Rodinol to D 23

[Tin Can]

I am switching film developers for the first time in 8 years

I will still use Rodinol, but decided to add D 23 asap

2 very influential members here use it

I believe one is Jim Noel, always a stable voice

The other is Ken Lee who provides direction on his website. http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/tech/D-23.php

His images show truth

Thank you both

[Kiwi7475]

Interesting. What precipitated this after 8 years? Is it related to Rodinol or the believe that D23 will be better (tonality, less grain)? Or economy of the developer?

[Alan9940]

D-23 is a marvelous and simple to make developer. It has produced wonderful negs with every film stock I've tossed at it! Enjoy!

[mdarnton]

I use D23 with xray film and have used it with 35mm Tri-X several times in the past. If it has a shortcoming for normal film, it's a lack of highlight contrast. I seem to remember that the two-bath version doesn't have that problem, with results that are more similar to D76. Otherwise, it's very convenient to use and a nice developer without the golfball grain and empty shadows of Rodinal, which I never liked at all.

[Jim Noel]

There are several advantages when using D-23. A short list includes:
- Undiluted and un-contaminated lasts for a very long time. My current bottle was mixed in November 2018.
- heavily used stock D-23 can be used to add silver density to thin negatives
- it's very cheap
- Very useful with a water bath to control high contrast situations
- a simple formula which quite likely is the least dangerous developer in common use
- negatives developed in this yield beautifully to toning for increase contrast
- if diluted it is slow acting enough to be a very good one for use with high contrast films including lith
That is all I can think of at the moment.
Stay healthy and do something photographic every day.

[Ken Lee]

In the limited BTZS testing I performed, the film speed and contrast curves with D-23 1:1 were very similar to those of other popular developers like D-76 and Pyrocat HD.

If we enlarge small negatives, employ special development techniques, shoot under extreme lighting or print under UV, our choice of developer can make a big difference.

Otherwise, we are free to consider secondary factors like convenience, cost, toxicity, simplicity of formula and preparation, etc.

[Tin Can]

Yes, I wanted low cost, simplicity, cheapest source was B+H today, I checked them all

I will be making UVA prints soon and learn what works

I like Rodinol, as it is also cheap and very quick to mix

But bottles do go quickly even at 1/100 with big negs

Large X-Ray I have used Ilford PQ 1-19

Thank you and Jim!

[Kiwi7475]

Yes, I wanted low cost, simplicity, cheapest source was B+H today, I checked them all

I will be making UVA prints soon and learn what works

I like Rodinol, as it is also cheap and very quick to mix

But bottles do go quickly even at 1/100 with big negs

Large X-Ray I have used Ilford PQ 1-19

Thank you and Jim!

You are buying D23 by photographers formulary from B&H? If you buy the two chemicals from aircraftchemicals it costs 44cents to develop an 8x10 sheet (500 ml). That’s treefiddy for 4L. B&H sells 4L of PF’s D23 for $19.95.

[Peter De Smidt]

Yeah, just buy the constituents. It's so cheap and easy to mix.

Jim, do you mean it stores a long time, or do use it replentished?

I plan to follow Michael's practice and use it to develop xray film in hangers.

[David Schaller]

I just mixed some up the other day from Artcraft chemicals. The hard part might be finding distilled water!

[Kiwi7475]

I just mixed some up the other day from Artcraft chemicals. The hard part might be finding distilled water!

Not hard to distill water at home....

https://home.howstuffworks.com/green-living/how-to-make-distilled-water.htm

[Tin Can]

I bought the 2 chems, plenty of it. I have 30 gallons distilled and starting rain collection.




You are buying D23 by photographers formulary from B&H? If you buy the two chemicals from aircraftchemicals it costs 44cents to develop an 8x10 sheet (500 ml). That’s treefiddy for 4L. B&H sells 4L of PF’s D23 for $19.95.

[David Schaller]

Not hard to distill water at home....

https://home.howstuffworks.com/green-living/how-to-make-distilled-water.htm
Thanks, if I get desperate.... But I’m hoping that the supermarket will get restocked.

[Jim Noel]

I have never worried about distilled water for D-23.
If tap water is dirty, filter through a coffee filter

[Jim Noel]

Yeah, just buy the constituents. It's so cheap and easy to mix.

Jim, do you mean it stores a long time, or do use it replentished?

I plan to follow Michael's practice and use it to develop xray film in hangers.
I have never replenished it. It is great with x-ray film.

[Peter De Smidt]

Thanks, Jim.

[Tin Can]

Perhaps the question is. What is the reuse duration of D 23?

Ilford PQ at 1/9 is reusable on prints for a while. At 1/19 on film I one shot it, meaning one use and dump.

Rodinal stops working after 20 minutes and is definitely 'one shot'

If a print does not develop we make another, film is one chance


I have never replenished it. It is great with x-ray film.

[Bernard_L]

starting rain collection
Rainwater is not so "pure".
It is loaded with the dust & aerosols collected in the atmosphere. Which is why the air is so pure after a rainfall.
It is loaded and acidic with atmospheric CO2, which is how limestone is etched away in karstic landscapes.

[Tin Can]

I am aware

Rain water is still valuable for many uses

Here I now get 46" a year, collecting it will be easy, storage is the problem

Gravity toilet comes to mind, which works even without city water, which often fails here

I also plan to filter it and distill small amounts


Rainwater is not so "pure".
It is loaded with the dust & aerosols collected in the atmosphere. Which is why the air is so pure after a rainfall.
It is loaded and acidic with atmospheric CO2, which is how limestone is etched away in karstic landscapes.

[HMG]

Interesting.

What's the logic for needing distilled water (noting that Jim Noel doesn't use distilled water)? I'll admit I use distilled water for mixing powder developers but I do that more out of "an abundance of caution" rather than knowledge.

And, if your water source is not as clean as tap water, would a water filter such as this (https://sawyer.com/products/mini-filter/) be helpful? These have been converted to gravity filters so, while slow, no pumping or squeezing.

Ken Lee's page describes D-23 as slower acting than D-76 due to the lack of Hyrdoquinone. But then says "Developing times for D-23 are similar to those of D-76". Is this an inconsistency or am I not giving enough weight to "similar"?

Finally, does sodium sulfite (powder) have a shelf life?

[mdarnton]

Relative to shelf life, I have wandered away from mixing my own and come back several times, so I have used both metol and sodium sulfite that are pushing 30 years old, no problem. With water, I *believe* consistency is more important than purity. . .at least that has been my experience when moving from place to place. I have always used the local tap water.

I might mention that I I use D23 for xray diluted 1:7, and it does not go bad in a sealed tank, however it doesn't do a lot of sheets at that dilution so I usually mix fresh for that reason. You can buy sulfite in 20 pound lots dirt cheap.

[Ken Lee]

Ken Lee's page describes D-23 as slower acting than D-76 due to the lack of Hyrdoquinone. But then says "Developing times for D-23 are similar to those of D-76". Is this an inconsistency or am I not giving enough weight to "similar"?

An excellent observation - I have removed that ambiguity. I now simply share Stephen Anchell's discussion (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/tech/D-23.php#TechnicalDiscussion) of D-23 which includes the topic of Superadditivity.

I am not a champion of D-23. I'm just a user who shares information: some quotes and a link to The Darkroom Cookbook (https://www.amazon.com/Darkroom-Cookbook-v-1/dp/0240801962). Readers can always investigate further if they are interested.

Some might find it interesting to read a thread on Photrio which discusses the close similarity between D-23, Microdol-X and Perceptol. See https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kodak-d-23-developer.28994/ (https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kodak-d-23-developer.28994/)

Apparently a dash of salt is the only difference. Of course, with Chemistry only a dash of this or that can make a huge difference: does that dash of salt provide better storage life ? sharpness ? acutance ? tonality ? Or does it merely change the formula for the purposes of intellectual property ? Who can say :rolleyes:

[Tin Can]

HGM I have a filter like that that is only for a REAL emergency...

Michael, I bought 1 lb of Metol with 5 lb SS, more will be obtained in bulk

Ken Lee allows for self determinable variables, I really admire his website tutorials and images

Supply and delivery of anything may break down soon

I was a CUB, BOY and EXPLORER Scout. The last leader had no children, was very wealthy and took us on all kinds of adventures. He was even the wrong religion...Great man, I remember him well.

Be Prepared

[Hans Berkhout]

Over the years I have used Promicrol, Rodinal, HC110 and for the last 15 years D23. With D23 you have control, you know what you get. No changes of availability, manufacturer, bottle size, formula etc.
It's not as sharp as for instance HC110 but that is fine with me, the modern lenses I use are sharp enough, no need for steel wool character of the image. Film speed a bit better that Rodinal.
One can use a scale (which I do) or scoop formula. For consistency use of distilled water makes sense.
I mix a gallon (4 liters), divide in liter and/or 125ml bottles. Top up with distilled water, cover bottle opening with saran wrap, then cap. Discard after 6 months, thereafter is on your own risk (but pretty safe)
With a new developer (or film) batch I add a zone 1 and a zone 8 exposure to the batch I'm working on, for quality control, fine tuning.

I dilute 1:1, dev. time at 24C around 8.5 minutes in manual inversion tank. No personal experience with tabular grain film.

[Tin Can]

Hans, good advice

I have scales and will check scoops until I know

Thank you

[esearing]

And since you now have Metol you can also look at making Pyrocat M for a staining developer.

[Ulophot]

Hans, I like your "steel wool character" -- excellent metaphor, at least for this portraitist, for whom ultimate sharpness is not a matter of concern.

[John Berry]

If you'r thinking you need to waterbath. D23 might do the job. Great for high contrast shots. Reduces burn in the top end.

[Joe O'Hara]

[snip]

I might mention that I I use D23 for xray diluted 1:7, and it does not go bad in a sealed tank, however it doesn't do a lot of sheets at that dilution so I usually mix fresh for that reason. You can buy sulfite in 20 pound lots dirt cheap.

Good to know. Who sells it 20 pounds at a time?

BTW for very high contrast situations, I dilute stock D-23 1:3 with water (using 100 ml of stock for one sheet of 4x5) and develop it in a tray with limited agitation. I find it works quite well at controlling the highlights, but it needs about another stop of exposure compared to normal or plus development in the Jobo tank.

[roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau]

Curious about the "keeps" bit.

Most of what I've read is about D23 has been using it one-shot and mixing at time-of-use. I've been doing that with Caffenol and thinking maybe D-23 might not be all that much more toxic (use gloves, mask, etc. when mixing...duh) and perhaps less irregularly dependent on the coffee bagger's access to particular beans from one batch to another, and if D23 kept and would NOT NEED to be mixed each time from scratch, that would sure be handy. Caffenol I've mixed the ingredients in higher concentration and kept each of them in their own separate containers and it's worked fine, saving some trouble and time in leaving the prep to only a final mix-for-use. Not too bothersome. But to go from scratch.... each time is a bit of a pain. So that's kind of kept me from diving into D23.

Finding Jim Noel's suggestion that D-23 can be made up in stock is good news to me, and just might be the push I need. Never used the stuff, but admired many of the photos and even bought the Formulary kit to give it a shot. And what I admire most are the beautiful midtones. Ken Lee... this means your site is wonderfully full of both everyday and exceptional photos, and I'm sure others conform to this, too. I'm very much an everyday photo kind of guy... the beauty next door type of thing (helps to pick what's next door btw).

So if I may follow on for a bit more detail for those mixing stock and keeping it, do you keep it MIXED as a solution, or are you keeping it separate concentrates and mixing to final use when you're planning a developing session? I realize this is a small difference, but experience with this approach (with Caffenol) used with chems that don't generally keep has been very positive. So I'm just wondering.... 'cause it sure would be nice to have the convenience in mix-it-yourself that I used to enjoy with mega liters of ID11, XTOL and all the rest.

My thanks in advance. Gray day here... may call for working some D23 in the basement!

[Ben Calwell]

I keep my D23 mixed as a ready-to-use solution in a brown bottle. Since I’m not a prolific shooter, I may only have a few sheets to develop at any one time. It makes no sense for me to dump a liter of freshly mixed D23 after only developing three or four sheets. It lasts a long time as a mixed solution, so I keep reusing until I get a gut feeling that I should dump it and mix a new batch.

[Jim Noel]

I keep my D23 mixed as a ready-to-use solution in a brown bottle. Since I’m not a prolific shooter, I may only have a few sheets to develop at any one time. It makes no sense for me to dump a liter of freshly mixed D23 after only developing three or four sheets. It lasts a long time as a mixed solution, so I keep reusing until I get a gut feeling that I should dump it and mix a new batch.

At this point, keep usingit. YOu may be highly surprised at the results.

[Dugan]

There was a good article in "Camera & Darkroom" I believe (mid-1990's?) about D-23 which extolled the keeping properties, especially in hard rubber tanks with floating lids. I no longer have my copy, or I'd reference it further.