5 x 7 film holder confusion

[Bauie]

I've come across a seller that is advertising 5x7 holders. He says the holders have the following stamped on them. "12 x 16.5cm"
Ilford 5x7 paper says it is 12.7cm x 17.8cm (Ilford 5x7 film does not give a metric measurement)
If I convert 5 x 7 to metric it is 12.7 x 17.8
So what film does a 12 x 16.5 holder actually take?

[Andrew Plume]

Hi

12 x 16.5 is the old 'British half plate size', which is the smallest of the three sizes after 5 x 7 and 13 x 18. 'Modern' 5 x 7 Cameras will 'accept' film holders for all of these, btw, the outer dimension is the same, it's the inner dimension that differs

regards

Andrew

[Andrew Plume]

And again

If you are looking for film in the Half Plate size, Foma have this in 100 speed:

https://www.processuk.net/Fomapan_100_65_x475__12_plate_50sh/p740597_18818484.aspx

and Ilford also produce this as part of their 'Annual run' for 'unusual sizes, but owing to the current viral problem, I'm not sure whether they will be making that run this year

Good luck

Andrew

[Nodda Duma]

Definitely half plate size.

Cheers,
Jason

[tdicorcia]

Note that 4.75-inch x 6.5-inch (121mm x 165mm) was also a format used in Japan. It was a common format for Japanese wooden field cameras, as well as a common back size for the Rittreck View and the TOYO Field 4 3/4 x 6 1/2 "Sakai Special." These are the nominal sizes, of course. The half-plate size is odd in that one would expect it to be 4.25-inch x 6.5-inch (half of a 6.5-inch x 8.5-inch whole plate).

[tdicorcia]

Jason,
I'm curious that the tech tips page at pictoriographica.com says that your half-plate glass plates are nominally 4.5-inch x 6.5-inch (113 x 164 mm actual). http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Plate_sizes says that was called "cabinet size."
Tom

[Jimi]

All the Fidelity non-5x7" holders I have seen have been marked in white (6.5X4.75". 12x16.5 cm and 13x18 cm). I've gotten all of them advertised as 5x7.

The 5x7" ones only have a small, hard to see moulding in the plastic, right under the darkslide (says "5x7 Fidelity cut film holder" and the information about where they where made and by whom).This makes it extra confusing since the non-5x7 holders actually have two markings. Even the new 13x18 Fidelity Elite holders bought more than ten years ago has the same oddity - probably no point in making a separate moulding part for each of the formats.

[Nodda Duma]

Jason,
I'm curious that the tech tips page at pictoriographica.com says that your half-plate glass plates are nominally 4.5-inch x 6.5-inch (113 x 164 mm actual). http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Plate_sizes says that was called "cabinet size."
Tom

It’s a compromise: that size will fit both cabinet size and glass half plate holders. Those two seem to be the most common (120x165 being more common), and I’ve never had anyone ask specifically for a “cabinet size” vs simply asking for half plate... when I enquire further, it’s a toss-up whether the answer comes back one or the other set of dimensions. So I cut to fit both.

Never had half plates returned, so seems to be the right approach.

-Jason

[Bauie]

Thanks for the answers but I'm still not clear, will these holders marked "12 x 16.5cm" accept standard Ilford 5x7 film?

[Andrew Plume]

Many thanks - no, sorry on the face of it, probably they will not, you'll need specific Half Plate film (and in that size). However, I suggest that you measure the inner section for confirmation. I have some more recent 'Fidelity Elite holders' and the exact size is 171 x 123

regards

Andrew

[Huub]

Thanks for the answers but I'm still not clear, will these holders marked "12 x 16.5cm" accept standard Ilford 5x7 film?

The easiest way to find out is to cut a sheet of paper of the size of 5x7 film - which should be 125x175 millimeters and which is actually a tiny bit smaller then exactly 5x7 inch - and try to put it in the cassette. When the paper fits, the film will fit too. And when it doesn't....

[Andrew Plume]

AND FWIW

I have to say that when I bought my first 5 x 7 Camera and discussed film holders with the (reputable seller), I was totally confused - it was only
when I'd bought some 13 x 18 holders (in addition to the existing 5 x 7 one's) that I was able to get a handle on this

good luck and regards to the OP (and everyone else on here)

Andrew

[Ron (Netherlands)]

I have some more recent 'Fidelity Elite holders' and the exact size is 171 x 123


So that wouldn't fit 12,7mm which is the width of the 5x7" film.....
but of course half plate film sheats would fit a 5x7 filmholder - just to add to the confusion
but I guess the op was actually asking whether 5x7 film would fit a half plate holder (or half plate film sheat), and it would not.

[Bauie]

The easiest way to find out is to cut a sheet of paper of the size of 5x7 film - which should be 125x175 millimeters and which is actually a tiny bit smaller then exactly 5x7 inch - and try to put it in the cassette. When the paper fits, the film will fit too. And when it doesn't....

Logistically that would be challenging as I'm in Australia and the film holders are in the US! If I had the film holders in front of me I'd just try to put a sheet in.

[Barry Kirsten]

I'm glad I found this thread because I really need to know the main dimensions of 5x7 film holders. I'm building a 5x7 camera and am currently working on the rear standard. I really thought I had everything covered as i have a couple of plastic Fidelity half plate holders which I was assured by the person I got them from that they were the *exact* external dimensions of true 5x7 holders. In addition I've downloaded the ANSI standards for film holders and find that the ANSI sizes for 5x7 are different from the two I have in front of me.

I know there's been a lot of discussion here over the years about film holder sizes and that there's a lot of confusion (and variation?), but it would help me if I can get some consensus from actual users of 5x7 of the dimensions of your own film holders. Particularly exact thickness, width, overall length, length from bottom to sealing rib, and depth from front to septum.

It occurred to me that I should buy some from eBay or whatever, but with the lockdown I don't know how long that would take. Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[aclark]

I'm glad I found this thread because I really need to know the main dimensions of 5x7 film holders. I'm building a 5x7 camera and am currently working on the rear standard. I really thought I had everything covered as i have a couple of plastic Fidelity half plate holders which I was assured by the person I got them from that they were the *exact* external dimensions of true 5x7 holders. In addition I've downloaded the ANSI standards for film holders and find that the ANSI sizes for 5x7 are different from the two I have in front of me.

I know there's been a lot of discussion here over the years about film holder sizes and that there's a lot of confusion (and variation?), but it would help me if I can get some consensus from actual users of 5x7 of the dimensions of your own film holders. Particularly exact thickness, width, overall length, length from bottom to sealing rib, and depth from front to septum.

It occurred to me that I should buy some from eBay or whatever, but with the lockdown I don't know how long that would take. Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Hello Barry, here are the measurements of one of my newish Fidelity Elite 5x7 holders.

Thickness 12.6mm
Width 149.5mm
Overall length 225mm
Length from hinged end to start of sealing rib 191.5mm
Sealing rib is 2mm wide.

Depth from front to septum can't tell you at the moment as all my holders have film in them!

Hope this helps,

Alan

[Barry Kirsten]

Thanks Alan, that's a great help. My Fidelity Deluxe Half Plate holders are identical to 5x7 as I was told, so I can go ahead and build the camera back to suit. Would you mind also checking the image height and width on yours for me please? I've learnt that you can't rely on the published ANSI standards - or maybe manufacturers make their own. Many thanks again.

Barry

[aclark]

Barry,
image height is 123mm. Image width is 170mm. Image area starts 17.5mm in from the outer edge of the hinged end.

Alan

[aclark]

Barry, the measurements I have just given you above are the dimensions of the opening in the film holder. For some reason the image size on the negative is smaller - 120mm by 169mm. Can't check this out properly because, as stated earlier, my holders all have unexposed film in them.

Alan

[Barry Kirsten]

Thanks again, Alan. I will eventually get some proper 5x7 holders, which would be ideal to have so that I can make the back to fit the actual holders I have on hand. With the economic hit to the economy of this Corona virus I would prefer to buy locally, and have asked on the Australian LF forum, without success. My plan B is to seek help from others like your good self.

The difference between film holder opening size and actual image size would be due to the internal guides that the film slides under. I had forgotten about these when I asked about image size. I wanted to know the opening size, which you gave me any way. Many thanks again, Alan. Enjoy your Spring and the coming Summer in 'God's Own Country'.

[aclark]

Barry, I agree it would be most practical to have an actual film holder when making the camera back, but understand your current problems. Good luck building the camera. I've made a few myself over the years. Great fun. And you have the choice of some great Australian woods to choose from.

Alan

[Barry Kirsten]

Hi Alan, it turns out that my two half plate Fidelity holders are in every external dimension identical to your 5x7 Fidelity holders. The differences are all internal and are to do with the guides that hold the film. This allows the one type of holder to accommodate different film sizes. So 5x7, half plate and I expect 13x18 metric holders would all be identical in outside dimensions. I feel I can now continue with confidence and finish the rear. So much for the published ANSI sizes for 5x7 holders! Yes there are some lovely Australian timbers and I have used some of them with much pleasure in the past. For this camera I'm using Huon Pine from Tasmania. It's a wonderful wood and has been used for many years for fine furniture and boat building. Using it for a LF camera goes against conventional wisdom of using hard, dense timbers like teak, cherry, walnut or even ebony, but I like calculated risks and I think this will work. Thanks again for your great help.

Barry

[Jimi]

So 5x7, half plate and I expect 13x18 metric holders would all be identical in outside dimensions.

Yes, that is the main takeaway - the outer dimensions are the same for all of these holders, while the inner dimensions differ, and those differences are marked with the according size in white, at least on the plastic holders I have encountered. Thus the general confusion.

Wooden ones are perhaps the same, but I can't say for sure.

[Barry Kirsten]

Jimi, what I (and others) found confusing was the published ANSI standard for 5x7 holders - they are so different from the actual sizes of available holders. I was prepared to follow the published ANSI measurements, but got wise in time to avert a disaster and decided to find out sizes of actual holders.

[Jimi]

As I have never read the ANSI, I am only speaking from my (limited practical) experience, so I wasn't aware that the various holders differ from that standard. It seems to me there are several levels of confusion here, which makes it even more confusing. :)