View Full Version : How to get into ULF?
Dpatt711
1-Mar-2020, 17:40
I'm looking to try and get into ULF, but don't have a lot of film camera experience. I'm pretty good at fabrication and have access to laser cutter, milling machine, and 3d printers.
Is building my own camera a practical idea, and if so how much can I expect to spend?
Michael Kadillak
1-Mar-2020, 18:05
I'm looking to try and get into ULF, but don't have a lot of film camera experience. I'm pretty good at fabrication and have access to laser cutter, milling machine, and 3d printers.
Is building my own camera a practical idea, and if so how much can I expect to spend?
Talk to Jim Fitzgerald on this forum. Jim has extensive experience in this regard having built several cameras for himself. He can surely get you in the right zip code on such a project. ULF throws a wide net so it would be a good idea to narrow your interest down to a particular format in this arena and if you want to venture into one of the panaromic formats or the rectangular formats. Good Luck!
Dpatt711
1-Mar-2020, 19:06
Talk to Jim Fitzgerald on this forum. Jim has extensive experience in this regard having built several cameras for himself. He can surely get you in the right zip code on such a project. ULF throws a wide net so it would be a good idea to narrow your interest down to a particular format in this arena and if you want to venture into one of the panaromic formats or the rectangular formats. Good Luck!
Okay I'll give him a shout.
It would be cheaper to build ULF and shoot wet plate rather than film.
Kent in SD
I built my 11x14 camera for ~$500 and then another 250 for a couple film holders. It was two year and an absurd amount of trail and error. There was probably an extra $100 in there of stuff that I thought I'd use and then didn't, because, again, trail and error.
Cherry wood for both standards & long arca-swiss plates for focusing rails and front & rear shift and a arca-swiss clamp pan head on the front standard for swing.
But I did it all with a box saw, a drill, and a detail sander, and I'm not good at fabrication.
angusparker
1-Mar-2020, 19:57
The problem in ULF is the film holders. Always buy a camera with holders, they are almost always non-standard. The cheapest option is a 7x17 banquet camera.
If you are building a camera I would also start with a holder on hand for the format you want. Also consider the availability of film, unless you are doing wet plate.
Some info here for those on the search for best ULF format: https://www.angusparkerphoto.com/blog/2016/2/what-is-the-ULF-format-for-you
Jim Fitzgerald
1-Mar-2020, 20:30
I'm looking to try and get into ULF, but don't have a lot of film camera experience. I'm pretty good at fabrication and have access to laser cutter, milling machine, and 3d printers.
Is building my own camera a practical idea, and if so how much can I expect to spend?
Building a ULF camera is possible with the tools you have available that is for sure. You need to decide on which size you wish to build and then find a design you like. I do not use any plans so don't ask for plans from me but rather I study a camera design and build from the pictures I have of it. For my recent 14x17 I think I spent just under $1,000. Now I have connections for some of the difficult parts and have a full woodshed and I'm a decent woodworker.
You need to get the film holder first and work from there. There is so much information on this site and on the web as well. Do your research! That is what I did for each build. It will make you a better builder as there are no shortcuts. I've built nine cameras and seven of them are ULF so research is key. Purpose build it. By this I mean don't put a huge bellows on the camera unless you intend to do still life close ups. Will it be in the studio or the field?
For bellows, Custom Bellows in England is the place to go. By all means have fun as you go.
Now if you wish I have a 14x17 which can with a back built for it do 16x20 as well available. It comes with the backpack, two S&S film holders, a 25 sheet box of J&C 200 or Bergger 200 I can't remember, a 24 inch Artar on a 9 inch lens board, a complete system for $3,000.00 plus shipping. You will not find a better deal anywhere on a system like this. You can shoot 14x17 X-ray film as well.Just supply the tripod and you are shooting ULF. It is built from extruded 80/20 aluminum with a Walnut veneer. If you are interested pm me. Best of luck. BTW the camera I'm showing here is my new 14x17 and NOT the one for sale.
Kiwi7475
1-Mar-2020, 20:49
I’m reading this after I just came back from a long day hiking with my 8x10, carrying 3 lenses, 6 holders, and the usual accessories.... plus food, water, etc, and the prospect of doing something like what I did but with a 11x14 or larger camera is simultaneously as captivating as is frightening. The weight is barely sustainable as is with my 8x10 pack.... but I envy you guys and your big guns. Now, if I was into portraiture I’d be all over ULF.
Jim Fitzgerald
1-Mar-2020, 20:54
I still manage to hick although not as far as when I was younger with all of my ULF gear. With ULF you don't carry but one holder, one lens and some snacks. It actually weights less than my 8x10 system because like you I carry more. I workout a lot and stay in shape and at 70 I'm still getting out there.
Kiwi7475
1-Mar-2020, 21:13
I still manage to hick although not as far as when I was younger with all of my ULF gear. With ULF you don't carry but one holder, one lens and some snacks. It actually weights less than my 8x10 system because like you I carry more. I workout a lot and stay in shape and at 70 I'm still getting out there.
You are right that an 8x10 system can weight more because.... well simply because you *can* actually carry more holders, lenses, etc. Whereas perhaps it isn’t really an option if you go any larger (unless you’re a bodybuilder, lol). Perhaps I need to think of carrying only one lens and one holder with the 8x10 as well, which would make the hike a lot less demanding...
Steven Tribe
2-Mar-2020, 02:58
I'm looking to try and get into ULF, but don't have a lot of film camera experience. I'm pretty good at fabrication and have access to laser cutter, milling machine, and 3d printers.
Is building my own camera a practical idea, and if so how much can I expect to spend?
Building a ULF camera can be a very rewarding experience. It can also take a very long time and become more expensive than actually buying a new (old) one. You also have the problem that your interest in ULF may have evaporated by the time you are ready to take photographs!
I don't know if I have been especialy fortunate (easy access to the European and UK "Markets"), but I have been able to get hold of the following ULF format cameras (WITH Plate holders) during the last 10 years at prices averaging around 300€.
2 10x12" cameras
2 24x30cm cameras ( and many more were available!)
3 30x40cm cameras (approx. 12x16")
2 12x15" cameras
These are all either UK type field cameras or tailboard travel cameras.
If you are interested in the sizes above 12x16", then self manufacture is probably the most economical way to do as recent commercial manufacture is (Necessarily!) very expensive. Perhaps Intrepid cameras could extend their range upwards?
Apart from these, there have been over 5 Studio Cameras which still had the original 24x30cm plate holders (Much planned use of ULF is for Portraits!)
I think a lot of people loose their way in making cameras and plate holders and never get round to making images and working with these images.
blue4130
2-Mar-2020, 04:07
I built my 10x12 using extruded aluminum and wood scraps in my apartment. It's a tailboard design and way to heavy to be portable, but it has been a fine portrait camera. The largest expense was the bellows. I opted to have those custom made and they set me back roughly $250. It's not beautiful, but it does the job.
Building a ULF camera can be hard or as easy as a cardboard box loaded with one sheet of film in a darkroom, lens can be a pinhole or...
Look around our DIY sections for ideas
Here is a very difficult one, but obviously not impossible
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?144611-DIY-ULF-Camera&p=1433041&viewfull=1#post1433041
Started out with buying a wooden 11x14 Burke & James Commercial view. Used it for maybe 10 years then took it apart, stripped the gray paint, and stained the wood. Looked like an almost new camera. Sold it to get a mint condition 11x14 Improved Empire State camera. Camera's wood was amazingly unfinished, as far as I could tell the camera was ever even used. Took it apart and stained the wood. Then sold it to partially pay for a new 11x14 Chamonix which I now use.
As for holders, acquired several 11x14 film holders from a State Surplus store for very little money. When my father was receiving radiation treatments, befriended the staff in the Radiology Department. Near the end of his treatments, one of the staff asked me if I wanted a bunch of their 8x10, 11x14, and 14x17 Medical film holders since they did not use them any more. Couldn't say "yes" and "thanks" fast enough. Ended up selling my collection of holders slowly, one or two at a time. Money from the sales went for purchasing 3 new 11x14 Chamonix holders.
Acquire, use, refinish, sell, and acquire again, use, refinish, and sell again. Saw an 14x17 Empire State view camera at an antiques dealer a few years ago. Was tempted to do the same with it but had already sold my 14x17 holders and now rather spend my time just shooting with my 11x14 instead of going through the whole acquire, use, refinish. etc. Bought the camera and sold it to acquire another lens for my 11x14.
C. D. Keth
2-Mar-2020, 11:23
Step one would seem to be either “win the lottery” or “inherit money.”
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Jim Fitzgerald
2-Mar-2020, 11:36
Looks like we scared off the OP already! I will say that if you want to get into ULF or LF for that matter you must have a passion for it or I think you are wasting your time and money. Commit to it, do the research and get to it. There is plenty of info out there or take advantage of the great deals to be had as well. I built my first camera, my 8x20 with nothing more than hand tools. A sander, dremel, drill and other assorted hand tools nothing fancy at all. The passion for it is what got it done.
Tracy Storer
2-Mar-2020, 13:01
I'm looking to try and get into ULF, but don't have a lot of film camera experience. I'm pretty good at fabrication and have access to laser cutter, milling machine, and 3d printers.
Is building my own camera a practical idea, and if so how much can I expect to spend?
I would suggest finding an inexpensive 8"x10" set up and working with it for a few months(shoot, process your own film, make prints) before considering ULF. Smaller than 8"x10" won't, in my opinion, give you enough of a handle on what you'll be dealing with by going larger. The good news: there are a lot of 8x10 cameras and lenses available very affordably.
Good Luck.
Jim Fitzgerald
2-Mar-2020, 13:47
I would suggest finding an inexpensive 8"x10" set up and working with it for a few months(shoot, process your own film, make prints) before considering ULF. Smaller than 8"x10" won't, in my opinion, give you enough of a handle on what you'll be dealing with by going larger. The good news: there are a lot of 8x10 cameras and lenses available very affordably.
Good Luck.
Great advice.
C. D. Keth
2-Mar-2020, 14:35
Great advice.
Very. I’d hate to know how much money I would have wasted if it were big film I was/am messing up. It was bad enough learning on 4x5 and 5x7.
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Dpatt711
2-Mar-2020, 17:43
So if I use Xray film I can do 5x7 @ $0.93 per, 14x17 @ $5.62 per incl. Processing. Is this worthwhile over actual photo film?
ic-racer
2-Mar-2020, 18:10
What camera do you have now? I'd dry the X ray film and see how it works for you with your existing equipment. Processing it and printing it can be challenging due to its speed, sensitivity (or lack thereof) and two-sided emulsion.
I would suggest finding an inexpensive 8"x10" set up and working with it for a few months(shoot, process your own film, make prints) before considering ULF. Smaller than 8"x10" won't, in my opinion, give you enough of a handle on what you'll be dealing with by going larger. The good news: there are a lot of 8x10 cameras and lenses available very affordably.
Good Luck.
As an 8x10 user, I agree. I started with 4x5, and it was several months and about two-three boxes of film before I started getting consistently good. I'd hate to think of what that would have cost me if shooting a bigger format.
Kent in SD
So if I use Xray film I can do 5x7 @ $0.93 per, 14x17 @ $5.62 per incl. Processing. Is this worthwhile over actual photo film?
It would be a great way to start, do some testing and all that sort of stuff before buying actual photo film...you might find that x-ray film can actually be photo film, too! X-ray film can usually be loaded and processed under a red safe light, which is a great way to get use to that process.
Jim Noel
3-Mar-2020, 09:45
Carestream, EB/RA is a single sided , 8x10 x-ray film with notch code. Expose at EI 100, develop in normal developers diluted such as HC110 1+60 or 1+100 nder tested red safe light. $0.85 per sheet. hard to beat.
still got 14X17" Ektascan, good to cut in 1/2 too
none for sale
I practice/test with double sided X-Ray which is still available up to 14X17" and 14X36" for truly ULF
https://www.zzmedical.com/analog-x-ray-supplies/x-ray-film/carestream-x-ray-film/14x36-in-full-length-agfa-x-ray-film.html
Kiwi7475
3-Mar-2020, 10:12
Carestream, EB/RA is a single sided , 8x10 x-ray film with notch code. Expose at EI 100, develop in normal developers diluted such as HC110 1+60 or 1+100 nder tested red safe light. $0.85 per sheet. hard to beat.
Where do you buy it from? I can’t seem to find it unless I buy 500 sheets at ~$800 directly from carestream. Zzmedical only carries B/RA
Call ZZ on a telephone
I have been warning people X-Ray WILL become extinct
Where do you buy it from? I can’t seem to find it unless I buy 500 sheets at ~$800 directly from carestream. Zzmedical only carries B/RA
Jim Fitzgerald
3-Mar-2020, 10:31
Where do you buy it from? I can’t seem to find it unless I buy 500 sheets at ~$800 directly from carestream. Zzmedical only carries B/RA
You have to buy 500 sheets for the single sided film. The double sided works great and is the cheaper way to go. ZZ medical has it last time I checked.
How to get into ULF? Check your pockets and couch cushions to see if you have an extra $5K lying around. Otherwise I would recommend working out the kinks with 8x10 max, and only because you can still shoot for under $1/shot with X-ray film. The only way I can afford it was because I was already dealing small format photo gear as a hobby, so I was able to buy 8x10 gear at bargain prices when the opportunity arose. 10 years later I'm close to having a setup I like. I gave up ULF in very short order when I realized I would never be able to backpack the gear to shoot what I enjoy, and I wasn't prepared to switch to portraits or still life just to say I was shooting 11x14 instead of 8x10.
Kiwi7475
3-Mar-2020, 12:54
Call ZZ on a telephone
I have been warning people X-Ray WILL become extinct
I just talked to them and basically the said that at this time they do not have a source for it but are still working on it.....
FrancisF
3-Mar-2020, 13:12
"Anything worth doing is worth doing badly."
I would agree that trying your hand at 4 x 5 would be worth your time to understand the work flow and process. Then you can jump to ULF if you wish. When I jumped in to 20x24 I just built a black form board and duct tape box camera. The foam board film holder was a bit trickier, but can be done. Save the money on film and a lens. Watch ebay obsessively for some out of date real film. Or paper negatives.
I had a good experience with this approach (gateway) before I bought a proper camera. You will be at $5,000 in no time.
C. D. Keth
3-Mar-2020, 14:24
...and I wasn't prepared to switch to portraits or still life just to say I was shooting 11x14 instead of 8x10.
That does kind of kill me about the ULF work shown on this site and elsewhere. I can only take so many 20x24 pictures of bored old men, flowers in wine bottles, and arranged toys/veg/fruit/hand tools.
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Very true, I resemble that, to be truthful
By necessity I must use a studio, I will try to branch out to trees...and decrepit buildings which abound here, if I don't get shot
rearranging studio right now, pushing around 3 giant cameras
I figure we all may be staying home for a while...
and I left the pretty women in the big city 3 years ago
we do what we can as long as we can, then our replacements may show up
hopefully
That does kind of kill me about the ULF work shown on this site and elsewhere. I can only take so many 20x24 pictures of bored old men, flowers in wine bottles, and arranged toys/veg/fruit/hand tools.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Very true, I resemble that, to be truthful
By necessity I must use a studio, I will try to branch out to trees...and decrepit buildings which abound here, if I don't get shot
rearranging studio right now, pushing around 3 giant cameras
I figure we all may be staying home for a while...
and I left the pretty women in the big city 3 years ago
we do what we can as long as we can, then our replacements may show up
hopefully
Indeed I am not saying I never will switch to portraits and still lifes. I have shifted once or twice before, and my joints are deteriorating faster than my doctor can replace them. My studio camera on a wheeled platform may yet become my weapon of choice.
dodphotography
4-Mar-2020, 08:36
That does kind of kill me about the ULF work shown on this site and elsewhere. I can only take so many 20x24 pictures of bored old men, flowers in wine bottles, and arranged toys/veg/fruit/hand tools.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ultimately that's what separates artists and from practitioners ... artists use LF / ULF almost as if they're 35mm snapshots. Whereas practitioners are more marveled by the process of learning and executing said knowledge and ultimately end up with those boring still lives etc, which are still admirable in the sense that yes, I developed a perfect 16x20 negative but like Ansel said... nothing worse than a sharp print of a fuzzy idea.
Jim Fitzgerald
4-Mar-2020, 10:34
A lot of great comments but what happened to the OP? Did he get the information he/she needed? Did we scare them away? ULF is awesome to create with but you need to commit to it. There are ways to do it inexpensively with paper negatives and x-ray film but holders, cameras and tripods are where you will spend the money and do not want to go cheap. If you have minimal experience start with 8x10 and contact print. This is what I did. When I wanted a bigger print I then built a bigger camera and it went on and on from there. There has to be a real desire.... a passion for it or you are just wasting your time and money. Once you get those big negatives hit me up and I'll teach you how to make carbon prints!
Andrew Plume
4-Mar-2020, 12:09
It would be cheaper to build ULF and shoot wet plate rather than film.
Kent in SD
Definitely, not to mention the unique 'one of a kind' result
Andrew
Andrew Plume
4-Mar-2020, 12:10
The problem in ULF is the film holders. Always buy a camera with holders, they are almost always non-standard. The cheapest option is a 7x17 banquet camera.
If you are building a camera I would also start with a holder on hand for the format you want. Also consider the availability of film, unless you are doing wet plate.
Some info here for those on the search for best ULF format: https://www.angusparkerphoto.com/blog/2016/2/what-is-the-ULF-format-for-you
Very sound advice Angus - the devil is in the holders and go from there
regards
Andrew
Andrew Plume
5-Mar-2020, 11:34
AND...................
there's a simply staggering 18 x 22 Empire State for auction later this month in the US - near 'museum quality', c/w a lens, just one problem, however..................................yep, no holders
Andrew
FrancisF
6-Mar-2020, 12:27
That does kind of kill me about the ULF work shown on this site and elsewhere. I can only take so many 20x24 pictures of bored old men, flowers in wine bottles, and arranged toys/veg/fruit/hand tools.
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I agree there is much repetition in the field but I would suggest that these men are not "bored" but grizzled :) You comment did inspire me to actually try flowers in ULF. Will see if I can do something of interest
Dpatt711
6-Mar-2020, 18:32
A lot of great comments but what happened to the OP? Did he get the information he/she needed? Did we scare them away? ULF is awesome to create with but you need to commit to it. There are ways to do it inexpensively with paper negatives and x-ray film but holders, cameras and tripods are where you will spend the money and do not want to go cheap. If you have minimal experience start with 8x10 and contact print. This is what I did. When I wanted a bigger print I then built a bigger camera and it went on and on from there. There has to be a real desire.... a passion for it or you are just wasting your time and money. Once you get those big negatives hit me up and I'll teach you how to make carbon prints!
Still keeping up. I think I will start with X-ray just because I have it and can process it for free. I only have blue sensitive but I'm assuming I can switch between blue and green without changing physical equipment. The second thing I'm trying to decide on is size. I can get 5x7 at $0.97 per so I think I'll start there
Jim Fitzgerald
6-Mar-2020, 21:25
Still keeping up. I think I will start with X-ray just because I have it and can process it for free. I only have blue sensitive but I'm assuming I can switch between blue and green without changing physical equipment. The second thing I'm trying to decide on is size. I can get 5x7 at $0.97 per so I think I'll start there
Awesome. Glad we can help. Good idea to start small and go from there. Small for me is 8x10, makes a great contact print. Good luck.
HalideReducer
24-Jun-2020, 09:39
Has anyone tried to create a ULF Afghan style box/instant camera? I mostly shoot landscapes and nature, but I'm thinking about spending time on portraits and still life. To that end I'm learning on 4x5 and 5x7 but thinking about 11x14.
I figure such a beast might have a 25" lens on it and need ~50" to the film plane to get to 1:1. So the overall box would be ~60" x 18" x 16" and have room for a developing trays inside. Focus using a rod to push/pull the film plane inside the box. This would be huge, so I'd transport it either in my van or on a bicycle trailer for shooting around town.
No bellows hassle, self-contained darkroom for "instant" paper prints, really simple to build, but it's kind of bulky. How crazy am I thinking?
William Whitaker
24-Jun-2020, 10:53
Is building my own camera a practical idea, and if so how much can I expect to spend?
For some it can be the path to nirvana. For others, it's an ever-deepening rabbit hole.
Andrew Plume
24-Jun-2020, 12:23
Well 'Dpatt711', Will Whit has from memory some experience in using ULF Cameras, Jim Fitzgerald (also on here) makes his own and JB Harlin (who may not be on here) made some absolutely blinding Cameras for himself and his wife......................
Anyhow, it doesn't have to be beautiful, check out Chris McCaw's work and his images, his self builds are nicely rustic and I recall from an interview with him when 'View Camera' Mag was still going that he used parts from an 8 x 20 Korona, his work particularly in Platinum of the famly Farm in California was really really good. If you can access a Camera back with a couple of matching film holders then you're literally 'away, you can knock the rest up with a cardboard box if you want to......
So it's good luck from me in the UK
regards
Andrew
Mark Sawyer
24-Jun-2020, 16:44
"Re: How to get into ULF? "
Just take the back off and crawl in!
:p :p :p
Seriously, you folks should talk to the moderators about banning me from the forum...
Roger Thoms
24-Jun-2020, 18:54
"Re: How to get into ULF? "
Just take the back off and crawl in!
:p :p :p
Seriously, you folks should talk to the moderators about banning me from the forum...
Naw, then we wouldn’t get to see anymore Pixie photos.
Roger.
Thom Bennett
30-Jun-2020, 07:20
The best and most effective way to get into ULF is to find some poor sap like me who thought he was going to be the next Art Sinsabaugh and offer him a few coins and the vague promise that his soul will finally find peace without the crushing financial and spiritual burden of feeding the ULF beast.
MAubrey
30-Jun-2020, 12:54
For some it can be the path to nirvana. For others, it's an ever-deepening rabbit hole.
And there the small few for whom it's both!
"Re: How to get into ULF? "
Just take the back off and crawl in!
This is what I did.
205638
No issues with film holders when you develop inside the camera.
It is not very portable though.
But where is the cat, inside or out?
But where is the cat, inside or out?
No animal cruelty was involved.
But you gave me an interesting idea. 1:1 cat portraits. Though I wonder how to get a cat to pose for 4 seconds.
Mark Sawyer
9-Jul-2020, 10:59
Until the image is developed, the cat will be both in and out of focus.
How to get into ULF?
1st step: Open wallet.
:o
Until the image is developed, the cat will be both in and out of focus.
For a quantum cat, yes, but the moment is actually taking the picture, not developing it. A quantum cat is neither in focus or out of focus but by taking the picture (i.e. making a measurement) we force it to take a side. Now if we had a dangled cat that has an opposite sign, we would know now that when our cat is in focus, the tangled cat would be not.
Mark Sawyer
10-Jul-2020, 00:24
I' sorry, but forum rules forbid the discussion of politics, religion, and how to wrangle the angle of an entangled cat's dangle...
Tin Can
10-Jul-2020, 04:28
No critters were injured or killed in this thread
Many ways to skin a cat
Robert Brazile
16-Jul-2020, 06:59
I' sorry, but forum rules forbid the discussion of politics, religion, and how to wrangle the angle of an entangled cat's dangle...
Bravo.
Michael Roberts
18-Jul-2020, 11:33
This is what I did.
205638
No issues with film holders when you develop inside the camera.
It is not very portable though.
Holy smokes, erian! What do you do with this beast? Portraits? What film/size are you using?
Ah, okay, found this post: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?158022-Human-sized-camera&p=1550581&viewfull=1#post1550581
MAubrey
21-Jul-2020, 07:11
This is what I did.
205638
No issues with film holders when you develop inside the camera.
It is not very portable though.
That's definitely the best way to get *INTO* ULF!
Jim Noel
21-Jul-2020, 09:28
My first attempt to respond went somewhere before I finished.
Getting into ULF does not have to be expensive if you are patient. My 1st was a 7x17 Korona with 2 holders and a contact printing frame. Cost $350
At 85 I decided I needed to lighten up so I began a search for a 5x12 Korona. It took a while but eventually I found one.It came with 2 film holders and one plate holder. again, $350. I picked up 3 new holders fro $125 each.
Lenses I had gathered over the many years I have been in LF. so no new investment.
Film- Ilford annual order, and X-ray. The x-ray film for 7x17 was about $35/100, the 5x12 a little less. I did buy one new to me lens for the 5x12.
These are old cameras, I use lenses of the same vintage or older, develop in seed starting trays by inspection under an ancient red safelight. My preference for scenics, in fact everything but female portraits, has been orthochromatic film, so when I discovered x-ray film I was very happy.
If your vision. like mine, tends more towards panoramic, the time, money and effort are very worthwhile.
Have fun,
Jim
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