View Full Version : Back to basics - newbie developing help
Hi,
I'm a year or so into 4x5 and am still getting problems on my negatives, and am not sure what the problem is. I've been developing my own B&W for 20+ years and have never had an issue getting good results.
Previously I used a Jobo ATL1500, but it was stolen last December. Luckily the tanks and reels weren't. I've developed 4 sheets on each reel (there's space for 3 sheets on each side of the reel for 6 sheets in total, but I'm not convinced that they won't stick to each other and end up being ruined, so I've been loading 2 on each side, one in the inner and one in the outer groove, leaving the middle groove open) in the smallest tank, everything seemed to work fine and the negatives looked ok. That was a few days ago. So far so good, but that's been a trend here, things look great and then they don't, then everything looks ok again, and I can't seem to identify where I'm changing my routines or causing the problems I'm seeing.
Tonight I loaded up 2 4x5 reels into a large tank (MultiTank 2553) and developed some test shots - Arista EDU Ultra 100 and 200 of the same subject, both at EI100 (wanted to compare the two directly with the same exposure and development). I used a 4 minute pre-wash (turquoise blue water came out), 8 minutes in Rodinal 1+50 @ 20C, 1 minute stop bath, and 5 minute Agfa RapidFix with a 10 minute rinse in water at the end. A quick dunk in photoflo solution and hung up to dry.
2 of the 8 sheets look normal, all of the others have major issues. Some look almost like double exposure, or as if some of one negative has "rubbed off" on another. I'm 99.9% certain they aren't double exposures, the shots are only from a few days ago, I don't recall making any mistakes (and I've made most of them by now, lol!) and was very careful and methodical in my approach. Others look like maybe they did stick to each other, but appear darker in spots - if developer wasn't able to get to a spot on the film I would expect it to be clear, not dark. One of the shots looks like the dark slide wasn't all the way out when I took the picture, as 1/3 of the frame is black. But I remove the slide completely before firing the shutter in order to turn it around when I replace it.
All of the holders are brand new Toyos, I load/unload film in a black double layered cloth changing bag, the Jobo tanks are light-tight, I'm really at a loss to see where I'm messing up. But I must be, somewhere. At least I can see that my film loading is improving, almost all sheets have a perfect symmetrical border around them.
While I'm enjoying more and more the slower pace and contemplative approach LF offers as well as seeing more opportunities and learning to use movements for more creative control, I'm also getting more and more frustrated by so many ruined shots (at least this particular film is cheap, which I why I'm practicing on it before I go back to Velvia and other more pricey ones).
I'd post a few scans, but the negatives are hanging to dry now. If anyone has any initial advice or thoughts about what may be the problem (or more info is needed), please reply.
Thanks!
You're using the center column in the tanks, right? It's part of the light trap and essential as such.
Also do you store the loaded film holders for an extended period of time? If so, store them in the dark. The dark slides are not 100% light tight but will let through a minimal amount of light over an extended period of time (days-weeks).
Are you using the 4x5 reels with the black 'wings' you have to insert after loading the film? These are essential for even development, although the problems caused by not having them (i.e. the older style reels) are not as severe as what you seem to be experiencing.
I never do a prewash but it shouldn't cause the kind of issues you describe. Lots of debate about this, but in any case, it doesn't seem to be the cause of your problems.
Reading your post i don't see any obvious mistakes at first hand, but some pictures of the negatives (the good ones and those with issues) might help identifying the problems.
What i also would like to know is how much chemicals you used and if you developed by rotation or by inversion. And do you remember where the good negatives were located on the reels? That also might give some clues.
Koraks, I am indeed using the center column for the reason you state. I've been storing holders on my desk (in a pretty dim room), although the ones I developed last night were from a weekend shoot, so pretty fresh. I loaded them into the tank on Sunday but didn't get a chance to develop until yesterday. No wings that I can see on the reels, they are multi-size Jobo reels that have 3 slots on each side, for 6 sheets in total. I only use 4 per reel so far.
Huub, I mixed up 1/2l of chemicals for this job, and the development looks good, I filled a sink with water at 20C and did "manual rotation", mimicking the movement of the Jobo by floating the tank in the sink and turning it around and around, changing directions every minute or so. The good/problem negatives were randomly positioned when I stripped them from the reels. No clue there.
Let me see what I can scan and post. Looking at them in the light of day, it looks to me like they were exposed to light when they weren't supposed to be, i.e. beyond my exposure. But the way the light has hit the film looks unusual to me.
OK, center column = good.
The reels you speak of I'm familiar with. They don't work perfectly for me. With some developers, I get uneven density particularly along the long edges of the film (where the film touches the reels). This extends quite a bit (half an inch or more) into the image area. The newer reels with the wings completely solved the issue for me. But again, this is likely not the (only) problem you are having.
As to your development approach: I think it's very hard to keep the tank perfectly level during development in the setup you're using. The 500ml developer volume assumes horizontal mounting on a Jobo processor. Maybe part of the problem is that your tank bobs in all kinds of directions in the water-filled sink but in doing so fails to submerge parts of some negatives consistently. To see if this is part of the problem, I would recommend doing a test run with a few sheets and in normal standing-up development (as you'd use e.g. a Paterson or Nikor tank), also with much more developer so that the film is covered when the tank is standing. If you get good development this way, it's a cue that you may have to invest in a roller base.
If you could post some examples I'm sure it will make things a bit more tangible for all of us.
When you are using the large Jobo tanks that take two 4x5 spools, 500ml fluid is probably not enough. If i remember correctly they need 600ml to cover the films, at least my newer 2551 ones do. When using manual rotation in a sink i would use even a bit more as the rotation of the tank will not be perfectly horizontal as a processor would do. Also half a liter of 1+50 Rodinal is on the limit of the amount of concentrate that is needed to develop the film. Going by memory i think Agfa recommends using at least 6ml or 8 ml per 4 sheets of 4x5, so it is barely enough. I second Koraks advise and try to do a test with inversion developement, using 2500 ml of liquid to fill the tank. A second test could using at least 1 L of fluid and do a rotation development again in your water filled sink.
But when your negatives look like they have been struck by light, the cause is probably something completely different. A lens board not seated correctly, pulling the darkslide out of the cassette and moving the cassette at the same time, a bellows not correctly attached to the camera, pinholes in the bellows and probably half a dozen more issues can cause light leaks. And don't ask how i know this.....
Mick Fagan
25-Mar-2020, 01:10
If you are using a 2553 tank, then 500ml of chemistry is not enough. Close, but not close enough. From memory, they require around 550ml or 560ml, but I always used 600ml for safety.
The reels you have without the wings, will in most cases work pretty good with 6 sheets, but every now and again I ended up with two sheets touching each other. My fix was to only use the inner and outer slots, as you have done. Eventually I got the wings and things are certainly better, but I still only ever developed 4 sheets at a time.
Mick.
jtomasella
25-Mar-2020, 05:30
Maybe your shutter blades are sticking? Did you use a different lens on the good one compared to the bad ones?
I doubt it. Both lenses I've bought have been sent to Rod at Arca Swiss USA for a thorough check, shutter speed test, and mounting on a lens board. They both look and work as new.
Maybe your shutter blades are sticking? Did you use a different lens on the good one compared to the bad ones?
Ok, I have a few quick scans (a digital snapshot inverted, changed to B&W, did a quick level adjust in PS and exported for web) that illustrate the problem. I'm getting light leaking in somehow, but am not sure where. I think it may be either when loading/unloading film, or loading the reels and tanks for developing, as the film holders are all new (Toyo) and I've seen the same holders produce perfect negatives.
I also notice that this emulsion seems to have a lot of specks, dimples, marks and unevenness in general. Maybe I will go back to Kodak after I've completed the boxes I've bought. It's a bit muddy and disappointing so far. I'll have to experiment more with it, and won't know for sure until I get my developing down properly. Another really bizzarre thing is that the notch codes for 100 and 200 ISO are the same. Quite unhelpful, I'm not sure who thought that was a good idea!
Notice the bands and stripes on similar/same subject and exposure, taken over several days:
202003202004202002202005
A few more...202006202007
Thanks for posting the pictures. It looks to me that there are several issues, at least.
The easiest is the light leak on the fourth picture on post #10. This could have very well been caused when pulling the darkslide not completely straight from the cassette, which got lifted just a little bit for a fraction of a second. I am very carefull when pulling the darkslide and often use my left hand to make sure that the cassette doesn't move in the camera, while pulling and inserting the darkslide with my right hand.
Then: on some of the pictures you can see on the top and bottom lines where the film got overdeveloped a bit. These are flow paterns caused by the older jobo spools. There are lots of post on this issue. Some developer - film combinations seem more sensitive to it then others. The newer spools with the flaps certainly improved the issue, but the only way i could solve it was by switching to inversion development, using XTOL in a replenishment system.
A third issue seems to be general uneven development. My guess is that this is caused by not using enough liquid and developer. Switch to 1 L when doing hand rotation in a sink and it will probably be solved.
And then there are these bands and stripes and to be honest: i don't have a clue. Did you load the cassettes all at the same time and left a couple in a place where they got exposed with light? Then it could be that the darkslides are opaque. But perhaps others might recognize the paterns.
You could do a test using just two negatives which you load and immediately shoot, while leaving another cassette after loading for a couple of days in the light en then shoot those. Develop the two sets seperately in 1 L of fluid the way you did before and see what happens.
Doremus Scudder
26-Mar-2020, 11:00
The processing per se does not appear to be the problem.
Your first image is most definitely a multiple exposure, double or even triple. This could be happening in camera or, possible, when the negatives are developing but somehow being exposed to light. Second image: ditto. The third image looks alright to me, but I don't know the original scene. The fourth image has a definite light strike.
So, instead of obsessing about the developing, start looking for the source of the double exposures and the light strike. Examine your tank, your camera, and check your darkslides for light-tightness. IIRC, there was an issue with Toyo holders some time back; the darkslides were made of material that was not completely opaque.
Do you recognize the stripe pattern from anything you might have, or have seen? That might give you a clue as to what's really happening.
To test a holder, load it with a piece of film or photo paper and set it in the sun for some time, then develop the film/paper in total darkness and see if there is fogging, banding.
Check the camera by getting a light source inside it in a darkened room. Examine the camera from all angles with the bellows completely extended. Check the lensboard too.
Check your developing tank as well as you can as well.
Good luck,
Doremus
C. D. Keth
26-Mar-2020, 14:50
Have you checked your camera for light leaks? I had a similar conundrum with a 5x7 camera years ago. I kept getting what looked like multiple exposures but I was SURE I wasn't exposing film more than once. It turned out to be a pinhole in a very far forward fold of the bellows that would sometimes project a pinhole image into the film.
CK, the camera was completely overhauled by Bob at Precision camera last fall, I would be shocked if there were any light leaks, it's like brand new. I'll try the test Doremus suggests just the same to see if there are any visible leaks.
Doremus, interesting idea. I bought the Toyo's from a member here, used, but all new in box and unopened, he had bought them and never used them. I'll run a check on a few of them and see what happens. The stripe pattern doesn't look like any subject I would have shot, but reminds me of a row of windows. Maybe light somehow got in when I moved the film from the box to the holders, or the holders to the developing tank? I use a double layer black changing bag, but it's an eBay item from China. Maybe it's not completely dark inside? I haven't had any problems loading 120 film into tanks, but they take much less space than 4x5 film holders. I also had a semi-darkroom before and used the dark bag in it, now I only have a room with the blinds closed and the changing bag.
So I guess I'll do a few additional things, like use only the smallest tank (for now) for 4 sheets at a time max, as well as mix a larger quantity of chemicals. I can try normal stand/inversion development and compare to the water bath/rolling method I've been using.
I've developed thousands of rolls of 120 the last decade or two with rarely any problem, but this is completely different. Both because I don't actually have the Jobo ATL anymore, and I'm using a different film than what I'm used to (in 120 I've been shooting APX100, with an occasional foray to Tri-X and Plus-X at times, all developed in Rodinal).
Thanks for the suggestions so far.
esearing
27-Mar-2020, 02:30
I would recommend acquiring the Stearman Press 445 tank for this type of experimentation. Then you can practice frequent inversion techniques or minimal inversions/stand as your developer allows. Even the Patterson 4x5 side to side slosher tank gives good results for bulk processing.
The vertical window-like stripes strongly suggest that the negs are being exposed to extraneous light whilst loaded onto the developing reel. If you are using the Jobo 2509 or similar, the spacing of the diagonal struts seem to conform to perfectly to the spacing of the vertical shadows. One side of the reel is black and one is clear. The black one would cast a much stronger shadow than the clear side.
To test this, I would suggest cutting a piece of white 5x4" copy paper out and loading it onto the reel as though it was a sheet of film. Then get a smallish light source like an LED torch/flash light and see if you can cast shadows onto the sheet which conform to what you are getting in the film. If you can, then this confirms that the film is being exposed whilst on the reel. It also gives you the direction of the light which is causing it, which should give you some clues as to when it is happening.
Ok, I've been trying some things out.
Per recommendations here and elsewhere, I've been exposing the 100 ISO as 80, and the 200 as 160. They are now developed separately (100/200 in own batches) rather than together, and I've adjusted the times to suit according to the MDC - 7 minutes in Rodinal 1+50 20C for the 100 ISO and 10 minutes for 200. I also bought the "wings" to add to my Jobo reels and loaded 6 sheets per reel without any problems.
Doing traditional inversion processing, pouring 1200ml of solution into the tank to completely cover the film, 1 minute of continual agitation followed by 10 seconds every minute. Stop bath. Fix. Rinse. Photo-flo wash and hang up to dry.
A few on another thread said that the 200 develops fast, although MDC states 8-10 minutes, which doesn't seem too fast to me.
The negatives look ok, not great, not horrible. I'm still seeing some unevenness on the developing, blotches here and there, but more surprising are what look like small spots of missing emulsion (?!?) on a few sheets. I've been very careful to handle by the edges only, as far as I'm aware. If I remember correctly, white spots indicate dust or debris on the emulsion, or missing emulsion, and black spots would be what? I'm using liquid, not powder developer.
As I haven't experienced more of the issues I posted about, I'm assuming it must have been either loading the film holders, or more probably the reels, since my color sheets have all come out fine, no leaks or light marks. I unload them into a box and deliver it to the lab.
Ideas?
202680202681202682
Well, these look way better already then your first shoots and it looks like you have resolved most of the issues of the first set of negatives.
Both black and white spots could be dust, missing emulsion is very rare. The white spots being caused by dust on your film after exposure and development, the black spots by dust pre-exposure. Be very careful when loading your film: changing bags and such can be notorius sources of dirt on your film. And also when hanging your film to dry: try to make sure the environment is as dust free as possible. Some hang them to dry in a shower that they have sprayed around with water to take out the dust.
The blotches on top of your second negative can be caused by not using enough developer in your tank. My tank states that it needs 1500 ml for inversion for 4x5 and when i fill it to the brim directly from the tap, that is what comes out of the tank, more or less.
A last remark: it is always hard to judge on a positive, but it feels like your negatives could do with a bit more exposure. Did you compensate for the Schwarzschild-effect when using longer times? And also: Rodinal and it's clones are known for needing a bit more exposure for good shadow detail.
Hi Huub,
dank u wel, I really appreciate the comments. I'm going to vacuum out my changing bag and consider getting an anti-static brush for my film holders. Zip-lok baggies for each holder should be easy to arrange.
I do hang the film in a damp-ish bathroom already, and dip them in a photo-flo bath beforehand, after the rinse.
Before this last round I measured the amount of chemicals needed to cover the film and reel in the smallest tank, it's 1150ml, so I rounded up to 1200ml. I did try 1500ml and it overflowed.
Thanks for the exposure info. The first two were mainly due to poor Photoshop skills, and my son had simply taken a picture of the negs on a light table with his DSLR. They were still in the sleeves. The last one was taken at night, and I did indeed increase exposure to account for reciprocity effects, using a table I found online here (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?142626-Reciprocity-of-Fomapan-or-Arista-Ultra), it was f11/20 seconds (measured eV5, which gives 6 seconds, rounded up to 20 based on the tables here) with a 150mm APO-Sironar-S.
I wasn't aware that Rodinal required a touch more exposure, but will keep that in mind and add 1/3 to 1/2 a stop going forward.
John Berry
18-Apr-2020, 01:41
If you are drying in the bathroom as I have done, leave the fan OFF. It took little while to figure it was sucking dust into the room, making the white spots, I agree changing bag is a good source for specks on loading. when you open the bag air and everything in it will rush in. Stop using stop bath for film. Just use a 1 min water bath. I have been dunking film since 1970, I know some will disagree with me, my negs disagree with you. Less chance on having pinholes is the payoff.
That should be easy, there is no fan! Life by the beach in sunny Southern California ;-)
I've already gone over my changing bag and will clean all holders as well as inside the bellows, just in case.
No stop bath? Really? How does stop create pinholes?
If you are drying in the bathroom as I have done, leave the fan OFF. It took little while to figure it was sucking dust into the room, making the white spots, I agree changing bag is a good source for specks on loading. when you open the bag air and everything in it will rush in. Stop using stop bath for film. Just use a 1 min water bath. I have been dunking film since 1970, I know some will disagree with me, my negs disagree with you. Less chance on having pinholes is the payoff.
I've bee told that an acid stop bath can rupture carbonate bubbles on the film surface, resulting in clear pinholes.
That should be easy, there is no fan! Life by the beach in sunny Southern California ;-)
Ive already gone over my changing bag and will clean all holders as well as inside the bellows, just in case.
No stop bath? Really? How does stop create pinholes?
The dust that blows around here in LA tends to be lightweight (as dust goes) and moves around easily... Other places are different, such as NYC that had heavy, gritty dust that flew around less...
Another issue is lint (that flies around easily)... Paper products for the home have a lot of it, so if you use a bathroom for loading or lab, that toilet paper roll will leave lint on nearby surfaces...
Clothes are another major source of lint (and some worse that others)... Your nice wool sweater or jacket lining can be a source... And pockets tend to be a fuzz farm... (I had a malfunctioning clothes dryer causing excessive lint on my clothes that was causing problems in the lab until I tracked it down to what I was wearing...
Pinholes from stop baths usually come from possible interaction of alkaline compounds in film that can be turned into a gas bubble in the presence of an acid, sometimes causing a blowout (pinhole) on some softer emulsions...
Steve K
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