A question on FS rule enforcement

[Jonathan Barlow]

Why is it unacceptable to include a link in a for sale post to another for sale post within the For Sale/For Trade forum? Once a post leaves the first page, it's pretty much invisible for a month before it can be re-posted.

What's so terrible about including a link in a post that's still on the first page before it's pushed off by the professional sellers who post ads daily?

[Oren Grad]

The limit of three new threads per day and the bump/update rules have prevented any one seller from "owning" the queue. Within the limits specified by the rules, you're free to decide how to group your own sales, whether into fewer threads containing more items each or more threads containing fewer items each, and how often you want to update your pricing.

But visibility at the top of the queue is necessarily a zero-sum game. We have mitigated that as best we reasonably can, but it is not possible for us to guarantee any particular amount of visibility for any particular thread. On days when FS subforum listing activity is higher, existing threads will necessarily move down the queue more quickly. Similarly, those who have fewer items to sell and so fewer listings will tend to have lower overall visibility as sellers. That cannot be avoided without a radically different structure for the FS subforum, which is not possible for us to implement with our forum software.

Finally: posts that seek to bend or game the rules in order to claim visibility at the top of the queue are unfair to members who play by the rules, and are considered a violation. At moderators' discretion such posts will be deleted, or edited solely to remove the specific content that is a violation. Repeated violations may result in loss of FS subforum privileges.

[Jonathan Barlow]

Are you saying that including the sentence I also have lenses for sale here at the bottom of a for sale post, where the word here is a link to an older for sale post, is considered gaming the system?

[Oren Grad]

Yes.

[akoltek]

Surely you must realize that your overly strict moderation is creating a community that new members aren't particularly interested in contributing to. I'm pretty sure I'm exactly the kind of demographic that a forum like this would like to encourage as membership (passionate, professional, willing to lend advice and encouragement, reasonable, good at what I do)… please reconsider your approach here... I understand what you're trying to do, and respect the importance of moderation, but this is literally crazyness that linking to another post in the classifieds is considered gaming the system.

[Vaughn]

Actually, many of us think the opposite. If the rules for sales is the deciding factor for someone not to participate here in this community, then perhaps this is not the right place for them and they probably will not be missed.

Edited to add: I am all for anyone giving this place a go, though, and joining the give and take of ideas, images, and knowledge.

[Tin Can]

Ditto


Actually, many of us think the opposite. If the rules for sales is the deciding factor for someone not to participate here in this community, then perhaps this is not the right place for them and they probably will not be missed.

[malexand]

I came here for the knowledge and passion of others, the chance to see their creativity and find different ways of doing photography. The opportunity to buy equipment comes in as a bonus, though i would still be here if the 'for sale' forum went away. The ability to sell gear is far down the list of reasons most of us are here. There are plenty of other sites to sell your stuff.

[Sal Santamaura]

Surely you must realize that your overly strict moderation is creating a community that new members aren't particularly interested in contributing to. I'm pretty sure I'm exactly the kind of demographic that a forum like this would like to encourage as membership (passionate, professional, willing to lend advice and encouragement, reasonable, good at what I do)… please reconsider your approach here... I understand what you're trying to do, and respect the importance of moderation, but this is literally crazyness that linking to another post in the classifieds is considered gaming the system.

Post numbers six, seven and eight are well-written rebuttals to this nonsense. Perhaps you ought learn from their advice and encouragement.

[Vaughn]

Sal, give em a chance to learn! :cool: This is a good community, even with a few of us screwballs.

[Jonathan Barlow]

I believe that the ability to dispose of and acquire used large format photographic equipment on this site is what keeps it alive. I don't think the role it plays should be underestimated.

Here's a challenge: Shut down the For Sale forum for a month and measure the overall traffic to the site. I expect that it would slow to a crawl.

[Tin Can]

95% of my total LF gear by volume/size, cost/value was not bought here

I don't buy film at all here. I have bought a little old paper

I don't buy chemistry here, or frames. matboard, etc

I have bought and been given a few books here. Thank you Jac! RIP

Almost every lens and camera was acquired elsewhere

My sinks did not come from here, nor my my Hass, or my contact frames, especially the big vacuum frame

A couple broken timers were acquired here, no I did not complain, the sellers may have not known...

One enlarger was bought here, but I had seen it before in person 300 miles away from my home

Three enlargers were given to me here by non members who joined just to give me the old stuff. Thank you! Another guy, same way, gave me a case of flashbulbs

I repeat most of my photographic gear come from outside this forum

My DSLR and it's lenses New stuff

And this is the ONLY forum I frequent, I don't post elsewhere

I have not sold much here either, but then I seldom sell

I don't and won't sell ANY ART anywhere

I come to LFPF many times a day for discussion, research and comradery

Lately i even post images, almost anything, but the image are all from flickr and can disappear in a flash...

What keeps the FLAME alive here is interaction among active posters

I post a lot to try to fan those flames and encourage others to join us

I don't use FakeBook either and I hear there are MANY selling there

These are the Good Old Days, enjoy this here, right now as is...

[Jonathan Barlow]

Re: Tin Can

You bought a number of things from me through this site, Randy. Thank you for that.

Also, 70% of my large format equipment was bought here.

[Sal Santamaura]

...Here's a challenge: Shut down the For Sale forum for a month and measure the overall traffic to the site. I expect that it would slow to a crawl.I doubt it would. Fortunately, this site has a higher, non-commercial purpose and, therefore, is not sensitive to traffic reductions from those who use it primarily as a marketplace.

[C. D. Keth]

I believe that the ability to dispose of and acquire used large format photographic equipment on this site is what keeps it alive. I don't think the role it plays should be underestimated.

Here's a challenge: Shut down the For Sale forum for a month and measure the overall traffic to the site. I expect that it would slow to a crawl.

The classified section IS what keeps the site alive.

Most new member don’t know the main page informational site even exists and the amount of stodginess and grumpiness, condescension, one-upsmanship, and contrarianism new members (and sometimes old
members) get is significant. The amount of knowledge here is massive but the tone and quality of communication is often terrible.

I suggest allowing each member one active classified post and allowing that member to bump it once per day. All of the member’s sale interests can be consolidated into that one post and edited as needed. That would considerably clean up the classified section that, right now, is littered with completed listings that I wouldn’t click on if I could tell they were complete before entering. It’s currently very annoying.


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[Corran]

Surely you must realize that your overly strict moderation is creating a community that new members aren't particularly interested in contributing to. I'm pretty sure I'm exactly the kind of demographic that a forum like this would like to encourage as membership (passionate, professional, willing to lend advice and encouragement, reasonable, good at what I do)… please reconsider your approach here... I understand what you're trying to do, and respect the importance of moderation, but this is literally crazyness that linking to another post in the classifieds is considered gaming the system.

+1

Encouraging new practitioners is one of the main things this site should be aiming to do, and I can tell you from personal experience this site has destroyed that aspect, which is why it continues to be almost completely ignored by those my age and younger (which is already a tough sell being that forums are old-school now).

I have my own issues with the Facebook groups and the like, where the blind are leading the blind for the most part, but I digress.


The classified section IS what keeps the site alive.

Most new member don’t know the main page informational site even exists and the amount of stodginess and grumpiness, condescension, one-upsmanship, and contrarianism new members (and sometimes old
members) get is significant. The amount of knowledge here is massive but the tone and quality of communication is often terrible.

Also this.

Anyway, I know it's not being re-litigated, so none of this matters unless perhaps more moderators are brought on board to lighten the load and the classifieds are viewed differently by those same mods and the owner.

[BradS]

The classified section IS what keeps the site alive.

Most new member don’t know the main page informational site even exists and the amount of stodginess and grumpiness, condescension, one-upsmanship, and contrarianism new members (and sometimes old
members) get is significant. The amount of knowledge here is massive but the tone and quality of communication is often terrible.

I suggest allowing each member one active classified post and allowing that member to bump it once per day. All of the member’s sale interests can be consolidated into that one post and edited as needed. That would considerably clean up the classified section that, right now, is littered with completed listings that I wouldn’t click on if I could tell they were complete before entering. It’s currently very annoying.


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Very well said. I completely agree. Thank you.

[BradS]

Fuck it. Just close down the classified. The mods would be happy to be relieved of the burden. The old timers who dislike the classifieds would be happy to be relieved of the burden.....and anybody who’s left can pig pile on every newbie who comes along and asks where to buy or sell some LF gear.

[darr]

I do not understand why this forum has so much trouble with their classifieds. I visit a few other photography forums (getDPI, FredMiranda, LL) and they do not seem to have problems with their Buy/Sell forums. If they do, I have never experienced a problem in over ten years of using them. The more rules, the more need to moderate. And I agree with C. D. Keth's comment:


"... the amount of stodginess and grumpiness, condescension, one-upsmanship, and contrarianism new members (and sometimes old members) get is significant. The amount of knowledge here is massive but the tone and quality of communication is often terrible."

This place has changed over the years in an unfriendly way.

[Sal Santamaura]

...This place has changed over the years in an unfriendly way.

Not really. Those who want this free, non-commercial service to be what they desire have always been unfriendly toward the owner and moderators who've established what they want. And there has consistently been bitching/moaning by free-riding members' about their inability to change things.

As always, I encourage those who seek a free-for-all large format classified forum to establish and maintain their own. As always, I expect crickets in response to that suggestion. And the beat goes on.

[Vaughn]

People seem to forget (or are too new to know) that the present rules are there because with less rules the for sale part of this forum was unmanagable and causing too much work for the moderators. And they were probably getting far more complaints concerning bumping than they did from people complaining about not being able to bump!

This place continues to exist because of the moderators. We need to do whatever it takes to make that job smooth sailing...or as Sal said, start your own forum!

[Jonathan Barlow]

People seem to forget (or are too new to know) that the present rules are there because with less rules the for sale part of this forum was unmanagable and causing too much work for the moderators. And they were probably getting far more complaints concerning bumping than they did from people complaining about not being able to bump!

This place continues to exist because of the moderators. We need to do whatever it takes to make that job smooth sailing...or as Sal said, start your own forum!


Why does the Photrio For Sale forum function so smoothly when many of the people who sell here also sell there?

[Vaughn]

Why does ours run so smoothly?

Photrio is a privately owned for-profit forum -- Sean can spend a little more money on things --

Sean (2018): "Hey, just installing a thread bump manager for the classifieds area. Ran into a snag but should have it running in the next 24hrs."

[malexand]

This place continues to exist because of the moderators. We need to do whatever it takes to make that job smooth sailing...or as Sal said, start your own forum!

+1
Agreed. Without the current rules, this place would be over-run with buy / sell posts being bumped daily. If thats all you're truly interested in - ebay is just a click away...

[darr]

Why is it the getDPI forum Buy/Sell classifies run smoothly? And selling medium format digital gear is not cheap.
They do get fraudsters every now and then, but the community is friendly over there and protects and helps each other.
I only use this as an example because I spend more time there than here these days.

I only recently started coming back after being away for a few years, and I do sense a change.
Hoping for a solution as I remember this board long before they used this software.

[Dan Fromm]

Um, er, ah, have any of you posters who allege that our resident curmudgeons have driven new arrivals away asked the departees why they didn't stick around?

I don't recall seeing many announcements to the effect of "A curmudgeon bit me so I'm leaving."

[BradS]

Would it matter if anybody had? Would anybody change their behavior or attitude? I don't think so.

[Corran]

Dan, I've actually talked to multiple people who either don't post anymore or left after not much time.

The reasons often include the word "curmudgeon."

[BradS]

I have to admit, the classified section here used to be a...well, it used to be Really Bad. The incessant bumping, the petty personal cat fights that would erupt in the posts...I remember one hopeful seller who, after bumping his over priced FS item every couple of hours started including little tirades to all those who were looking and not buying, not even making offers. And another seller who posted like 3 pages worth of FS ads within a few hours and when called out on it, seemed oblivious that such behavior might not be seen in a too positive light. So, as much as I dislike the way it is now, it is better than it was.

As for the specific incident that resulted in this thread, I can see where it was a violation of the rules in a very strict interpretation of the rules and I can see how adding a link in a new FS thread could used (and therefore, eventually would be) used to game the no bumping rule BUT, I do not think that the OP was in any way gaming the system in this specific instance....but, the rules are the rules. which brings me to my next point...Oren Grad.

I appreciate Oren's moderating activities. He is very impartial and even handed...we have not always been so fortunate. He is active but not heavy handed. Again, I appreciate that too. He takes a lot of flack simply because he is (or appears to me to be) far more active than any of the other mods here. So, Thank you Oren. Keep up the good work!

Anyway, as so often happens to me, I got emotional over this incident and probably behaved poorly. I apologize to those whom I have offended.

Carry on.

[C. D. Keth]

I have to admit, the classified section here used to be a...well, it used to be Really Bad...So, as much as I dislike the way it is now, it is better than it was.

My thinking is the other way round. Several years ago the classifieds were a little “Wild West” but there was (at least seemingly) 3x the activity. You just had to mentally filter things a bit which is a very easy task.


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[Jonathan Barlow]

My thinking is the other way round. Several years ago the classifieds were a little “Wild West” but there was (at least seemingly) 3x the activity. You just had to mentally filter things a bit which is a very easy task.


I agree.

[BrianShaw]

Um, er, ah, have any of you posters who allege that our resident curmudgeons have driven new arrivals away asked the departees why they didn't stick around?

I don't recall seeing many announcements to the effect of "A curmudgeon bit me so I'm leaving."
You must be new around here. Ha ha ha.

[Tin Can]

I have blocked a 2 nasty people, not over FS/WTB but just always rude to me in my early days here

Don't miss them at all

I also think a few have blocked me:)

Nobody is happy and helpful all day long...


Um, er, ah, have any of you posters who allege that our resident curmudgeons have driven new arrivals away asked the departees why they didn't stick around?

I don't recall seeing many announcements to the effect of "A curmudgeon bit me so I'm leaving."

[BradS]

My thinking is the other way round. Several years ago the classifieds were a little “Wild West” but there was (at least seemingly) 3x the activity. You just had to mentally filter things a bit which is a very easy task.


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Its a good point and I agree.
I've had many good transactions here in the past...and even met some good people face-to-face in the process.
Under the current rules and restrictions, the classified area here is pretty useless.

[paulbarden]

My take on it is this: if someone wants to “bump” an ad for something repeatedly and frequently to push the sale, then it gives me the chance to gather some data about that seller and their attitude towards the sale. If they appear “too eager/aggressive”, then I will likely avoid this sale item (and seller, in future) If they bump the ad twice a week, dropping the price by 5% each time, then I know they’re hot to get it off their hands, and contacting them to make an offer might bear fruit. There are all kinds of things you can glean from how a person presents an item they wish to sell, and knowing certain things can work in your favor. Allowing someone to push a sale item however they wish let’s me see some things I might not otherwise see, and to evaluate the seller to determine how likely/unlikely the purchase (and experience) would be satisfactory.

When browsing internet flea markets for equipment, not only do I look at the sellers star ratings, but if they have negative feedback, I look to see if the seller responds to it. I’ve seen sellers who reply to every instance of negative feedback by insulting the buyer horrifically. That is a seller I KNOW I don’t want to deal with. If a seller re-lists the same item over and over for months and never lowers the price, I stop watching that item because they won’t likely drop the price or consider lower offers. Etc. So I’m all for letting people present themselves however they wish in order to sell an item. More data, I say.

[Dan Fromm]

Is this site primarily a marketplace or a source of information and mutual assistance?

As I understand what the site is about, the complaints in this discussion -- gripes about bluntness aside -- are a classic case of the tail wagging the dog.

[Vaughn]

Excellent point, Dan, and I agree.

I was disappointed at first -- when we could have discussions in the marketplace threads, a lot of good information was shared about the equipment, etc. However, because this site was founded and is maintained primarily as a "source of information and mutual assistance" and the marketplace threads are not archived, that good info discussed in marketplace threads (instead on the main forum) is lost, thus defeating the purpose of this forum.

[Exploring Large Format]

I'm very new, but not young. Learned a ton already, and bought a few items at good prices. Always a few goodies thrown in--probably because of the sense of community. Nice in these times.

Can't comment on the previous rules, but think the current balance makes sense.

Curmudgeons? At times, for sure! Also, loads of patience, especially for us newbies. And often from the same person who was a curmudgeon five minutes before.

To the moderators: I'm grateful! [emoji120]

To the sellers: This is ONE of many outlets for you.

To the buyers: WTB also works well. Some sellers didn't know they were about to sell until prompted. Worked well already for me as one seeking to buy.

Suggestion (unless it exists and I missed it): Create a "Guiding Principles Statement" or whatever you want to call it. Purpose is to call folks IN, not call folks OUT, but establishes a purpose, a tone, a vision for where Large Format Photography, the endeavor not the Forum, is heading. This doesn't have to be prescriptive because it can list the various ways folks use the Forum. But it is a kind of gentle leadership and direction. It's a welcome that won't stop individual bad actors or slip ups, but it shows intention of the collective.

Thanks again to the Moderators! Really challenging, but also a real contribution.

I doubt I would have dived into Large Format had I not stumbled into this space. The marketing of goods was a big bonus, but not the essence for me.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Corran]

A quick observation.

There's a recent thread (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?156791-Nikkor-Q-300mm-f9&p=1537899#post1537899) in the "Lens and Lens Accessories" subforum about the Nikkor-M 300mm Q.

I note that, at least here on my machine, the 3 top threads at the bottom are all "For Sale" threads, and are all from 7+ years ago.

It has been said that threads in the FS subforum are not archived. Not sure what that means (don't come up on Google searches?) but they certainly get linked internally through that system. I wonder why "Similar Threads" list on the bottom there is populated with 75% ancient FS threads and I wonder if more healthy discussion inside such threads also raises them in "rank."

Again, just an observation.

[Eric Woodbury]

I like the FS and WTB sections. I check them regularly. As Vaughn noted, there is great info there. I get to see equipment that I would otherwise never know. I sell occasionally, too. Right now the bed in my studio is covered in gear that needs to go and I plan to offer it here. I don't want to deal with auctions when I can deal with friends. I understand wanting gear listed at the top all the time, but this is not an auction house and these ads are free. It's more of a bulletin board. Still it is hard to sort what has sold from what hasn't. Then all the emails through PM are a pain, too, as my PM box is always full.

I didn't join the Forum for the sale section, but for the information exchange. Times are changing though. Santa Barbara once had more photo stores than you could count and now none. Craigslist once had all manner and fashion of photo equipment and now it is new stuff and a Tiltall tripod that just won't sell despite it being bumped to the top for months now (and a good price).

What might make sense is more variables in the FS section: FS Darkroom, FS Large format, FS Medium format, etc. This makes more room at the top because there are more tops, easier searches, and maintains the rules. There will still be the grumps that aren't happy, but there are always grumps.

[Jonathan Barlow]

I agree that the For Sale forum is what keeps this site vibrant.

[Peter Lewin]

I agree that the For Sale forum is what keeps this site vibrant.
I disagree completely. It is the information threads, and especially the image threads, that keep it vibrant. The "For Sale" is a nice extra but nothing more. The people who seem to get most upset about the Sales rules are those who seem to have so much equipment that they post quite often. I have been enjoying LF photography for almost 50 years, and have not accumulated the number of surplus lenses, filters, and other odds and ends that some sellers must have to post the number of sales that they do.

[Dan Fromm]

Agree completely with Peter.

Jonathan's statement in post #41 above reveals his values. I don't share them.

[rdenney]

Everybody has a different vision of the forum, and not all of them are compatible. We’ve been guided by the often-stated objective of the owner to keep the site completely non-commercial. That means he doesn’t have a business model at all, let alone one that funds the site through ad revenue. And that means it’s run—and order is kept—by volunteers, mods and participants alike. That is different from all other forums in which I participate.

So, let’s enjoy it for what it is, and not let ourselves be annoyed by what it isn’t.

As to moderator involvement. I admire Oren’s ability to post frequently and still maintain an even hand. When I became a moderator, I greatly reduced my posting frequency, partly because my available time for participation was being used for other things, and partly because everyone would avoid me in a debate and I didn’t want my moderator status to squelch active and healthy discussion.

And, like all of us, the moderators occasionally respond to outside responsibilities, and I’ve had my share. The fact that mods can vary in their availability is a testament to the general orderliness of the forum, threads like this notwithstanding.

But that doesn’t mean I’m absent, or that Ralph is absent, because we don’t post as much as Oren. All strategic decisions are based on moderator consensus, not mere plurality.

Beyond that, the forum goes where its members take it.

What does it take to be a large-format photographer? At the least, it takes a willingness to endure inconvenience and difficulty to oppose the dominant techniques. Should we be surprised that such willingness is often coincident with curmudgeonliness? The stubbornness to follow through with such an inconvenient format has both positive and negative expressions. As mods, we could weed out curmudgeonliness—and sometimes we do bound it—but eliminating it would take something critical away. If people think it’s unreasonable to limit sales activity as we do, what would they think of a forum populated only by the rare survivors who have the perspicacity to pursue large format but who never express that commitment in ways those with thin skins might find occasionally uncomfortable?

So, let’s grow thicker skins. And if you want less curmudgeonliness, simply refuse to be one, even in threads complaining about curmudgeons.

Now, I’ll go back to my seat in the corner.

Rick “gotta leave it at that—airplane door is shut” Denney

[Sal Santamaura]

I disagree completely. It is the information threads, and especially the image threads, that keep it vibrant. The "For Sale" is a nice extra but nothing more. The people who seem to get most upset about the Sales rules are those who seem to have so much equipment that they post quite often. I have been enjoying LF photography for almost 50 years, and have not accumulated the number of surplus lenses, filters, and other odds and ends that some sellers must have to post the number of sales that they do.


Agree completely with Peter.

Jonathan's statement in post #41 above reveals his values. I don't share them.

I agree completely with Peter and Dan.


...What does it take to be a large-format photographer? At the least, it takes a willingness to endure inconvenience and difficulty to oppose the dominant techniques. Should we be surprised that such willingness is often coincident with curmudgeonliness? The stubbornness to follow through with such an inconvenient format has both positive and negative expressions...

I disagree with Rick's implication that curmudgeonliness is a negative expression. :D

[Dan Fromm]

Sal, some people don't see it that way, but curmudgeonliness is a noble calling.

[Natenaaron]

"If you don't like the sandbox you are welcome to take your toys and find a sandbox you like." Said by some random guy in a tiny niche camera brand specific forum a long time ago. Stills rings true today.

I for one am very happy with the classifieds rule here, and appreciate the enforcement.

[Oren Grad]

Sal, some people don't see it that way, but curmudgeonliness is a noble calling.

With apologies to Paracelsus: "Sola dosis facit venenum". :)

[Dan Fromm]

Out of curiosity, I looked up the OP's posts here. If I counted correctly, 109 of the last 120 (starting May 8, 2016) were for sale offers or complaints about the for sale section's rules. Several of the other 11 were remarks about prices. I scored the remainder low in "sharing knowledge."

Tastes differ. Given how the OP uses this site, I can understand why it thinks that the for sale section keeps it vibrant. That said, I suspect that the OP's preferences are shared by only a small fraction of the site's users. Whether this is so is an empirical question so I could well be mistaken, but until proven otherwise I'll see the OP as a vocal member of a very small minority.

[Tin Can]

Good to know

Thanks Dan

[Sal Santamaura]

With apologies to Paracelsus: "Sola dosis facit venenum". :)

I've always attempted to dose curmudgeonliness when symptoms call for it. Sometimes poison can exterminate pests. I prefer sharing useful large format photography information (and rebutting nonsense "information") as a steady diet, resorting to being a curmudgeon only on those occasions when annoying, irritating "topics" arise.:D

[Jonathan Barlow]

Out of curiosity, I looked up the OP's posts here. If I counted correctly, 109 of the last 120 (starting May 8, 2016) were for sale offers or complaints about the for sale section's rules. Several of the other 11 were remarks about prices. I scored the remainder low in "sharing knowledge."

Tastes differ. Given how the OP uses this site, I can understand why it thinks that the for sale section keeps it vibrant. That said, I suspect that the OP's preferences are shared by only a small fraction of the site's users. Whether this is so is an empirical question so I could well be mistaken, but until proven otherwise I'll see the OP as a vocal member of a very small minority.


The OP (it) spends more time on Photrio (formerly APUG/DPUG) where there's an open, friendly atmosphere and far less of the above.

[BrianShaw]

So what?; who cares?; what’s the criteria to be a “valid” forum member?; who’s the judge of that?

Judge not lest...

... bla bla... throwing stones; glass houses...

[rdenney]

Jonathon,

I would suggest that the above isn’t even an example of curmudgeonliness, let alone unfriendliness. It was simply pointing out a plain fact, and drawing a rather neutrally stated conclusion. If the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it.

I’m also a member of Photrio, though I’m not really active there. It’s a good forum with a little different flavor than this one (and a different objective). I could say the same for the Pentax forum, where I’m more active. And several non-photography forums. In all cases, the owners earn incomes from the forums, and they delete posts and ban people based on threats to the popularity of their forums. Popularity is what drives ad impressions, which is directly tied to income. I’m not at all suggesting they do so unfairly, but the attainment of their objective is easy to measure.

If curmudgeons’ posts are routinely deleted or their threads closed, those curmudgeons wander along. But that doesn’t mean the forum or its users really benefit from their departure. It seems clear to me that the majority seeking affirmation rather than (or at least more than) learning and truth may prefer a place with only positive reinforcement, but that makes beginners, not experts.

Since we don’t care about ad revenue, we don’t have to worry about popularity. Nobody here wants to be mean-spirited or insulting on a personal level. But they are interest in the development, not just the affirmation, of large-format photographers. Sometimes, that means coming to a point. And coming to a point implies the occasional tendency to be a bit sharp.

If those who think our curmudgeons are really being unfriendly would simply assume that they aren’t, and look for the truth and value in that sharp advice, they might find that some of those curmudgeons have learned some lessons that are less painful to learn by taking heed than through personal experience.

Obviously, we try to minimize mean-spiritedness, when we detect it, but maybe we give more benefit of the doubt than you expect. And there are topics that people inevitably take personally and that aren’t related to the topic here, such as partisan politics, and we disallow those.

But this I know: the people I have learned the most from in life were those unwilling to coddle me and instead delivered the unvarnished truth I needed to hear. Maybe I didn’t realize that at the time. And on occasion they misread my needs. But even then it didn’t do me any harm to hear it again, or any harm to silent readers who did need it.

Rick “for whom the mission here is the development of expert, independent large-format photographers through fellowship and advice” Denney

[Jonathan Barlow]

By the above, I was only referring to Dan Fromm's post.

[Dan Fromm]

The OP (it) spends more time on Photrio (formerly APUG/DPUG) where there's an open, friendly atmosphere and far less of the above.

Jonathan, if that's your name, I have no idea whether you're male or female. This because screen names aren't required to be their owners' real names. You could be male, you could be female, you could be confused, ... You're probably not a dog, you type better than the average dog.

Using the first person neuter pronoun seems better than assuming what your gender is. I once made the mistake of assuming a Trinidadian official whose given name is Lalla was female. Caution, person, caution.

[Jonathan Barlow]

Jonathan, if that's your name, I have no idea whether you're male or female. This because screen names aren't required to be their owners' real names. You could be male, you could be female, you could be confused, ... You're probably not a dog, you type better than the average dog.

Using the first person neuter pronoun seems better than assuming what your gender is. I once made the mistake of assuming a Trinidadian official whose given name is Lalla was female. Caution, person, caution.


Dan, I've browsed a decade of your comments on this site and I'd expect nothing less than the above.

[rdenney]

By the above, I was only referring to Dan Fromm's post.

Rick “So was I” Denney

[rdenney]

Dan, I've browsed a decade of your comments on this site and I'd expect nothing less than the above.

I’ve learned a lot from Dan, in between being exasperated by him. But it’s fair to say I’ve annoyed him a time or two, also.

I’ve never thought he intended ill to me or anyone else.

But now who is making it personal?

Rick “this has probably run its course, but we’ll see” Denney

[Renato Tonelli]

Good grief!

I used to enjoy the conversations about the items on sale because some of the items were unknown to me - almost always (almost!) learned something new. No big deal, I guess.

I have had a few FS posts deleted because they were considered bumps (i honestly did not think they were); no editing, no 'sale pending payment' posts - I finally got it!
My rule: post it, forget it, close the thread when it has sold. We have much bigger things to worry about.

[Oren Grad]

I have had a few FS posts deleted because they were considered bumps (i honestly did not think they were); no editing, no 'sale pending payment' posts - I finally got it!

There's no need to guess, or to try to figure out what the rules are based on a pattern of deletions - it's all there in the guidelines. Please read them if you haven't already. If you have read the guidelines and you're not sure about the meaning of something or how we will interpret it, please ask - we're happy to explain. If you've seen a deletion note on one of your posts (you are paying attention to those, right?) and you don't understand it, then again, please ask!

[rdenney]

Also, if you see something in the FS forum that is new to you, and you want to ask about it, just start a thread about it in the appropriate equipment sub forum.

Just don’t reference the sale. (“I saw a picture of a Framistan Rheostat and wonder what its used for.”)

Rick “easy peasy” Denney

[BradS]

Wow, so now the mods are joining in on the personal attack...just wow.

[Sal Santamaura]

Wow, so now the mods are joining in on the personal attack...just wow.I'm confused, Brad. Which moderator posts represent a "personal attack?" Please be specific and explain how they are. Thanks in advance.

[Renato Tonelli]

There's no need to guess, or to try to figure out what the rules are based on a pattern of deletions - it's all there in the guidelines. Please read them if you haven't already. If you have read the guidelines and you're not sure about the meaning of something or how we will interpret it, please ask - we're happy to explain. If you've seen a deletion note on one of your posts (you are paying attention to those, right?) and you don't understand it, then again, please ask!

Like I said, "I finally got it!".

[BrianShaw]

I’ve learned a lot from Dan, in between being exasperated by him. But it’s fair to say I’ve annoyed him a time or two, also.

I’ve never thought he intended ill to me or anyone else.

But now who is making it personal?

Rick “this has probably run its course, but we’ll see” Denney

Seriously, Rick... you don’t think that referring to a member with a clearly male name as “it” was cold and intentionally offensive? Please do us all a favor and lock this thread, as it should have been locked after the initial intercourse. Or let it go on so I can LMFAO some more. :)

The question was asked and answered a long time ago!

[Peter Lewin]

My concern with this thread, now that it has reached 7 pages primarily motivated by one seller's desire to have rules more amenable to his sales, is that it may be taking up too much of the moderator's time. Remember that they are volunteers, freely giving us users their time.

As to the "curmudgeon" sub-text, I've been a member of this forum for a lot of years now, and rarely find that anyone is being so unfriendly as to drive others away. Yes, there are a very small number of posters who seem to be consistently negative, but that is a small price to pay for the wealth of information and creative ideas that users of LF cannot find anywhere else. I respect Corran a lot, so when he says that new potential members in his age group have been driven away by "curmudgeons" (I love that word, it feels so 19th century!), perhaps we could have a separate thread of examples which we could learn from (i.e. how to phrase things less aggressively). I wouldn't want to debate the issue, but if people are really being turned off, I would love to see what it was that turned them off.

[Corran]

I actually wrote a reply earlier and then decided not to post it. I'm doing that more lately. Take from that what you will.

This forum is a valuable thing for LF practitioners, but I do think some could do better with their irascibility (that includes me, on occasion).

PS: I really wanted to use the word "irascibility" ;).

PPS: Take a look at the number of users online, both "guests" and registered users, and consider how many posts are made on the forum daily.

[BradS]

So the lesson here is pretty clear. If you post in the classified section, you are of a lower status member and can expect to be treated as such.

[rdenney]

Seriously, Rick... you don’t think that, referring to a member with a clearly male name as “it”, was cold and intentionally offensive? Please do us all a favor an lock this thread, as it should have been locked after the initial intercourse. Or let it go on so I can LMFAO some more. :)

The question was asked and answered a long time ago!

There’s a word for looking for the most upsetting interpretation of whatever is said, and that’s “tendentious”. My vision of this forum is never needing to use that word.

Rick “not sifting every word for a reason to be offended” Denney

[rdenney]

So the lesson here is pretty clear. If you post in the classified section, you are of a lower status member and can expect to be treated as such.

It is absolutely true that we consider for-sale posts to be no more than ephemeral—without lasting value. Just like the classifieds in a traditional newspaper. That’s why it is segregated in the forum.

And it is absolutely true that we value contributions to the discussion and image-sharing forums more highly, precisely because those posts have more potential to have lasting value.

It has nothing to do with the value of the people making the posts, as I suspect you know. Forums don’t establish that, people do, by what they do.

Rick “who thought that distinction was clear” Denney

[BrianShaw]

There’s a word for looking for the most upsetting interpretation of whatever is said, and that’s “tendentious”. My vision of this forum is never needing to use that word.

Rick “not sifting every word for a reason to be offended” Denney

Now that you say it, I completely understand. Carry on, madam, sir, or it... whichever may be applicable. Ha ha ha. :)

[Dan Fromm]

Seriously, Rick... you don’t think that referring to a member with a clearly male name as “it” was cold and intentionally offensive?

Brian, how can I be sure what sex you are? You could be anything hiding behind a screen name. So could I. Please certify that you're, human, male, and show ID sufficient to let you board a commercial flight.

So you'll know, I'm non-human, of indeterminate gender and can't fly. The picture of me on the French LF forum is of a hired male model.

[BrianShaw]

Brian, how can I be sure what sex you are? You could be anything hiding behind a screen name. So could I. Please certify that you're, human, male, and show ID sufficient to let you board a commercial flight.

So you'll know, I'm non-human, of indeterminate gender and can't fly. The picture of me on the French LF forum is of a hired male model.

Thanks for that clarification of your composition. I’m not a sex, but affiliate with a carbon-based gender even though I may be a silicon-based device. I’m not sure at times because my artificial intelligence gets confused and keeps changing its mind. But more often than not it gives a credible answer that corresponds with my manufacturer’s identification tag. If I need to fly I’ll let you know so you’ll be on duty at the TSA checkpoint of my local airport!

[Dan Fromm]

Thanks for that clarification of your composition. I’m not a sex, but affiliate with a carbon-based gender even though I may be a silicon-based device. I’m not sure at times because my artificial intelligence gets confused and keeps changing its mind.

Exactly. May I address you as he/she/it?

[BrianShaw]

Exactly. May I address you as he/she/it?

I go by several names, but I dislike impersonal pronouns (they are so very “human):

Please refer to me as “electron”, if making a negative statement.

Please refer to me as “neutron”, if making a noncommittal statement.

Please refer to me as “Brian”, as my fellow devices call me, in all other circumstances.

// FINIS

[Tin Can]

'it' is never correct, unless the subject is Cousin Itt, from the Addams Family (https://addamsfamily.fandom.com/wiki/Cousin_Itt) a very political show I still watch

'they' denotes either he, she or...I can't use the term...https://www.teenvogue.com/story/they-them-questions-answered

My Draft age grandsons understand this well and I didn't teach them...

[BrianShaw]

Do we still have a draft?

[Dan Fromm]

No, but young men still have to register with Selective Service.

[BrianShaw]

...

[Two23]

Eight pages. We going for ten? LOL!


Kent in SD

[Oren Grad]

Checking signal-to-noise meter... needle drifting... drifting... bouncing against zero now.