ULF opportunity

[steve simmons]

Ilford is looking for orders for ULF film. Orders have to be placed by mid to late January.

If you want to send us your name and contact info we will collect the names and pass them on.

No, I am not going to take any money for this effort and View Camera is not going to profit from this. We will pass this info on to a dealer and the will contact interested people.

steve simmons

largformat@aol.com

[John_4185]

How will VC magazine do a better job than, say, informing J&C of the opportunity and letting them do the same thing?

[steve simmons]

Do whatever pleases you. I am simply putting out the info.

If everyone hits different dealers with one off orders the dealer may not be able to make the min order. By collecting everyone together we are more likely to make the min order.

steve simmons

[sanking]

"How will VC magazine do a better job than, say, informing J&C of the opportunity and letting them do the same thing?"

First, with regard to JandC, they have not previously handled the Ilford films, and may be more interested at this time in a deal with Kodak for one of their films. See Michael Kadillak's message of a week or so ago about TMY.

Second, you could communicate directly with a dealer like the View Camera Store, which has stocked in the past the Ilford films in ULF size. However, the prospect that such an order can be realized does depend on someone being able to provide Ilford with an accurate assessemnt of demand, and in that regard I believe that going through View Camera is a good idea, and I applaud and appreciate the efforts of Steve Simmons in this matter.

[Jim Chinn]

Contact Steve or contact Ilford directly. The point is Ilford is deciding on the feasibility of a run of film and what formats to cut. From what I have gathered on APUG it will be both FP4 and HP5.
It sounds like this is going to be a once or twice a year proposition, therefore having a handle on what will be sold is important for Ilford.

[Witold Grabiec]

JJ, I think you should first do a better job spelling out your name.

Steve's effort should only be appreciated in this thread. I can't see what else he should say. Like it, jump on, but if you don't like it - let others do the talking.

[Tedd]

Has Ilford stated what the minimum order is for each size?

I order 12x20 HP5, granted, a year and a half ago through a professional camera store, Molanders, here in Stockholm Sweden.
The minimum order was ONLY 6 boxes and they delivered in just over 4 weeks.

[QT Luong]

How will VC magazine do a better job than, say, informing J&C of the opportunity and letting them do the same thing?

Because View Camera is a more recognized name in our community than J&C.

[John_4185]

JJ, I think you should first do a better job spelling out your name.

What is that supposed to mean?

Anyone here can see my name.

Spell it out yourself.

Because View Camera is a more recognized name in our community than J&C.

I am beginning to see that J&C isn't endeared here. Why is that? What should I beware of?

[sanking]

"I am beginning to see that J&C isn't endeared here. Why is that? What should I beware of?"

JJ,

I don't understand why you would say this? Maybe there is some hidden text of which *I* am not aware? But for my part, I am a customer of JandC and have had great service, and will without question buy there again. JandC provides some interesting products at good prices, and I have had very good service in all of my dealings with them.

Nothing I have said was in any way meant to be reflect negatively on JandC, and I did not see that in any of the other comments.

[John_4185]

I was quoting QT who said, Because View Camera is a more recognized name in our community than J&C." Sorry I didn't put in the attribution.

I've had no bad dealings with J&C under any of my order-names. I was just wondering if there was something recent I may have missed. There have been suggestions that quality control nas been an issue and I really don't want to open every single lot to test the film before storage, especially when I expect to make a large order.

[Aaron van de Sande]

J&C doesn't carry Ilford, so at this point he is a competitor to them(and vice versa). Why would they go to him for marketing advice, and why would he help?

[robert_4927]

John at J&C is a gem to deal with. My first order of 8x20 from J&C is a fine example. My film arrived in a timely fashion and as I was ready to reorder again I noticed the price had doubled so I checked my box and sure enough it was the same amount of sheets that was being advertised for twice the price I had paid two weeks earlier. After asking the question in a public forum if J&C had doubled their prices in a matter of two weeks I soon found out what had happened. The manufacture changed packaging on J&C from 25 sheets to 50 sheet boxes after I placed my order. What John did was send me a box of 50 when in fact I had paid for only 25 at no extra costs and with no questions asked. So I had to humbly apologize and thank him for the exceptional customer service. I now buy all my film from J&C. The PL100 is nice film and I'm starting to grow real fond of the j&c 400. So VC and J&C can count me in on both of their endeavors. Hell just to get Kodak to consider a run is an achievement. Good Luck to both parties.

[Ralph Barker]

For the lastest update from Ilford, take a look at this post on the Ilford forum:

http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/ILFOPRO/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7023

[QT Luong]

I meant nothing negative about J&C. However they are a store, and VC in a magazine (the magazine).

[David Flockhart]

This from a recent post in another forum:

Note in the post on the Ilford forum that actual ULF orders in North America will be accepted through "a select list of dealers", yet unannounced. Sending an indication of interest to a third party who isn't one of the "select dealers" may not constitute an actual order.

Posting on the Ilford PULPA section looks like it will get you an e-mail notification, however.

[steve simmons]

I will be sending names etc. to one of the select dealers.

steve simmons

[Jay DeFehr]

Thanks, Steve.

I hope that anyone even considering ULF will express their interest, and perhaps even buy some film. If the film is stored properly, there seems to be very little depreciation of value on the used market if one decides to sell, and extremely difficult to source for those without. In my own opinion, Ilford films cannot be compared to the EU films sold by JandC. Ilford films are state of the art, and their QC is unparallelled. Given the expense and limited productivity of ULF photography, less than optimum film seems a false economy. If Ilford determines the ULF market insignificant, we might all be left with old technology films, and all of the problems inherent in small production runs.

Jay

[Joe Smigiel]

"I will be sending names etc. to one of the select dealers."

Steve,

I don't like this idea at all. If Ilford has "a select list of dealers" how and why do you decide which one to inform? If there is going to be only one source, let Ilford take direct orders from the interested parties or let Ilford designate the single dealer. While I appreciate what you are trying to do, I object to singling out one dealer.

While you may think you are doing a service to the large-format community by this offer, I think it highly unfair to pick out one dealer from all of those who have stuck with the community during some rough times and stocked the specialty products for us, sometimes perhaps taking a loss in the case of ULF films going out-of-date. I'm glad there is A View Camera Store, Badger Graphics, MPEX, J&C, etc., as well as an Adorama, B&H, and Calumet. If your choice is one of Adorama or B&H, I won't be ordering any Ilford film from this point forward.

This strikes me much the same as ordering pharmaceuticals online. One big dealer gets the business and pretty soon the corner pharmacy is out-of-business and closed down. Then where do you go to get that Rx you need in an emergency or in short order? Walmart? No thanks.

[sanking]

Joe: "While you may think you are doing a service to the large-format community by this offer, I think it highly unfair to pick out one dealer from all of those who have stuck with the community during some rough times and stocked the specialty products for us, sometimes perhaps taking a loss in the case of ULF films going out-of-date."

I believe your crticims of Steve Simmons in this matter is misplaced. During the past several years there have been very dealers in this country who made any attempt at all to provide ULF film to the market. I can count them on one hand, (and if you don't count the pinky, index and thumb you know about how many there are.). I know who those folks are, and I think Mr. Simmons does as well, so I feel very confident that what he is doing here is not hand-picking dealers, but planning to communicate with the very few dealers who have tried to support the ULF community in the past.

Let's support this. It is in all of our interest as LF and ULF photograpers to do so.

[John_4185]

Okay, I really messed up suggesting that J&C might be a player. Forgive, if you can. I just plain screwed up.

My Thanks,

[robert_4927]

All I can say is Fp-4 in 14x17 and 8x20 or TMY......WOW! Maybe someone finally took notice in ULF camera sales increases here in the past few years. Even a once a year run would be nice. I know buying a years supply of film might put a pinch on a lot of people but I would rob from paul to pay peter and come up with the money if I knew I could work consistently with those two films. Great news

[Ralph Barker]

The problem I see with Steve's well-meant offer is that it appears the orders (not expressions of interest) need to be prepaid, and not subject to cancellation, except under certain conditions. Thus, it may be better to wait for the publication of the list, and place bonafide orders directly with them, pre-paying whatever their price is for the film.

[David Wooten]

V C is also View Camera store--Fred Newman....He has in the past ordered 7 x 17 for me when it was quite hard to get and hung in there with months of waiting and came through.....he is one Ilford dealer that will be taking orders for the ilford ULF...you can contact him at the View Camera Store for info on prices etc. I am putting an order (for my self-7 x 17 and 14 x 17) together to submit in Jan.

[steve simmons]

Perhaps the best thing for me to do is put the people in contct with each other and let them go to a dealer as a group

steve simmons

[Joe Smigiel]

"I believe your crticims of Steve Simmons in this matter is misplaced. During the past several years there have been very dealers in this country who made any attempt at all to provide ULF film to the market. I can count them on one hand, (and if you don't count the pinky, index and thumb you know about how many there are.). I know who those folks are, and I think Mr. Simmons does as well, so I feel very confident that what he is doing here is not hand-picking dealers, but planning to communicate with the very few dealers who have tried to support the ULF community in the past. "

Sandy,

Sorry, but perhaps I've just been lucky having attempted and purchased ULF film only from The View Camera Store and Badger Graphics. So there's at least two fingers and my batting average is running 1.000. I'm also assuming there has been no problem getting such film from B&H as a regular stock item. I would think other large dealers who I don't do business with also would provide such films as stock items though I don't know if that is the case. If your two are the same as mine I would hate to see either one of them experience a financial loss or possibly go out of business as a result of Mr. Simmons directing all the Ilford sales to the other.

Steve Simmon's post does not state he will be sharing the information "with the very few dealers who have tried to support the ULF community in the past" but rather he would be choosing "a dealer" (singular), so I read that as someone will be the odd man out.

I have no problem with him providing Ilford's information to the community and publicizing who the select dealers are. That's a service we can all appreciate. But he should stay out of the marketing IMO. His business is running a magazine. If he will in fact be promoting a single dealer for ULF film sales, I would caution that that is probably a questionable practice in terms of advertising interests for an enterprise such as his magazine. And, he is not doing this as an individual but rather as an enterprise as indicated by his statement [I]"...View Camera is not going to profit from this. We will pass this info on..."[I/] However altruistic his motives may be, I think this approach is misguided. Fine if he wants to spread the word but that spreading should not be targeted towards a single dealer in my opinion.

Polls have been solicited on the subject of ULF films on the apug.org site as well as Ilford's site by officials at Ilford. They serve to provide direct feedback to Ilford regarding demand for ULF. I think our interests would be better served by Mr. Simmons directing people to those resources, especially the Ilford site, rather than taking on the task himself to inform Ilford via a single dealer. But, unfortunately no mention was made of those polls in his original post here. Fred Newman of The View Camera Store has already indicated he has been in contact with Ilford regarding this matter and tonight he posted information and offered assistance on the apug.org site, so we know who at least one of the select dealers will be. I for one would like to know who the others are so I can make a choice about who to do business with rather than having to rely on Mr. Simmons to make that choice for me.

[sanking]

Joe: "Sorry, but perhaps I've just been lucky having attempted and purchased ULF film only from The View Camera Store and Badger Graphics. So there's at least two fingers and my batting average is running 1.000. I'm also assuming there has been no problem getting such film from B&H as a regular stock item ."

Well, the View Camera Store would definitely have been one of the fingers on my hand as a reliable source of ULF film. And it would not surprise me that Badger Graphics has also supplied film in ULF sizes in the past. Do they now? As for B&H, I will have to defer to tbetter judgement of others -- but if B&H has ever offered ULF film for sale I missed it so I think you might indeed have made a big mistake in your assumption that you could just call them up and get it.

In fact, who could you call tomorrow and get any ULF film other than BPF, or one of the East European films from JandC?

Of course, in the past there was Photo Warehouse, which offered the wonderful FP4+ clone, but no more.

[Joe Smigiel]

"-- but if B&H has ever offered ULF film for sale I missed it so I think you might indeed have made a big mistake in your assumption that you could just call them up and get it.

In fact, who could you call tomorrow and get any ULF film other than BPF, or one of the East European films from JandC? "

I could be very mistaken Sandy. I have always either done business with Fred Newman or Badger when ordering any ULF film and never had to call anyone else. I guess I've been lucky on that account. I've been very satisfied with their friendly service. Since dealers like B&H and Classic Camera carry (carried?) ULF holders, I made the assumption they would stock or order film for ULF. If I were searching I'd also give Samy's and Calumet a call and I suspect that Adorama might also be a possible source (although I'd switch entirely to wetplate before ordering anything from them again).

I do appreciate Steve's gesture but think more than one dealer should be involved. I'm only going on what he actually wrote above, so if his intention is to supply names to a group of dealers, I'm fine with that. I certainly want TVCS and Badger to flourish and for Ilford to keep manufacturing ULF films.

[sanking]

Joe: "I could be very mistaken Sandy. I have always either done business with Fred Newman or Badger when ordering any ULF film and never had to call anyone else. "

You were indeed very lucky, and those were two good places to call.

But just call around tomorrow and see where you can buy any films by Kodak or Ilford in ULF size at a reasonable price. But don't report back here, just buy it and advertise it on ebay at four times your buying price.

Now, if price is no consideration and you need 100 sheets of 7X17 TRI-X 320, just call me and pay for my upcoming trip to Mexico. How much will this cost you? Well, as they say in the yach t business, if you have to ask you can't afford it. Course, if you don't like my deal just call up any of your favorite photo stores and check out their price.

[Joe Smigiel]

"...Now, if price is no consideration and you need 100 sheets of 7X17 TRI-X 320, just call me...

Now what on earth would I do with that little stuff?

I have a freezer full of 11x14 Ektapan, TMX, HP5+, Efke 25, RVP, and EPN as well as some 8x20 HP5+ around here someplace. Probably worth more than my automobile...

I'll be ordering some FP4+ to add to the stash.

[John Kasaian]

I would love to see FP-4+ available again in 12x20. The more variety of film available the more perspective ULFers will be encouraged to jump into the pool.

[sanking]

Sandy: "Now, if price is no consideration and you need 100 sheets of 7X17 TRI-X 320, just call me and pay for my upcoming trip to Mexico.

Whoaa!! The bidding price is now $1200!!

[Richard Ide]

Personally, I would love to be able to buy a 20" roll or 2 and cut to whatever size I want; when I need it. One size to inventory and I would get all the sizes I want right up to 20 x 30 or longer.
Hope this doesn't open a can of worms.

Richard

[steve simmons]

As I stated in my last post I will compile a list of people and pass it out to them. They can then get together and go to a dealer of their choice.

View Camera is doing part 2 of the future of large format in our January issue. We have compiled a list of all the sheet films we can find and their commonly available sizes. We will also ask in that issue for peope who want to contact us for the purpose of buying groups.

steve simmons

[Curtis Nelson]

Steve,

just a quick request (sorry - don't mean to steal this thread):

You mentioned that you're writing an article for an upcoming issue of VC in which you list all of the currently available sheet film and sizes. Could you also list who makes the film? It seems a lot of film is simply re-branded film from one of the major manufacturers.

Thanks.

And now back to the regularly-scheduled programming...

[steve simmons]

Here are my suggestions.

Gather together and form as big a buying group as possible. I do not care how this/these groups form - someone else can be the facilitator, it does not matter to me.

Don't assume you can buy a box now and a box a year from now.(I have no inside info on anything.) Future opportunities may depend on the amount of interest generated during this open period.

If you have a favorite dealer contact them and ask if they can take your order.

The names I am collecting will be put into an e-mail and sent out to those who have contacted me so they can form a group.

just my thoughts

steve simmons

[Michael Mutmansky]

Folks,

This may be your last opportunity to purchase a 'special' size of Ilford film. Hopefully, the ULF shooters out there understand the significance of this and are willing to act.

Anyone who is serious about shooting ULF with Ilford (particulary FP4 for alt process printers)should be thinking about purchasing a substantial amount of film, because while Ilford hopes this will be an annual ordering opportunity, it is unreasonable to presume that you will be able to replenish the film next year.

What do you do with it? Put a date on it, wrap it in plastic, and store it in a freezer. A low speed film like FP4 will last for many, many years with no problems, and only a minor increase in B+F after a very long storage time period.

If you order 10 years worth of film and Ilford continues to offer ULF film on an annual basis, you can continue to replenish the back of the freezer with new film so that when the end does come (and it will, make no mistake about that), you will have a decade worth of film in storage.

If you order 10 years worth of film and Ilford decides not to do it again, then you are set for a decade, and you can start looking for alternatives in the meantime.

Seriously, I don't thinkpeople should consider this a one or two box opportunity, but as possibly the LAST opportunity for special sized Ilford film. It's going to hurt the wallet, but if you want to be able to use a particular camera into the future, you must be thinking in terms of buying for a longer timeframe.

---Michael

[steve simmons]

I just talked to Ilford.

This window will remain open until late JANUARY

There is no minimum order

the list of dealers is being developed. and should be finalized by next week.

steve simmons

[Michael Kadillak]

Following Michael's comments above, do not eliminate the possibility of considering Kodak T Max 400 in ULF sizes from your future film consumption. While we have not yet closed the loop yet with Kodak, we are making significant progress that we can hopefully post shortly.

I personally find T Max 400 the better alternative in the higher ASA offering but am also a huge fan of FP4 which I will participate in the offering from Ilford as many others will also.

All things considered, all of the people that have been taking a very negative position on the future of film (particularly ULF) should take a deep breath and be thankful for very positive indications of an opportunity to stock up. In any industry there are no guarantees but a solid show of support from the pocketbook will go a long way to establishing some credibility with the major film manufacturers.

I look forward to seeing the Ilford price list by format so that I can make an intelligent purchasing decision.

As soon as we are in a position to do the same with the T Max 400 (I always cross my fingers until 100% of the paperwork is favorably completed) we will make the pricing available as well.

It could be a very Merry Christmas in the world of LF.

Cheers!

[Brian Ellis]

Maybe I'm missing something here but if Ilford is selling through a select group of specified dealers surely they're not going to look only at the orders received from a single dealer and ignore all the others. Won't they look at the orders from all the dealers in the group and then make their determination?

It makes obvious sense for a group of people to get together to place a single order when a manufacturer has specified a minimum order size. But as far as I can tell that isn't what Ilford has done. So what's the purpose of trying to channel all orders through one person or one dealer as opposed to everyone just placing their orders with the dealer of their choice in the select group? Either way Ilford will get a certain number of orders, add them up, and then presumably decide whether and at what price the run can profitably be made.

[Michael Mutmansky]

Brian,

When Steve first posted, it wasn't clear that Ilford was not going to require minimum orders, so Steve was essentially helping to provide a clearinghouse for people of the same size to pool the orders.

At this point, it seems that we need to find out the dealers that will be participating, and then get in orders to our preferrd dealer once that is available. I understand the dealer list should be available from Ilford next week.

---Michael

[Hany Aziz]

I realize it is not ULF but I would appreciate if you could cut HP5+ (or FP4+) in 4x10.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Hany.

[Michael Mutmansky]

Hany,

4x10 is not a size that Ilford has listed for purchase. I presume that they feel it is easy enough to cut it down from 8x10, and therefore it will not be offered.

However, it Ilford gets enough requests for it, I believe they could be convinced to make it, so don't give up on it. Call a dealer and request it. Tell all your 4x10 friends to do the same.

---Michael