Soap stone darkroom sink?

[Ironage]

I found a place that will make custom soapstone sinks. Anyone heard of one being used in a darkroom?


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[Rick A]

Wow! How much are they gonna nick you for that? Soapstone isn't cheap, and needs to be sealed, then a bit of higher than normal maintenance to stay leakproof. But hey, if it's in the budget go for it, it'll last several lifetimes.

[Paul Ron]

i had soapstone counters and sinks in my lab. they are very nice but do require sealing the stone... not a big deal diy.

recycled soapstone lab sinks may be a cheaper alternative and in very abundant supply at reclaim outlets.

soapstone sinks are great but heavy as all heck. you'll need to build it in with lots of support.

[EdSawyer]

Soapstone doesn't need sealing, that's one of the benefits of it. https://www.soapstonecompany.com/soapstone-faq/

[sperdynamite]

You better know you will never ever ever ever ever move.

[Drew Wiley]

Soapstone is quite soft, that's why it was the choice material for bowls and amulets among Calif. Indians. It's appeal in a kitchen is that it retains heat remarkably well. I simply cannot imagine factoring the wight, expense, and fragility of it for a darkroom space when there are such better options.

[Richard Wasserman]

I think it's an interesting choice., soapstone has been used in chemistry labs for a long time and surely will be impervious to darkroom chemicals. Cost of course is relative—what's expensive for one person may not be for another. I've learned not to try to spend other people's money for them...

[C. D. Keth]

I'm not sure why you'd want to bother but go ahead.

[Drew Wiley]

I doubt that any modern chem lab orders it. Certainly not around here in the very heart of pharmaceutical and biotech R&D. I sold fabrication equip to their shops, hospitals and govt labs too, and synthetics were the norm. It is affected by some reagents and also can crack unless the piece has been cut quite selectively; and those cracks can allow things through. I certainly wouldn't call it impervious. You also have to be careful re-sanding it due to certain nasty minerals, because it does scratch and gouge quite easily. But it can be a pretty surface if darkroom cosmetics are a priority when the lights are on. Your fixtures and floor will need to be reinforced for the extra weight, unless someone if supplying this product rather thin (which would indeed tempt its brittleness). But if you can afford it ...

[Greg]

About 20 years ago looked into having a soapstone sink fabricated for my darkroom by a local kitchen/bath store. Estimate was in the mid 4 figures. On the way home and about 3 minutes away from my home I stopped at a tag/garage sale. They had a very large heavy duty SS sink on their lawn. No price and was told it came from a local dog kennel and was used to collect pee and poop from the dogs, so was priced accordingly at $20.00. Served me for many years. Over the years twice have come across several large stone sinks from labs that had closed that could be had for "you remove it and it's yours".

[Drew Wiley]

I got Formica countertops for free. But I know how to make my own too. There are chemical-resistant grades of these materials, even static-resistant if you want that.

[Ironage]

Thanks for the thoughts. I would be looking for a used one, and may have already found it, but I don't know it's dimensions yet. Stainless steel is also expensive and noisy, fiberglass is nasty stuff that I know would be a mess as soon as I start playing with it. (Think finger paint). ABS is to flimsy for me. This will be my final darkroom, it is time to settle down.

[Drew Wiley]

Be aware of a couple things if you need to resize a soapstone top. You need a special kind of distinctly expensive diamond blade because, ironically, being so soft and retaining heat so well, ordinary diamond blades tend to overheat and shed their rim (dangerous- wear a face visor, thick gloves, and thick coat). So if you must do it with a relatively ordinary hardware store or lumberyard diamond blade, go slowly and allow the blade to frequently cool, and use a stiff toothbrush to clear off any accumulated talc residue. Second, you want good control of the dust as well as wear a good dust mask because soapstone sometimes contains a bit of natural asbestos or other nasty minerals. Sizing this material is really best done by someone with the right kind of equipment and experience. Sanding corners etc is easy; but again, beware of the dust.

[John Layton]

I know this might not be helpful...but 3/4 inch birch ply screwed-n-glued together, three coats of low voc Rakka marine epoxy (with vents installed prior to application to ensure safety), and you have yourself a great sink which will last a long, long time.

200900

[Drew Wiley]

I'm very familiar with marine epoxy. I sold more Smith epoxy than the plant store itself did. Drove right past the West System plant yesterday. Then there's Abatron. I'm not familiar with Rakka. Low VOC does not mean safe to breathe; it just pertains to whether the volatile solvents involved are considered smog-forming or not. Anything like this requires serious ventilation and chemical-resistant gloves. With plywood, the joints ideally needed to be supplemented with epoxy putty, and not just the same penetrating epoxy used for the wood. The achilles heel of epoxies is long-term UV exposure, which isn't going to be a problem in the darkroom.

[Paul Ron]

Be aware of a couple things if you need to resize a soapstone top. You need a special kind of distinctly expensive diamond blade because, ironically, being so soft and retaining heat so well, ordinary diamond blades tend to overheat and shed their rim (dangerous- wear a face visor, thick gloves, and thick coat). So if you must do it with a relatively ordinary hardware store or lumberyard diamond blade, go slowly and allow the blade to frequently cool, and use a stiff toothbrush to clear off any accumulated talc residue. Second, you want good control of the dust as well as wear a good dust mask because soapstone sometimes contains a bit of natural asbestos or other nasty minerals. Sizing this material is really best done by someone with the right kind of equipment and experience. Sanding corners etc is easy; but again, beware of the dust.

wet saw is the only right way to cut soapstone.

.

[Drew Wiley]

Yeah, wet saws. Well, for thick soapstone slabs, those are similar to a huge radial arm saw on an overhead rail. Damn fools would attach water hoses to ordinary Skilsaws and routers then hire some illegal day laborer to risk his own life. Ordinary wood carbide blades and router bits too. Whenever those particular machines came into our repair dept they were never ever returned to the person who brought them in. "Unrepairable", "your account is closed" was the standard answer. I kept all the diamond blades locked up and refused to sell them to anyone foolishly using them on a grinder or any saw not specifically engineered for wet use - and most of the real deal of those were actually tested after the engineering phase underwater in a special tank, yup, not kidding. The cheap Chinese clones were not and scared the heck out of me. There's a dumb stone age and a smart stone age, with the Darwin award fully applicable.

[John Layton]

as I said...ventilation installed prior to coating. Also...no putty (fillets) needed if joints are sound. Three coats of epoxy is more than enough to fill joints. Absolutely no leaks after five years and going strong! Nolo Problemo!

[Drew Wiley]

Five years is a quite small track record, and let me explain something else you haven't factored in. It depends on a several of things, John. Having the right quality plywood, and sealing the opposite sides with a least one coat of oil-based varnish or penetrating epoxy to prevent dimensional changes that could pop joints. Also good marine glue at all the seams and joints, supplemented by stainless screws. But here in earthquake country I do advise something additional like an epoxy putty along seams, though true moisture-cure polyurethane boat caulking could also be used after the epoxy has cured. I have indeed seen quite a few failed plywood sinks around here due to that very issue. It's inevitable, and a significant shake could happen a day later. Overbuilding things is not an option here; it's mandatory. And I dare say there are far more darkrooms and chem labs here on the Calif. coast than in Vermont. I really prefer seamless liners in such cases. At one time I sold liquid hypalon coatings that worked even for concentrated industrial acid vats - nasty, nasty stuff to apply, and now illegal. But now hypalon rubber can be purchased in safe roll form and be heat-welded in place; way more expensive than typical garage floor or truck bed liner products, but if someone wants the best, that's it. I already stated that I ordered a heat-welded polypropylene sheet sink for my own use; but that's a more difficult product to weld than hypalon roll material, which any pro torch-down roofer can manage. I coached all kinds of these situations, at the UCB with its many research facilities, in regard to both industrial and pharmaceutical mfg plants, many military applications, numerous commercial photo labs, etc. - got to hear and inspect a lot of horror stories about what failed. Geography counts too.

[Greg]

to prevent dimensional changes that could pop joints.

My experience with the sinks that I have constructed out of plywood, has been that the joints did indeed crack after a few months. Plywood was stored outside under cover in the lumber yard and exposed to the summer's high humidity. When it was delivered into my very low humidity basement/darkroom, I would immediately construct (one deck screw every 6"), paint, install, and use the sink. Resisted immediately caulking the joints, thick paint acted like caulk. After about 6 months the joints would show a hairline crack in them as I expected. Repainted the sink including a second coat over the joints.

Most flooring places tell you to store pre-finished flooring inside the house for a few days before installing. Our installer insisted on storing the flooring inside the house for 2 months before installing it. Think I read somewhere that Deardorff would store its "dried" wood for 2 years before using it to construct their cameras.

[Drew Wiley]

Once one adds up the cost of real marine plywood and epoxy, the alternate methods get very tempting. I just don't like in-place fiberglassing due to health risks. Your flooring installer was correct, not the dealer. Mahogany or ebony wood used for cameras needs to be seasoned up to 25 yrs in advance. But any remaining true pattern grade mahogany is going to be stored that long anyway, since all of it was cut long ago and nothing new is left to cut. Walnut cures faster, but that depends on several factors.

[John Layton]

Well...my last plywood and epoxy sink went strong for over thirty years in three different locations. Good thing we don't have many earthquakes I guess! As for expansion/contraction - my darkroom is pretty well climate controlled. I am able to manage around 68 to 70 degrees F, in a range of 45 to 55 percent humidity (de-humidified in summer), year round, so I don't anticipate things moving enough to cause problems.

I do confess that I do not use marine grade plywood - but a decent grade of 3/4 inch birch ply. Not too bad price-wise, no voids, dimensionally very stable and cuts very nicely.

Also regarding price...I chose the Rakka marine epoxy just for this reason - as it is significantly less expensive than the West System equivalent. Goes on a bit thin which is nice as it does allow the first coat to penetrate pretty well, and I do two coats over everything (inside and outside) then a third, slightly more generous coat (but not enough so that it cooks/bubbles) on the inside sink bottom. Finishes like glass (see photo with auxiliary large print processing tray), and is very tough and abrasion-resistant.

[Tin Can]

John

I like your wood boat sink and large tray with sluice gate, which looks big enough for 40X50" prints, I may make a smaller version for location 2

Next time, i will copy you, but right now I have a 7' Rosy Products sink, aka Arkay with OE insulation underneath, all I need

I sold my 10' Arkay which had all sides insulated as I knew my current DR would be smaller

I gave away 2 sinks when I left Chicago

[John Layton]

That's the 30x40 version. My 40x60 version also fits and works great - but 1/2 inch ply instead of 3/4 because otherwise it would weigh a ton! At any rate, I've included a photo of the other end of this which shows feed tanks - which get dumped in sequence into the large tray, after which the tray is rocked. After each step, the tray gets lifted/braced on the feed end, and I open the sluice gate to dump into the empty feed tank transferred from the feed side. I gently squeegee the print as it drains to ensure maximum solution transfer (and minimal waste), then un-brace and clamp the gate, and quickly pour in the next solution. The re-filled feed tanks get pushed underneath the large tray back to their original positions. I also use the feed tanks themselves to process test strips for the large print. At any rate...here's a photo of the other end:

200942

[Tin Can]

Excellent! Sliding the recovery tanks back under the top tray was NOT obvious until you described it

Picture sure helps too

New plans are afoot!

[Drew Wiley]

I'll have to study up on that Rakka product, John. The newer marine products were sold by another dealer across the Bay who was really more of an ally rather than a competitor; we sent customers to each other. But just like me, he's now retired, certain products have already changed, and none of the younger personnel have equivalent product knowledge. Penetrating epoxies are used a lot for architectural structural repairs in this area, far more than even boats, but it's easy to get sensitized to them. And of course there are far less expensive alternative products than marine ply; but I always default to that recommendation to avoid ambiguity. Not every area has the huge selection of plywoods and marine products like we do here. I personally use high-quality maple shop plys that cost about a fourth as much as true marine, but I still have an inside track with pricing that the general public does not.

[John Layton]

The folks at Rakka are usually pretty helpful in terms of helping to match one of their products to a particular need. More recently, I tried one of their newer "low blush" formulas, and found it had a tendency to bubble - and if those bubbles aren't removed before drying, they pop and make sharp points. So I went back to their standard, long-set formula, which suits fine and penetrates quite well.

I have a good friend who has built a few boats and did become epoxy sensitive. I do think about this, but as a rule do not use raw epoxy all that much. I also have great ventilation which helps I'm sure.

I've never used maple plys but have thought about doing so. My guess is that they might be a bit heavier than birch. Does this sound right?

Finally...I do agree that finding folks that are truly knowledgeable about their products can be really tough these days - and when I do find someone who knows his or her stuff about something, I tend to ply them with as many questions I can think of while I have their attention!

[Drew Wiley]

Birch has gotten expensive but has that two-toned tan look if cabinetry is in mind. Most maple is now Russian and more consistently blonde. My habit of just going straight to overkill recommendation of marine ply is because in much of this country people go shopping at home centers and discount lumberyards where the choice is junk versus worse junk, yet arbitrarily marketed as premium, good, etc - meaningless or outright deceptive terms with respect to actual official engineering specs. And then the sales "associates" are generally about as well informed as an eggplant. So stating marine ply at least makes people think of going to an actual specialty dealer instead, where someone hopefully knows what they're actually selling, but that is by no means a sure bet these days, just as you have noted. I have to look at someone's yacht next week, and also have a friend needing something especially durable coating for a giant custom table. But I'm trying to get away from personal use of epoxies as much as I can. My Phillips 8x10 camera was made of a custom ply pickled with penetrating epoxy.
It's yellowed like crazy, and the finish would spall off if it was left continuously in sunlight; but the camera is pulled out of the pack just for shooting, and even then it's blanketed with a darkcloth; so I'm not worried.

[Ironage]

Update. Found a really old and good 2x3 soapstone sink near me. Went to see it and found that it was shallow and would have worked for 8x10 trays. A little small for me. I tried to move it but it was HEAVY! This is a no deal for me. I will not ruin my already poor back for a darkroom sink.


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[Tin Can]

My 86" X 30" OD Calumet/ARKAY-Rosy Products stainless steel sink breaks down to 4 pieces. Tray, Backsplash, two leg panels. I can stand in it at 170 lbs, I found it used and assembled

I was able to dismantle, move to my new location and reassemble it myself. I am not strong. The insulated tray was carried by one hand 100ft, with stops for rest...

It can hold 3 20X24" standard plastic trays

Rosy Products was in business in Michigan for a long time, now I cannot find his website...

However, I think used SS sinks are still out there, as so many print Digi...

[esearing]

anyone else try Flex-seal over Plywood coated with fiberglass? Mine is going strong after 4 years. easy to clean and the black color shows the white precipitates if I don't do so well.

I also saw an image of Clyde Butcher's darkroom and he appears to have had acrylic trays fabricated. An aquarium maker could fabricate a long sink with relatively thin and light materials. I would put a wood frame around it for protection.