MT Classic or MT 2000

[Brian_6142]

I am thinkinh of purchasing either the Linhof MT Classic or the MT2000 for mainly landscape purposes. I do not usually use wider than a 75mm lens (approx. 24mm in 35mm? except with my Horseman 612 which I like using the 45mm) but I would like to keep my options open. My question is how useful is the rangefinder on the Classic for landscape? Does anyone use it for landscape at all? Is it worth sacrificing the rangefinder for ultra wide angle capabilities?

Many thanks.

[robc]

I don't have the camera in question but have researched it very carefully as I intend to get the MT2000 at some point.

For critical focusing, and in any instance where the front and rear rear standards are not parallel, then a lupe is necessary anyway. i.e. if you use tilt or swing then the range finder is not much use.
Where the rangefinder is useful is for handheld action or documentary style images. However, for the rangefinder to work you must have a cam link made for each of your lenses as they are specific to focal length and need to be very accurately machined. The cams are not cheap so unless you are prepared to get them made for each lense you want to use, then there is no advantage to getting the MT classic. The 2000 is cheaper and lighter and will take much shorter lenses if ever required. My thoughts are that I would never be likely to use the camera handheld so the range finder is unecessary.

[John_4185]

I am a rangefinder freak for 4x5, MF and LF, so consider the source.

If you use swings, tilts, then a rangefinder won't be useful. If you do only work that doesn't require movements, and you stick to one lens (for example, 135mm), then the Technika is a horrible waste of money - you can do as well or better with alternatives I can mention in another thread. Finally, if you do not use the rangefinder, then the beautiful, precise Linhof optical viewfinder can be replaced with a little bit of experience, or much less expensive equivalents.

Many lenses for the Technika come with cams. No special grinding required. I am referring to model V and later, of course.

All that said, if you DO use straight rangefinder work a lot, and you ALSO do ground-glass work, then the Super Technika (the Classic) is awesome - cannot be beat for a single field camera solution.

[Ed Richards]

The rangerfinder is very useful when you need to get a shot in a hurry, or when you do not want to be behind a dark cloth. Think balancing on rocks or on boards in a swamp, or on the remains of a hurricane damaged pier - all of which I have done. You need the Linhof varifocal finder to really use it effectively so that your framing is accurate. (I have an older Technika, but the principle is the same.) Rob is right - you need cammed lenses, but these are sometimes available on Ebay and are interchangeable on the MT. If you are buying a new one, they make you a good deal on camera, lens, cam package. (Within the very limited context of a good deal on a Linhof.) Marflex will cam a lens for $250 last time I checked, which is a terrific deal. I have a camed 90 and 150, and I use the 90 with the cam a lot. I shot about 150 images of hurricane damage, and most were with the rangefinder on tripod so I could work quickly and in some nasty places. You cannot use it with tilts, but you can use it with the front raised a bit - you get pretty good at guessing elevation to reduce the foreground.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I like the rangefinder--rarely for landscapes but sometimes it's useful in low light, if you're not using any camera movements and just stopping down for DOF.

I do use the camera handheld like a press camera, and you might find that if you have a 4x5" with a rangefinder, you'll find uses for it. It's great for travel, where I might want to switch off between view camera mode and press camera mode, shoot everything in the same format with the same lenses, and not have to bring another camera.

The rangefinder is also handy for portraits, so you can check focus with a filmholder in the back.

The widest lens I use on the Tech V is a 55mm Apo-Grandagon, and while it can be done, it's a little awkward. With the wideangle focusing device, the rear cell just barely fits and needs to be adjusted very carefully so it doesn't rub against the side of the focusing device. Once you've got that sorted out (a one time operation, and then it's set), you need to be sure it's set on the inside track so that you have a reasonable focusing range without the focusing knob hitting the center filter (do it a few times, and you'll have it). If you've got any slight imperfections in the way the bellows folds, you might have some bellows vignetting that can't really be resolved without replacing the bellows or adding some front rise/fall shift, which could cause other kinds of vignetting (I have this problem with the back in the vertical position, so for verticals I either use the camera sideways or with a little front rise). Maybe the new Linhof helical mounts avoid these pitfalls, but they add substantially to the cost of the system. It's workable, but if you really use 47mm or 55mm lenses often, the MT2000 is a better option than the Classic.

[Michael Kadillak]

I have the Linhof Master with the rangefinder and have a 90mm, 150mm and 200mm lenses cammed for this camera. When I acquired the camera I honestly felt that I would use the rangefinder component regularly for most of my 4x5 shooting.

The reality of the situation is that for candid off tripod shooting in crowded places, for spontaneously shooting people or where tripods are not allowed the range finder component is truly fabulous.The extra film speed in T Max 400 is a great partner in these conditions. I had Marflex perform the camming and install the infinity stops and they did a fabulous job.

However, for landscape work even though I know that it may not be always absolutely necessary I seem to find my comfort zone on the ground glass. I drop a set of infinity stops and pull the front standard into position and it is a breeze. If you decide to use movements however, I am always on the ground glass just to make sure.

Using wide angle lenses or shooting architecture would be better served IMHO by the Linhof Technikardan 45S. The Master Technika in either designation is a great camera but has its limitations. It is a heavy very expensive camera.

I know a guy that has a Super Speed Graphic and has several lenses cammed for his camera and although his camera has less bellows extansion (about 12/13"), he paid under $400 for his camera and it makes marvelous images.

I remember reading that John Sexton uses the Master for landscape and the TK45S for architecture / wide angle lenses. Both are great cameras but are designed for different applications.

Cheers!

[Bill_1856]

IMHO, without the use of coupled lenses, a Technika is a clumsy and overpriced substitute for a good modern field camera such as a Wista, Horseman, Canham, etc . OTOH, it is a PITA to change cams.

[Bob Salomon]

" it is a PITA to change cams."

How is simply pulling a cam out and pushing a new one in a PITA? There are no tools required and all one needs do is put the lens standard into the body and extend the bed rails till the cam is exposed. Then a simple pull to remove and a simple push to replace.

[Wilbur Wong]

Brian,

I shoot landscape almost exclusively. For years I had used a Sinar F, then agonized ages over buying a true folding field camera. I finally got my MT2000, about 3 years ago and have never regretted the decision (at the time I had to get over the cost, but I'll be using this for decades).

I always compose and focus on the ground glass, so the rangefinder would be of no benefit to me. I think that at least 90% of the time I am using at least front tilt with medium and longer lenses, up to 300mm.

When I use my 65 mm, I usually use back tilt, with this camera front tilt is difficult with the lens inside the body but the back tilt works great. In fact, I am glad I didn't follow Linhof's recommendation to use the special lens boards, as they negate the possibility of as much movement of the back.

The camera is built with incredible precision and is extremely durable. I have seen them tumble across asphalt parking lots and pick up only abrasions. I have also heard of them surving staircases. I do recall someone on the forum who had one fully open with an extended bellows, on a tripod have the entire rig slammed down a precipice by a gust of wind and it did bend the door. But if I recall right, the owner went on to get a new one.

For my uses, the 2000 is a good choice and is excellent value for the price. (I drive a 6 year old pickup truck which fits my life style better than a Mercedes Benz.)

As Michael above notes, John Sexton uses the MT as does David Muench, Bruce Barnbaum, John Fielder, along with a host of other landscape folks. I only dream of doing as well as some of these great photographers, but I will also vouch that the camera supports me well in the field, leaving me to concentrate on the photograph.

[Bob Salomon]

"John Sexton uses the MT "

John has had the 2000 almost as long as it has been available. He traded his MT Classic to Glazers for it.

[Frank Petronio]

If I had gobs of money lying around, I'd probably get a MT or other "nice" camera for landscape and an inexpensive Graphic for RF shooting with a standard 135 lens. The Graphic (side mounted) RFs are easy to adjust and don't require cams, and they are cheap enough that you can use them in foul weather. Considering how easy it is to drop a handheld camera (I've done it more than I want to) a Graphic is a pretty good option.

[Bill_1856]

I just took a peek at B&H's web page, and found that the Technikas were all "special order" or "taking orders" items. Wonder if this means that we are about to see new Technika models?

[David A. Goldfarb]

There are usually a few new Technikas on the shelf at B&H, even if they say "special order" on the website. Not sure if those are considered demos, though, and not for sale.

[Oren Grad]

Wonder if this means that we are about to see new Technika models?

Probably just means that they are no longer willing or able to keep as much working capital tied up in slow-moving specialty stock. The Technikas aren't alone in this respect. B&H has converted many items that used to be stock to "accepting orders" or "special order" status.

[Bob Salomon]

"Wonder if this means that we are about to see new Technika models?"

Nope, means they sold all they had and haven't placed a new order yet.

German view camera manufacturers do not introduce new product this far ahead of Photokina. They always introduce new product at Photokina. That brings photographers, press and consumers to their booth and ensures that they get PR from the show.

[martin howard]

Brian
I'd seriously consider getting a technikardan as a field camera (I'm fortunate to have both the TK & MT). As mentioned earlier, they are indeed very different tools, but if I had a choice of only one it would most definately be the TK. Maybe it's because I cut my LF teeth on it before adding the MT. However, I believe it has alot more to do with being a more intuitive, flexible and "well thought out machine" especially where movements are concerned.
I leave the camera complete most of the time but if it needs to be collapsed it's a simple operation and bellows aren't a problem because it's possible to remove them in seconds. It takes a huge selection of lenses even on flat panels and doubles-up as a studio camera if neccessary. And last but not least they're around half the price (put the rest towards lenses, accessories and film!). Don't get me wrong, I don't regret buying the MT but I see it as a complement to my linhof system. I hope this helps because I only considered the TK based on recommendations in this forum.

[jhogan]

Brian-

I've used a 2000 (lots) for about 3 years now, and feel qualified to make some comments about owning and using it, if I may. My work involves almost exclusively landscapes, most of the time including architectural elements. Certainly you're aware of the adage "there's no one camera perfect for all situations"; compromise applies to the 2000 as well.

Here's what I like about mine:

-It is nice and compact, with nothing fragile to worry about during transport- ie: rangefinder accuracy. If you travel often by plane, motorcycle, or small car you'll really appreciate this feature. I have a bag with 5 lenses, meter, 6x12 back, readyloads, filters, etc., and it fits under the seat in front of me on commercial flights.

-Flexibility. I use a 58, a 300 and everything in between with no fuss whatsoever. The wide angle mechanism is simple to use, unless you're wearing gloves or have really chubby fingers.

-No camming of lenses. My lenses (all modern) can be used to near their limits on coverage, in most circumstances. The bellows is remarkably flexible. The flap on the top is useful, too.

-Quick to set up. A number of small lenses will fit inside the folded camera, including 150 sironars, etc. I leave an SS 80 on a recessed board on/in the camera and, once on the tripod, it takes just a few seconds to be focussing on the gg. I often open the camera and peer through the gg before tripod mounting to determine tripod placement and rough framing. The hinged hood is adequate for this operation.

-Super smooth operation- the fit and finish are impeccable, as you might expect. Unbelievably rigid- it's unnerving to use other cameras in wind once you've tried one of these.

-Resale value, if you want/need to unload it. Currently, mine's worth more than I payed for it new... Still, the 2000 is $1500 cheaper than the MT.

Notice something? Some of these features are inherent to both cameras. As are some of the...

Things I don't like:

-No spirit levels! Keeee-rist. That's a design un-feature worthy of the codgers at GM.

-If you find yourself using complicated filtration (like the Lee system), the drop-bed situation can be a hassle. The holder, filters and hood can be impinged upon by the bed. This forces you to tilt the bed to the 15 deg detent, then, tip the front standard back to match. If your shot requires precisely parallel standards (architecture, poles, tall trees, etc) this isn't easy to achieve- there are no detents on the front standard at 15 deg, nor at 30. This is an engineering oversight, in my opinion. Makes me cuss in cold temperatures.

-No real front drop, unless you futz around a lot for the indirect, and then only a bit. I solved the problem by installing a tripod mounting plate on the top of the camera as well as the bottom; there's a mount under the hotshoe. By the way, the camera's serial number is on the hotshoe mount- the easiest piece to remove/lose/swap on the whole thing. WTF is up with that?

-If you prefer to focus by scale, (like your Horseman) there is a plastic rail on the bed of the 2000 upon which you may install your own mm scale- why wasn't it included from the beginning? Another Teutonic mystery.

-Impractical for the giant lenses a la 90/75 XL.

-Yup, it's heavy (but lighter than the MT).

With both these cameras, handholding is a fantasy, unless you're shooting very fast film- and/or are willing to accept less than perfectly sharp results.

I'm always on the tripod, and that's the key for your decision. If you're on it, you might as well use the glass and get the most from your 4x5 experience. If you plan on using movements, you'll have to be on the tripod anyway. The rangefinder is just extra weight at this point.

All in all I love the camera. I have a 45TKs also and I use the 2000 far more- I've found it to be a quick set up, a pleasure to use, and provides great results.

My apologies for the length of this post- I hope it helps with your decision.

[Varakan Ten Tipprapa]

If I have a second chance to buy it... I will choose for TK 2000.. I already have the classic one for three years, I never have any chance to use rangefinder ...

You will get older sooner or later, not only tripod (which mine is carbon already) ...you still need lighter camera for lighter set .. believe me..

[jhogan]

One correction to my previous post- there is a serial # on the body- under the hotshoe (also with the serial #). Mine was/is covered with the extra tripod mounting plate. Ooops, sorry 'bout that.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I don't have any problem with mounting the camera upside down. If I'm shooting view camera style and I think I might need front drop, I just leave the shoe in the case, and if I'm shooting rangefinder style and need the shoe, it's not an issue.

While it's true that any camera will make sharper images with a tripod, there are also certain kinds of shots that are best done handheld, and those benefit from a larger film format as much as anything. I often think that if I need a tripod, I might as well shoot 8x10" or 11x14", but if I need something light and handy, the little 4x5" Technika is just the thing. It's all relative.

[Brian_6142]

Wow, you guys have been extremely helpful, and I really appreciate all the comments and suggestions. I think it will take me some time to read all your comments a few times, absorb them and then make a decision. Thanks again for all your assistance.

[Bob Salomon]

While it is no longer made Linhof did offer an Outrigger Plate 003754 to mount a Technika upside down on strong, suitable tripods. It allowed you to mount the camera upside down and not remove the accessory shoe so the finder could still be used nd the shoe and retaing screw was less likely to get lost.

[jhogan]

Bob S, do you have a picture of the "Outrigger Plate?" I'd be interested in seeing an example of that solution.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I have one and can post an image this evening if no one else comes up with it first. Most people selling them don't know what it is and seem to think it is some sort of flash bracket.

[John_4185]

Sometimes I think you Linhof guys probably have brand-name tattoos, too.

And how much lighter is a RF Linhof from the 'box' model? I'll bet it ain't a big enough difference that you can't make up for it by leaving your pocket change at home.

[rob_5998]

B&H prices:

Master Technika Classic $ 6,298.95

Master Technika 2000 $ 5,499.95

thats Master Technika 2000 loose change of $ 799.00

JJ, You must have big deep pockets if thats just loose change to you!

[Bob Salomon]

E mailed you a picture of it a few moments ago. As David stated, it looks like a very large flash bracket but with a screw on the wrong side of the bracket.

[jhogan]

Bob or David- does it slide into the hotshoe?

[John_4185]

JJ, You must have big deep pockets if thats just loose change to you!

I was speaking of the WEIGHT difference of having an RF model or the 'Box' model. I suspect the difference is the weight of pocket change. And this whole obsession with a little weight just puzzles the hell out of me.

[Bob Salomon]

No. One end has a tripod screw to screw it into the camera's tripod shoe on the bottom of the body (not the one on the bed). The other end attaches on to the tripod head.

[David A. Goldfarb]

The outrigger arm has a 3/8" tripod screw on one side and a 3/8" tripod hole on the other side. The tripod screws into the hole, and the screw on the outrigger arm screws into the bottom tripod screw on the camera, suspending it upside down, without having to remove the accessory shoe. The camera is cantilevered out on the end of the arm.

[jhogan]

Bob (thanks for the pic) and David- Thanks for the explanation- I understand.

JJ- with regard to weight, my opinion is that the small difference between models really doesn't matter that much
(although to others it might- Roger Penske, perhaps?). The clever wide-angle mechanism is what attracted me- I use a 58 pretty regularly. The fact that I don't have to worry about damaging a delicate rangefinder mechanism (which I wouldn't be using on this camera) is a just icing, I guess. Nothing against RFs at all- I'm lucky enough to use an M7II regularly, and really enjoy it.

[John_4185]

jbhogan The fact that I don't have to worry about damaging a delicate rangefinder mechanism

Good point. While I have never had the experience of knocking the rangefinder off-kilter, perhaps others have so their experience is important.

I have never used the 58mm on LF so in that (and many other) regards, I am ignorant.

Best,

[Doug Dolde]

Badger has a mint used Linhof Master Technika 45 Classic listed now for $3495.

[Brian Ellis]

" it is a PITA to change cams"

Whoever said that must have a very sensitive A. Changing cams on the Technika is about like changing lenses, i.e. it does take a few seconds to do but not very many and it isn't the least bit difficult.

Having said that, if money wasn't an object I'd choose a 2000 over a Classic MT any day for landscape work. I have the Classic MT and it's my all-time favorite camera but I've never used the rangefinder for landscapes. Actually I've never used it for anything at all. The ability to conveniently use wide angle lenses with the 2000 for landscape work is IMHO much more important than the ability to use a rangefinder for that kind of work. You can use your 75mm lens with a Classic MT but it isn't all that easy, especially without a recessed lens board and recessed boards are a true PITA. And anything shorter than that requires a wide angle focusing device. While a 75mm lens may be the shortest you presently use, your tastes may change in the future and the 2000 will easily accomodate any changes, the Classic MT won't.

[Bob Salomon]

"but it isn't all that easy, especially without a recessed lens board and recessed boards are a true PITA. And anything shorter than that requires a wide angle focusing device."

Not any more with the latest recessed board. It has a surface mounted lever and scale to set the aperture without reaching into the recess and another lever and indicator on the side of the lens to open and close the press focus. A red dot on the board shows at a glance if the shutter is open or closed. It fits all Copal 0 shutters and includes the latest version of the Linhof Cable Release Quick Socket which uses a flexible cable rather then wires. This one screws into the cable release socket on the shutter which eliminates the old problem of the cable release wire slipping out of the socket on the shutter.

As for the Wide Angle Focus Device it is now out of production and we had purchased all that the factory had. These are now sold out. To use lenses wider then 72mm on the MT and the V and the IV Linhof will now supply lenses down to 38mm (at present) in a special helical mount that is mounted on a special board. There is a lever on the front of the board to rotate the helical. Each lens shorter then 72mm will have to be mounted on its own helical. Lenses can not be interchanged in the helical mount.

Of course this system is not needed for the 2000 as it has the extreme wide angle focusing device built into the body of the camera.

[Brian Ellis]

"Not any more with the latest recessed board."

That's interesting, I didn't know about a latest board. What does that board sell for retail in the U.S.?

[Bob Salomon]

Brian,

It is available 2 ways. As a 001015 it comes complete with all of the fittings and the scales for the various 0 shuttered lenses. It has a list price of $440.00. For the same board without the setting levers and scales it is sold as 001016. The scales and levers are available seperately for later installation The 001016 board lists for $399.00 and the set of levers and scales is $56.00. Also possibly needed with these new boards is a shim ring for the 72mm SA only. It is 300171.

Two things to bear in mind. First these are LIST prices. Not RETAIL prices. The RETAIL price is available from our dealers. Secondly 0015 and 0016 are the same catalog numbers as older Linhof recessed lens boards. The new board are easily identified as they are shallower then most earlier version of these catalog numbered boards, they have to extension in the middle of the board to move the lens forward on the baord and lastly there is a curved oval recess immediately above the recess for the aperture scale label and a red dot on the left side of the board that is the press focus indicator. If you have or are sold a board without the recess and the red dot it is an earlier version and does not accept these operating elements.

Currently we only have the latest version of the 001016 and we still have one of the 001015 immediately prior to the latest version as well as having the latest version in stock.

If these features appeal to you then make sure that your dealer orders the latest version.

None of these features make the board specific to the Linhof so if you have a Wista or any other camera that uses the Technika/TK lensboard thesse features will work the same way on those cameras as well.