Advice on a spare-time project? 4x4 back and holders

[David R Munson]

I've had an idea lodged in my head for a long enough time that I want to start work on it. There is no deadline, I don't mind working slowly in my spare minutes and hours to make something worthwhile.

I love square format, and have several 6x6 MF cameras on hand, but I also miss working with a view camera. I need movements. I know I can just shoot 4x5 or whatever and crop to square, but I'd rather have a camera set up to shoot 4x4 with a custom back and holders.

The camera itself is not firmly established. I have a Toyo 4x5 monorail so that's what I'll concentrate on for now, but only because I already have it. Eventually I'd like another field camera.

The goal is to have modified film holders and a modified back to work with 4x4 cut film, which I'll cut down from 4x5 with a stack cutter.

If you were to go about such a ridiculous pursuit, how would you go about it? Keeping in mind that just cropping 4x5 later isn't a thing in this discussion.

[Tin Can]

K.I.S.S.

Mask GG and splitter

No need to cut film

I like this idea and made a 11X11” Pinhole box

[LabRat]

That got into my head also, but I wanted to get up a little closer to subjects where it becomes less of an scene, but more of the zone where the image becomes much more form oriented... And I was tired of just using some 6x6 format camera... I didn't need movements so much, and just wanted a camera that could "see" differently... I ended up using my 4x5 Graflex Super D RB with a Graflex 22 6x6 back, and that was transformative as it seems to "see" in a 40's f64 group way, and with a 200mm or longer lens AND handholding, it seems to have a vision of its own...

I recommend finding a non-standard camera than the one you are using (to create a bigger difference and vision) and start from there...

About 100 years ago, there was a minor trend for square image cameras (probably for plates to make lantern slides)... These are sometimes available, but cameras, holders etc are very old and need much restoration to use... Old makes like Premo, Thornton-Piccard etc may of had cameras that could do square... And other Euro makes... But maybe for plates only...

You said you didn't want to hear this, but here it goes; If you dedicated a (let's say a 4X5) with a permanent masked GG and finder (like some technical 4X5) so all you would ever see is a square format through it, we might be able to convince our brains that this camera shoots just squares (maybe even have a slightly oversize mask in front of film to limit excess format)...

I realize the problem is psychological, as we tend to accept the camera format as natural and work with it, instead of us applying new proportions to an image area and working with it...

If you look up Stiglitz and see the camera original negs, he always "re-proportioned" (let's not use that bad word and mood killer, "cropped") to wonderful new non-camera windows...

But we have developed compulsive habits about only seeing what the camera tells us to see, so a good exercise to see differently and make our own choices (like making good GG masks, and being brave enough to see through printing the image as seen, and not worry about the tiny excess on the neg that didn't get in the image!!!

Be Bold, as this is Large Format and the neg has a lot to give!!!

Steve K

[Doremus Scudder]

The simplest approach to me would be to modify standard 4x5 holders by adding a mask to bring it to 4x5 (or two masks, one at each end so the 4x4 segment ends up in the middle). Then you would simply mask your ground-glass accordingly. Yes, you'd have 4x5 sheets of film with a 4x4 image on them, but those will fit nicely in a masked 4x5 holder for your enlarger and fit well in standard storage pages, etc. Or, you could use scissors to trim away the excess if you really need the film to be 4x4.

Personally, I rarely print in the 4x5 aspect ratio even though I use 4x5 film. My images are in an infinite variety of aspect ratios, determined by the subject matter. I simply crop when enlarging. Using the standard film size and holders allows me the most flexibility.

Best,

Doremus

[Bob Salomon]

The simplest approach to me would be to modify standard 4x5 holders by adding a mask to bring it to 4x5 (or two masks, one at each end so the 4x4 segment ends up in the middle). Then you would simply mask your ground-glass accordingly. Yes, you'd have 4x5 sheets of film with a 4x4 image on them, but those will fit nicely in a masked 4x5 holder for your enlarger and fit well in standard storage pages, etc. Or, you could use scissors to trim away the excess if you really need the film to be 4x4.

Personally, I rarely print in the 4x5 aspect ratio even though I use 4x5 film. My images are in an infinite variety of aspect ratios, determined by the subject matter. I simply crop when enlarging. Using the standard film size and holders allows me the most flexibility.

Best,

Doremus

Even easier, mask off the gg, I would just make pencil lines for 4x4 and then take a standard 45 negative holder and mask the ends to make a 4x4 image area. Job should take no more then ½ hour.

Other wise, take the time and effort if you only want to make 4x4 contact prints. But even that can easily be done by masking.

One way to mask use to be make Kodalith masks. One for the gg, one to sandwich with the film in the negative carrier and one for the contact printer.

[Mark Sampson]

Paul Strand disliked the proportions of 5x7, so he masked both the groundglass and the film gate to his preferred format- I believe it was 5x6-1/4". That was on a 5x7 Graflex SLR, no reason why you can't adapt that idea.

[David R Munson]

A gentle nudge re: all replies thus far: masking the GG, holder, etc isn't what I'm after. I'm going to modify a back and either make or modify a set of holders that will shoot 4x4" cut film natively. If I can make it work well enough, I'll be building a second setup for a friend/client who is interested in the same thing.

I am well aware that cropping at the printing stage, masking the film in the camera, etc would be a far easier and more practical, but this isn't a matter of ease or practicality. I like solving technical problems and modifying/building stuff. This is a fun design/engineering/building project for me that relates to something both I and a client want.

So how about this question as a more specific starting point: do you know of any existing 4x5 holders that are held together with screws (I could also drill out rivets) so that I could take the whole thing apart, cut things down, and put back together?

[Darren Kruger]

Instead of trying to scale down a 4x5 camera, have you thought of looking at some 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 cameras and seeing if it would be easier to scale it up?

-Darren

[Vaughn]

...
If you were to go about such a ridiculous pursuit, how would you go about it? ....

I would go 8x8. :cool: But keeping it in line here...

I would find an old beater wood 4x5, take a slice out of camera back, and glue it back together as a 4x4. Might be able to do the same with old wood 4x5 film holders. Might be easier to do keeping the holders one-sided? Use the otherside to reinforce it.

I have some old 4.25x6.5 plate holders that literally fell apart...the glue failed after a hundred years or so.. Kinda fun glueing them back together.

I know, but you said ridiculous. I remember some very old all-metal holders...one could probably cut out a slice and weld the two parts back again.

Just noticed this -- might as well 3D print what you want! https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?157000-A-simple-and-practical-4x5-snapshot-camera

[Oslolens]

I would 3D-print the camera, but keep the standard filmholders. 4x4 would make a nice format. Look up Will-travel

Sent fra min SM-G975F via Tapatalk

[Jimi]

So how about this question as a more specific starting point: do you know of any existing 4x5 holders that are held together with screws (I could also drill out rivets) so that I could take the whole thing apart, cut things down, and put back together?

The only ones I have seen that comes to mind right now are Linhof holders, both the Auswerfer variation and the normal film ones. I have never taken them apart, so can't tell you whether they fall to pieces when the screws are taken out or if they are just for show.

[Havoc]

If you were to go about such a ridiculous pursuit, how would you go about it?

Wouldn't be the first ridiculous project I started. Problem is always finishing them because at some point I mostly come to the conclusion I bit of more then I can chew.

I'd say get Alan Greene's "primitive photography" book and adapt the drawings in the book to your liking. The cameras don't have movements other than for focusing. But you'd get a working camera, back, gg etc and can get experience. If you don't need more than simple movements then something like a russian fkd might be an option.

I would keep 4x5 film and backs, just because the rest of the chain after taking the photo is easier. There are developing tanks, negative holders for the scanner etc. Making the camera is one thing, but I'd rather no go into making development tanks if I can avoid it. Maybe use the 1" strip to note info (number of the back, exposure data, data/time...), like in a data back with 35mm cameras? (now you've given me an idea....)

[David R Munson]

Ok, so there’s a lot I want to respond to point-by-point. Good ideas are happening and I appreciate all the responses. I’ll follow up in greater detail when I’m not on a moving train.

Also, as this project eventually gets moving, I'll continue to update here. I'll probably also blog about it and may even make some videos. As I said originally, this is a fun side project for spare time, so it may take a while, but I've been thinking about it for at least two years so it's going to happen.

[Michael Roberts]

Make a 4x4 reducing back for your 4x5 camera. Make DS holders using 3M ATG tape.

See here https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?60964-DIY-Filmholders&p=576532&viewfull=1#post576532

And here https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?120318-fabricating-wooden-camera-backs-reducing-backs-expansion-and-enlarging-backs&p=1219714&viewfull=1#post1219714