter and a brush attachment to clean everything once in a while helps a lot... (Inside cameras, holders, changing bags, film boxes, cases, bags, focusing cloths, etc everything...) This removes coarse dust/lint but be careful the vac does not spread the dust back into the air... I find using the drywall dust bags for my vac work well enough, but also have a smaller computer vac to do holders before loading... Holders go right into anti-stat bags, and don't leave holders laying around...
Before shooting, I use a air blower bulb to blow dust away from front of holder, blowing away from the edges toward the center upside down so new dust falls away, so when slide is pulled, it does not release dust near film...
The routine works...
Steve K
Alan Klein
18-Apr-2020, 16:55
I think dust is not a problem at all... as long as you keep things reasonably clean, cameras, shelves, camera bags, floors, cabinets, etc. If so, of course there will be always dust around, but in "reasonably" low quantities. As mentioned above, keep holders -I also keep the lenses- inside zipped plastic bags.
Also, notice that canned air is great for some tasks but not for others... so it moves dust from one place to another.
The main problem come from sources that are dust magnets and hard to clean; some camera bellows are synthetic with a cloth inner surface that catch dust, so it can store huge amounts of it. Any bellows suctions air when being extended, so they attract dust inside. Just clean it with a vacuum cleaner and a soft brush suction noozle, it makes wonders. Or use a soft hand brush with the vacuum to help to remove the dust, sometimes a flat nozzle is not enough.
Another typical problem are certain changing bags, also with velvet alike imaterial inside, I bet this is your problem. There is a well known manufacturer that sell very fine changing bags but with that wrong material inside. I bought one time ago (expensive), and found it to be almost useless... the material itself release tiny fibers that adheres directly to the film at the loading stage, ruining every holder. My cheap manufacture changing bags are very low quality in comparison, but much better in use.
The next problem use to happen while hanging the wet film to dry, here you should keep the film on a clean area and not to move the air too much around.
With this points on mind, my negatives come out *almost* free of dust.
I have a Harrison medium size film changing tent. Is this the one that has the material that attaacts dust? How do you all clean the inside of tents?
Old_Dick
18-Apr-2020, 17:18
JP is right on. Anti-static bags work well. Uline has several products for cleanrooms that will help with your darkroom. The reason you have dust in your darkroom is because you bring it in. A clean lab coat, hair net, shoes will help keep your area clean. I believe we had rayon outfits. Uline has a sticky mat that you walk on as you walk in to your darkroom.
Like the others said, filters, static control and humidity will help with your sanity.
I retired from a company that made "steppers" used to make small flat panels displays , "precisione photolithography". All done in a cleanroom under bright yellow lights. We used a condenser and a $1,000,000 piece of glass on 17 inches of granite, fun time.
Kevin Crisp
18-Apr-2020, 17:32
Honeywell air filters...
https://www.honeywellstore.com/store/category/air-purifiers.htm
Well, I will try Ziplock bags for now and see if they help. The changing bag will be vacuumed and I will clean each film holder thoroughly and remove any speck of dust before packing them in plastic. I can also vacuum the inside of the bellows of my camera, I believe they are leather.
Hopefully that will help bring the specks on my negs under control. I should know in a week or two.
Thanks for all the suggestions and advice, I truly appreciate it.
Ebay, Uline (if you need several lifetimes supply)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Static-Dissipative-ESD-Bag-Pink-Poly-Zip-Lock-4Mil-Reclosable-2x-3-5-6-8-9-12/353044621891?hash=item5233196a43:m:mZiA3of3XSyA-xN3WRC3G2A
https://www.uline.com/BL_7852/Uline-Anti-Static-Reclosable-Bags
Are you using 6"x8" or 6"x9" sized bags? My holders (Toyo and Fidelity) measure close to 8" in length, not sure if the thickness of the holder would interfere with closing the bag.
Are you using 6"x8" or 6"x9" sized bags? My holders (Toyo and Fidelity) measure close to 8" in length, not sure if the thickness of the holder would interfere with closing the bag.
Mine are about twice as big as the film holder because that was what was on sale when I was shopping a few years ago. I just fold the excess over.
I put about 4 or 5 4X5 holders into a large bag, and the exposed holders into another bag as I shoot...
Steve K
Joe O'Hara
18-Apr-2020, 19:27
Assuming that the problem is dust spots that print black (I'm a bit confused as this point in the actual complaint), that happens when and only when dust is on the film when it is exposed. The problem is not in the processing.
The solution is to not let this happen. Changing bags or tents are troublesome in my experience. I load my film holders in a not particularly well environmentally-controlled darkroom. I had major problems with dust on the film until I got some canned air and (1) thoroughly blasted out every little nook and cranny, inside and out, in my film holders, and (2) most importantly, after I slipped the new sheet of film into the holder, opened the slide up all the way and gave the film one quick shot with the canned air, and then closed the slide. Result: No more dust spots for three years. It's amazing how much dust can get on a sheet of film moving from the box into the film holder, and it always seems to end up in the sky or in the still water.
This could probably done in a changing tent as well, but perhaps not as reliably. Perhaps you have access to a windowless half-bath or such that can be made light-tight for a couple of minutes, and do it on a countertop, as I did for years.
Hey Joe,
it's not so much a complaint as an observation.
I haven't printed anything yet. Looking at the negatives under a loupe on a light table reveals small white squiggly lines at random places on the negatives, looks a lot like dust to me. Quite small when viewing with the naked eye, but more obvious when enlarged. I agree that it appears as if something (dust) blocked the light from striking the emulsion at those places. Development seems much better than before, which is positive.
Yes, as everyone has pointed out, cleanliness is next to Godliness. Or at least will help minimize specks on my negatives.
Unfortunately (?) the consequences of architectural choices made among the beach communities of SoCal a few decades ago entail that there is not a single room in the house that doesn't have a window. So, no darkroom, which is why I've been using a changing bag (which, anecdotally, has performed flawlessly for 120 film loading onto reels and into developing tanks), but it is a bit restricted when working with 4x5. As much as I've been trying to avoid spending money to solve problems, this might be a problem that needs a little bit of money spent. Maybe a changing tent would make a significant difference. And anti-static bags.
I like your site by the way, really nice work.
Assuming that the problem is dust spots that print black (I'm a bit confused as this point in the actual complaint), that happens when and only when dust is on the film when it is exposed. The problem is not in the processing.
The solution is to not let this happen. Changing bags or tents are troublesome in my experience. I load my film holders in a not particularly well environmentally-controlled darkroom. I had major problems with dust on the film until I got some canned air and (1) thoroughly blasted out every little nook and cranny, inside and out, in my film holders, and (2) most importantly, after I slipped the new sheet of film into the holder, opened the slide up all the way and gave the film one quick shot with the canned air, and then closed the slide. Result: No more dust spots for three years. It's amazing how much dust can get on a sheet of film moving from the box into the film holder, and it always seems to end up in the sky or in the still water.
This could probably done in a changing tent as well, but perhaps not as reliably. Perhaps you have access to a windowless half-bath or such that can be made light-tight for a couple of minutes, and do it on a countertop, as I did for years.
jose angel
19-Apr-2020, 11:47
I have a Harrison medium size film changing tent. Is this the one that has the material that attaacts dust? How do you all clean the inside of tents?
No, I use changing bags, no tents.
I have a Harrison medium size film changing tent. Is this the one that has the material that attaacts dust? How do you all clean the inside of tents?
I use shop vac with drywall dust collection bag, and a brush attachment... A wipe down with a clean, damp microfiber cloth before loading should help...
Steve K
Alan Klein
19-Apr-2020, 19:38
Thanks Jose and Steve. I have a central vac in my house which should be good because the collection filter bag, electric motor, and canister is in another room (actually the garage). So it won't be creating dust like a regular vacuum cleaner.
C. D. Keth
19-Apr-2020, 20:09
Another pretty easy layer of dust protection to add onto everything already said: I bought a whole bunch of anti-static bags from an electronics store that was going out of business. They’re the kind that new computer boards, video cards, etc. are packed in from the factory. I keep my film holders in those bags. I can get several 4x5 per bag or a couple 8x10 and there’s enough excess bag to make a big fold over and tape shut.
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