Hypo Clearing Agent = Ilford Washaid? I am confused!

[Goncalo]

Hello,

I am confused about these chemicals. Is Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent the same as Ilford Washaid?
Or Ilford Washaid is the same as Kodak Photo -Flo?
Or in another away, is there any substitute for Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent?

Thank you
Best

[Oren Grad]

Ilford Wash Aid is a substitute for Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent.

[Richard Wasserman]

As is Heico Wash Aid. That said I use 1 tablespoon of Sodium Sulfite in a liter of water and mix it fresh for each darkroom session. No shelf life worries...

[Greg]

HYPO REMOVER: 5-10% solution of sodium carbonate or bicarbonate for 5 minutes

For years used PERMAWASH by HEICO, not sure if it is still around though

Richard's 1 tbs of sodium sulfite in 1 liter of water have been using for years. Years ago acquired a case of sealed bottles of sodium sulfite from a state surplus store which will probably be a life supply for me.

[John Layton]

I've been using Perma Wash (Heico) for years...but it gets a little expensive when I'm doing a number of large (30x40 and 40x60) prints. I like the sodium sulfite idea.

[Mark Sampson]

Kodak HCA has a little sodium BI-sulfite in it too... presumably for use with film. Shouldn't make much difference with prints though.

[Jim Jones]

Kodak Photo-Flo reduces surface tension in the final film wash so the water doesn't bead up and dry slow with the possibility of residue on the film due to contaminates in the water. I used it for many decades with distilled water, and wouldn't ever want to develop film without it.

[esearing]

HYPO REMOVER: 5-10% solution of sodium carbonate or bicarbonate for 5 minutes


isn't A&H BakingSoda = sodium bicarbonate? and Washing Soda = Sodium carbonate? You can turn baking soda into washing soda by heating it for 30 minutes. Readily available in Grocery and in bulk at dollar stores.

[Rick A]

Hello,

I am confused about these chemicals. Is Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent the same as Ilford Washaid?
Or Ilford Washaid is the same as Kodak Photo -Flo?
Or in another away, is there any substitute for Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent?

Thank you
Best

Kodak HCA and Ilford Washaid are basically the same.
HCA and "photo-flo" are not the same, photo-flo is a surfactant that allows water to sheet off film for spot free drying. HCA is used to speed up washing fixer residue from film and fiber based prints allowing for water conservation. It is not really necessary for film unless you are using a hardening fixer.
There are several brands of hypo clearing agent aka wash aids.

[Doremus Scudder]

Just to get the vocabulary straight on post-fixing stuff for those not yet in the know:

Wash aid: Helps to displace fixer by-products through ion exchange. Typically used before the final wash. Brand names include Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, Ilford Washaid and Heico Perma Wash. As mentioned, it's easy to mix your own. I use one Tsp of sodium sulfite and a pinch of sodium metabisulfite (bisulfite) per liter.

Wetting agent: A surfactant to keep water from beading up on the surface of film, typically used as a last step before hanging film to dry (i.e., after the wash). Brand names include Kodak Photo Flo and Ilford Ilfotol.

Disambiguation: "Hypo eliminator" is a term used by Ilford for their wash aid. Kodak used to use the term for a different product that was based on hydrogen peroxide and is no longer recommended. The formula is still out there, however; just don't use it.

Best,

Doremus

[Goncalo]

Thank you guys for the help!
All of great value!


Enviado do meu iPhone usando o Tapatalk

[Old_Dick]

Doremus,

Is the shelf life and usability the same as other OTC "Hypo eliminators"?

[Doremus Scudder]

Doremus,
Is the shelf life and usability the same as other OTC "Hypo eliminators"?

I assume you're asking about wash aids? E.g., Hypo Clearing Agent, etc.?

Shelf life for powdered Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent is indefinite as long as the package is undamaged. Storage life for the solutions is as follows from Kodak: "Storage Life: Mixed Working Solution In a tray-24 hours, stock solution in a tightly-stoppered bottle-3 months."

Ilford Washaid comes as a liquid concentrate meant to be mixed 1+4 (similar to the recommended stock solution of Kodak's Hypo Clearing Agent). The storage life from Ilford: "ILFORD WASHAID concentrate will keep for:- 4 years in full airtight bottles - 6 months in half full tightly capped bottles. Working strength - 7 working days."

The above from Kodak and Ilford respectively.

Note that the working solution lifespan is different from Kodak to Ilford. The MSDS from Ilford shows some ingredients that may be a kind of preservative/oxygen scavenger that extends the life of the solution. Hypo Clearing Agent lacks these; it only has sulfite, metabisufite, sodium citrate and EDTA (these latter two preservatives and chelating agents for hard water).

A homemade wash aid at working strength that consists only of sodium sulfite and metabisulfite (or sulfite alone) is more similar to the Kodak product than the Ilford and will only last one working session (or maybe 24 hours like the Kodak product). I don't recommend mixing a stock solution, since mixing the working solution is so easy. Then there are no worries about solution exhaustion; just mix what you need on the spot for one session. Capacity of this homemade wash aid should be similar to the Hypo Clearing Agent as well.

Note that Ilford and Kodak have markedly different capacities and usage directions for their respective products too. I'll include them here as well since the Kodak info is only available on the packaging [my comments in italics in brackets]:

"KODAK HYPO CLEARING AGENT - DIRECTIONS FOR USE
After normal fixing, transfer films or prints to the clearing agent solution with or without a water rinse. The water rinse increases the capacity 150- 200 8 x 105 (or equivalent) films or 200 8x-10s (or equivalent) papers) per gallon of clearing agent solution."
[There's a chart here, which doesn't format well on the forum. The gist is as follows:

For films: rinse 30 seconds after fixing* and then treat with Hypo Clearing Agent, with agitation, for 1-2 minutes, then wash for 5 minutes.

For single-weight papers: rinse for 1 minute after fixing* and then treat with Hypo Clearing Agent, with agitation, for 2 minutes. Wash for 10 minutes.

For double-weight papers: rinse for 1 minute* after fixing and then treat with Hypo Clearing Agent, with agitation, for 3 minutes. Wash for 20 minutes.]

*Rinse after fixer may be eliminated. Capacity per gallon of clearing agent solution will then be reduced to 50 - 60 8 x 10s or equivalent for films and 80 8 x 10s or equivalent for papers."

Note that Kodak makes no allowance for RC papers. The instructions are for fiber-base papers. Note also that single-weight papers are now practically non-existent. This shows you the age of the Kodak instructions...

Ilford has different strategies than Kodak, one of which is coupled together with their wash sequence for optimum permanence. In a nutshell, the instructions for use and capacities for the Ilford Washaid are as follows:

"ILFORD WASHAID - Conventional Method:
Time for FB paper - 20ºC (68ºF) 10 minutes
Time for film - 20ºC (68ºF) 2–3 minutes
Capacity– films/litre 2m2 (11 ft2) 40 135/36 films
Capacity – 40 20.3x25.4 cm FB papers/litre (8x10 inch)
[Note: also no allowance for RC papers]

[After fixing, Ilford recommends the following]
For fibre-base paper: First wash (fresh running water) 5 minutes. Treatment in Washaid 1+4 10 minutes. Final wash 20 minutes
For film: First wash (fresh running water) 1 minute. Treatment in Washaid1+4 2-3 minutes. Final wash 5 minutes.

ILFORD WASHAID - Optimum Permanence Sequence:
"Where short fixing times can be given, the following sequences give extremely low levels of retained fixer and silver compounds. This is achieved by the combination of a very short fixing time and the use of ILFORD WASHAID. These sequences replace the standard fixing and washing sequence [above].

Optimum permanence sequence
Fixing ILFORD RAPID FIXER (1+4), 1 min with intermittent agitation
First wash Fresh, running water 5min
Rinse ILFORD WASHAID (1+4), 10min with intermittent agitation
Final wash Fresh, running water 5min
Processing conditions: 18–24ºC/65–75ºF including wash water.

[Note: fixer capacity is reduced with this method; only 10 8x10s per liter of fix one bath method.]

This is likely more information than you asked for :) However, I thought it might be nice to get this all in one place on the forum for future reference.

Best,

Doremus

[Maris Rusis]

There is a shelf life trap that occasionally disappoints. Suppose a batch of Hypo Clearing Agent or Washaid is used to only half its capacity, say 20 sheets of FB 8x10 paper per litre instead of the possible 40 sheets. It seems logical to store the half used Hypo Clear/Washaid for the next darkroom session. BUT during use the Hypo Clear/Washaid picks up minute amounts of organic substances from the FB paper and the half used solution now supports the growth of fungal slime. It's a bit of a shock to pour the old solution into a tray and find a lump of grey "snot" floating in it.

[Old_Dick]

Doremus,

I forgot to say "thank you". That's the "old" part of my name, CRS. Dick is just my name and the root of many funny jokes.

[esearing]

There is a shelf life trap that occasionally disappoints. Suppose a batch of Hypo Clearing Agent or Washaid is used to only half its capacity, say 20 sheets of FB 8x10 paper per litre instead of the possible 40 sheets. It seems logical to store the half used Hypo Clear/Washaid for the next darkroom session. BUT during use the Hypo Clear/Washaid picks up minute amounts of organic substances from the FB paper and the half used solution now supports the growth of fungal slime. It's a bit of a shock to pour the old solution into a tray and find a lump of grey "snot" floating in it.

Yep, seen that! I assume you could mix the Ilford 1+8 for 15-20 sheets 8x10 in a session.

[Doremus Scudder]

There is a shelf life trap that occasionally disappoints. Suppose a batch of Hypo Clearing Agent or Washaid is used to only half its capacity, say 20 sheets of FB 8x10 paper per litre instead of the possible 40 sheets. It seems logical to store the half used Hypo Clear/Washaid for the next darkroom session. BUT during use the Hypo Clear/Washaid picks up minute amounts of organic substances from the FB paper and the half used solution now supports the growth of fungal slime. It's a bit of a shock to pour the old solution into a tray and find a lump of grey "snot" floating in it.

A working solution of wash aid doesn't usually last more than 24 hours anyway, so keeping it around long enough for slime to grow is likely well past its useful life.

That's the problem with the Hypo Clearing Agent liquid stock solutiontoo: if you don't use the entire gallon (i.e., enough for five gallons of working solution) in three months or so, it's oxidized and no good anymore. That's why I just mix one session straight from powdered chemicals. A Tbsp of sodium sulfite and a pinch of sodium metabisulfite per liter and I'm good to go. It gets dumped at the end of the session. No worries and it's cheaper than the pre-mixed products.

Best,

Doremus

[alt.kafka]

A working solution of wash aid doesn't usually last more than 24 hours anyway, so keeping it around long enough for slime to grow is likely well past its useful life.

That's the problem with the Hypo Clearing Agent liquid stock solutiontoo: if you don't use the entire gallon (i.e., enough for five gallons of working solution) in three months or so, it's oxidized and no good anymore. That's why I just mix one session straight from powdered chemicals. A Tbsp of sodium sulfite and a pinch of sodium metabisulfite per liter and I'm good to go. It gets dumped at the end of the session. No worries and it's cheaper than the pre-mixed products.

Best,

Doremus

That's what I'm doing. I just couldn't see doing the whole 5gal stock/working solution thing. 12.5g of Kodak HCA per 500ml. I'll mix up a liter if I'm doing a few rolls in a row, but then it gets dumped.

It is granular, and needs to be dissolved completely. I'll get it going on a magnetic mixer before I start getting any other developing supplies out. 20-30min is probably overkill, but that's what it usually gets. A little heat probably wouldn't hurt, either. Or maybe I can reduce the amount of HCA.

[Jim Noel]

one teaspoon per quart of water is a cheap and efficient substitute. I haven't used anything else in 70 years. We also used it at the college.