Xtol - Distilled vs Filtered water

[robbiemcclaran]

I've used Xtol for the past several yeas and am quite happy with it. I recently realized the instructions read specifically to mix it using distilled water. I have a water filtration system for my darkroom, but I realize it is not the same thing as distilled.

Keep in mind, that I live in Portland, Oregon where our water source is mostly from treated rain water and does not have fluoride added. It is considered very soft, as in few minerals.

I have never noticed any ill affects form using my filtered water. So I'm wondering, is it worth the extra effort / expense to switch to distilled for mixing my Xtol?

[Peter De Smidt]

I would say no. If you've been using it for years successfully, then you should be fine. It's always possible that your water will change, but it's also possible to get contaminated distilled water. Basically, there are no absolute guarantees.

[Duolab123]

The current product should work the same as before. I use reverse osmosis water. This eliminates most of the dissolved minerals. High dissolved solids and iron can be a problem with XTOL.
Fluoridated water is of tremendous benefit in preventing tooth decay, and it's harmless to film.:o

[Bruce Watson]

I've used Xtol for the past several yeas and am quite happy with it. I recently realized the instructions read specifically to mix it using distilled water. I have a water filtration system for my darkroom, but I realize it is not the same thing as distilled.

Indeed, it is not. XTOL is sensitive to dissolved iron. Conventional filtration won't take out the iron. Enough iron and you get "sudden XTOL failure" IIRC (search for it on this site -- it was discussed to death back near 2005 or so, many threads, much information to be found in them). That is, you run a batch and it's fine, you run another batch and you get little to no development. No warning, just happens. Kodak traced it back to iron, which is why the instructions now say to use distilled water only.

Easy enough to do, most grocery stores (at least where I live) still sell steam distilled water by the gallon. And the steam distilled water has the side effect of being extremely clean as well; one less source of grunge on the processed film.

[karl french]

Straight out of the tap for me in San Francisco. No problems at all.

[Tin Can]

I mix Rodinol and TF5 with distilled, very clean film, wash is Hass filtered tap

I buy distilled water 9 gallons at a time (at least)

80 cents a gallon

Where i live, we are often under 'boil water until notice'. We also have complete shutdowns a little too often. Last year I had to replace my street to home water line as it was leaking 1000s of gallons a month

I now keep at least 20 gallons distilled on hand and fill 5 gallons tap water buckets in bathtub when i get a whiff of a water problem

Maybe set up roof water collection as it rains a LOT here

I also love to drink chilled distilled, some say it's good for old livers and kidneys, been drinking only distilled for 9 years

https://www.mrwatergeek.com/distilled-water/

[robbiemcclaran]

Thank you. I knew I had read it was a particular mineral that seemed to be the root of the issue. I'm no chemist, hence my query. That said, looking over a recent report on our local water quality, Iron is listed at something like 0.018 PPM, which sounds to me very low indeed. That compares to 10ppm in so called "hard water". So again, our local water is very soft.

Indeed, simply going the next step and using distilled would be easy enough and would insure no future problems.


Indeed, it is not. XTOL is sensitive to dissolved iron. Conventional filtration won't take out the iron. Enough iron and you get "sudden XTOL failure" IIRC (search for it on this site -- it was discussed to death back near 2005 or so, many threads, much information to be found in them). That is, you run a batch and it's fine, you run another batch and you get little to no development. No warning, just happens. Kodak traced it back to iron, which is why the instructions now say to use distilled water only.

Easy enough to do, most grocery stores (at least where I live) still sell steam distilled water by the gallon. And the steam distilled water has the side effect of being extremely clean as well; one less source of grunge on the processed film.

[robbiemcclaran]

Our primary water source is rain water and snow melt that is stored in the Bull Run reservoir, surrounded by old growth forest, 20 or 30 miles east of here, and piped into town. Somewhere along the line they do some treating. I'd be concerned I'd pick up more nasty chemicals from runoff of my asphalt shingles in a rain water capture system. But certainly worth considering, if for no other reason than for disaster prep.

I mix Rodinol and TF5 with distilled, very clean film, wash is Hass filtered tap

I buy distilled water 9 gallons at a time (at least)

80 cents a gallon

Where i live, we are often under 'boil water until notice'. We also have complete shutdowns a little too often. Last year I had to replace my street to home water line as it was leaking 1000s of gallons a month

I now keep at least 20 gallons distilled on hand and fill 5 gallons tap water buckets in bathtub when i get a whiff of a water problem

Maybe set up roof water collection as it rains a LOT here

I also love to drink chilled distilled, some say it's good for old livers and kidneys, been drinking only distilled for 9 years

https://www.mrwatergeek.com/distilled-water/

[karl french]

I have been tempted to pick up one of those table top water distillers. Though I don't used distilled for mixing film processing chemistry, I use a fair bit of it during printmaking for clearing prints and washing brushes.

[BradS]

I've used Xtol for the past several yeas and am quite happy with it. I recently realized the instructions read specifically to mix it using distilled water. I have a water filtration system for my darkroom, but I realize it is not the same thing as distilled.

Keep in mind, that I live in Portland, Oregon where our water source is mostly from treated rain water and does not have fluoride added. It is considered very soft, as in few minerals.

I have never noticed any ill affects form using my filtered water. So I'm wondering, is it worth the extra effort / expense to switch to distilled for mixing my Xtol?


Apparently not. I mean, haven't you already answered your own question? "I have never noticed any ill affects form using my filtered water"

[tgtaylor]

The municipal water source where I live is Hetch Hetchy, the same as in San Francisco, and is an extremely good tap water source. I've used it for years to mix 5L batches of Xtol. However I have noticed a black stringy growth in the unused developer at around 6 months storage in a floating lid container - I usually finish off the 5L well before 6 months. Because of that I switched to steam distilled water and never saw that again even recently with small quality of remaining developer at 7 months out. You can buy steam distilled water at Walmart for 80 cents a gallon.

Thomas

[rfesk]

I have a cabinet sized distiller and have been using water from that for all cooking, drinking and developing for at least 20 years. Walmart's price is very good however.

[Duolab123]

I worked in chemistry labs for too long. We did a lot of elemental analysis, specifically, calcium, iron, copper, zinc, magnesium, manganese. .... We ran the tests using atomic emission / absorption spectroscopy, pretty low tech by today's methods. We used mixed bed deionization tanks from Culligan. This removed all ions, metals, nitrates etc. The water was 10 million ohm resistance (per cubic centimeter? ) wouldn't conduct electricity, that pure.

Zero Water pitchers use this same technology. Here's the catch, if you have a lot of TDS in your water, the Zero Water cartridges go FAST. Your water ends up costing you 5 dollars a gallon.

I installed a RO system that I bought online, it uses generic filters that go into a canister. Basically all you replace are cheap particulate and charcoal filters, the RO membrane lasts forever. This drops my TDS from over 500 mg/l to about 20.

The drawback of RO is it wastes water. Uses water to wash the membrane when it's making fresh RO water.

Definitely by far the easiest thing to do is buy jugs of distilled water. I was involved in water filtration, so I have to have the toys :o

[alt.kafka]

I wondered about my water hardness, because it just seemed like there was always a lot of residue if I ever let anything stand to dry. It turned out to be exactly normal. But still, it made me think that whatever was in there was some uncontrolled factor that just wasn't worth thinking about. I briefly considered buying a table top distiller, but that would be just one more thing to maintain, and jugs of distilled water are just too cheap and easy.

[Duolab123]

I wondered about my water hardness, because it just seemed like there was always a lot of residue if I ever let anything stand to dry. It turned out to be exactly normal. But still, it made me think that whatever was in there was some uncontrolled factor that just wasn't worth thinking about. I briefly considered buying a table top distiller, but that would be just one more thing to maintain, and jugs of distilled water are just too cheap and easy.

I operated water stills in the 1980s. They are a pain, the steam generator gets so caked with lime. We used formic acid to clean. If all you use pure water for is developers, pretty easy to buy.
I use RO water for all my darkroom solutions. I live in extremely hard water area, we soften, but that leaves a lot of sodium carbonate in the water.
My wife grew up in New York state, near NYC. The water in that area is so nice.

[Tin Can]

My average rainfall is 46"

Maybe I just set barrels out

I am in a good location to avoid airborne crap

[Renato Tonelli]

I have been tempted to pick up one of those table top water distillers. Though I don't used distilled for mixing film processing chemistry, I use a fair bit of it during printmaking for clearing prints and washing brushes.

I have such a unit (small, tabletop); creates a lot of heat and takes several hours to produce a gallon of distilled water. All supermarkets near me carry distilled water and that has become my source.
On the other hand, when I am in Italy (mountain area), distilled water is not easily available (the drinking water is excellent) and resolved to use the same type of unit to produce distilled water: reason being that I want to keep film development the same (no variation due to water quality), whether processed there or in the USA.

[Sal Santamaura]

...My wife grew up in New York state, near NYC. The water in that area is so nice.When I left the NYC area in 1978, municipal water received absolutely no treatment of any kind -- none was needed. Things seem to have changed since then:


https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/dep/downloads/pdf/water/drinking-water/drinking-water-supply-quality-report/2018-drinking-water-supply-quality-report.pdf

That probably explains why Renato uses distilled water there today:


I have such a unit (small, tabletop); creates a lot of heat and takes several hours to produce a gallon of distilled water. All supermarkets near me carry distilled water and that has become my source...

[Willie]

All the WalMart distilled water jugs. Plastics. No one has a problem with all that plastic going into the trash?

[Renato Tonelli]

All the WalMart distilled water jugs. Plastics. No one has a problem with all that plastic going into the trash?

I have a problem with it - I recycle. BTW: Making your own distilled water uses quite a bit of electricity and most power plants are not very environmentally friendly.

A note on New York City Water: I can’t speak for the quality of it - it is considered one of the safest and best, quality-wise, of big municipal waters in the US. My issue is with the pipes delivering it: in both the University darkroom I manage and my home, it must be filtered or the negatives will be blotchy with rust stains. After a week of normal use the filters are clogged with black-rust colored, thick slime. When I lived in the Bronx (still NYC water), no filter was needed; I realized now that it came from a more recently built water tunnel and the delivery plumbing was relatively new.

[Tin Can]

Yes, I do

Around here we bury all trash in old strip mines.

But a Still that fails and is scrapped is also trash, the metal recycler is too far to justify the gas

For a decade now i have brought my own bags to stores and don't bag vegetables or fruit in another bag.

I was recycling cardboard, but it is no longer wanted by China, which I can understand.

My problem is I see a second and third use for anything, so I have stuff, but not hoarding crap.


Making distilled water is just too costly right now. but I can make a stove top distiller in a jiffy

Wish I had my 60's cars, just in case, as they are easier to make into a Methane vehicle, but since I can hack any car into submission, i'll wait until SHTF. There will be plenty of cars to use...


https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/11/gas-bag-vehicles.html


All the WalMart distilled water jugs. Plastics. No one has a problem with all that plastic going into the trash?

[robbiemcclaran]

All the WalMart distilled water jugs. Plastics. No one has a problem with all that plastic going into the trash?

Honestly, that was my primary reason for using filtered tap water. Here in Portland you can recycle plastic jugs, although since China no longer takes the material I have my suspicion it gets landfilled.

That said, I'm running some tests to see if there is any difference. If I decide to start using distilled in plastic I'll try hard to find ways to re-use the jugs, storage for emergency disaster water for example. I don't go through such a large volume that it would be significant but it is an important point worth considering.

[Tin Can]

I find 1 in 5 plastic bottles leak, some slow some fast.

I check each bottle's bottom with my hand as some are leaking in the store.

My grocery get their plastic bottle water in heavy cardboard, 4 to a case, so i am switching to them, easy to see if leaking and better packaged.

I never buy soda pop or other poison in plastic bottles.




Honestly, that was my primary reason for using filtered tap water. Here in Portland you can recycle plastic jugs, although since China no longer takes the material I have my suspicion it gets landfilled.

That said, I'm running some tests to see if there is any difference. If I decide to start using distilled in plastic I'll try hard to find ways to re-use the jugs, storage for emergency disaster water for example. I don't go through such a large volume that it would be significant but it is an important point worth considering.

[scott palmer]

I have been tempted to pick up one of those table top water distillers. Though I don't used distilled for mixing film processing chemistry, I use a fair bit of it during printmaking for clearing prints and washing brushes.

The table top distillers are expensive, approximately $200, and they produce the end product slowly. I think they usually take a couple hours to produce one gallon. When you factor in the convenience and ease of buying it from the grocery store, electrical costs, cost of the unit, and typical monthly usage, I found it much, much more attractive to just buy it at Safeway. You can always find it for $1.00 a gallon. I'd like to find a source for 5 gallon containers, but haven't, so far.

[Duolab123]

I go through my friends recycling for big plastic bottles. One of my friends buys something called Arizona iced tea. The bottles are heavy, thick, 1 gallon plastic bottles. I've scored 4 so far.
I use reverse osmosis system, works great. You can build your own from parts. Waterfiltersonline.com is where I've gotten stuff for over 10 years. Make sure not to buy the quick change type. The plastic canister type will take anyone's filters.

[Pere Casals]

using distilled water. I have a water filtration system for my darkroom, but I realize it is not the same thing as distilled.

I have never noticed any ill affects form using my filtered water. So I'm wondering, is it worth the extra effort / expense to switch to distilled for mixing my Xtol?

If you use a reverse osmosis system filter then your water will be good for sure.

What harms Xtol shelf life is iron content in the water, check that content in reports about your water supply system.




I have never noticed any ill affects form using my filtered water. So I'm wondering, is it worth the extra effort / expense to switch to distilled for mixing my Xtol?

For peace of mind, use ditilled or reverse osmosis filtered, specially if the stock developer will be for months in the shelf.

Make a drop test to know developer strengh when fresh and over time. (let fall a drop of developer on a film end each minute lights open, then fix, then compare the "drops" to see)

[Duolab123]

https://www.waterfiltersonline.com/5-stage-reverse-osmosis-ro-pure-drinking-water-system.html


This is the system I have. No proprietary quick change filters. You can buy filters from anyone. We probably use on average 3-4 gallons a day. Drinking water and my darkroom. I only need to change filters every couple of years. Filter 1, is a common string filter, takes out sediment, 2 is GAC (granular activated charcoal, the charcoal from coconut shells is prefered), 3 is a carbon block, the carbon takes out the organics and reduces chlorine levels. The 4th is the actual reverse osmosis membrane, this is where you eliminate ions, calcium, iron, chloride, on and on. The 5th filter is a carbon polishing filter for taste.

Biggest issue with RO, is it uses a LOT of water to make the pure. Depends on the levels of impurities. Maybe 2 to 4 gallons used to make 1 gallon of pure. If you are operating an enormous plant to desalinate sea water, where all you do is run pumps with solar power. Then no big deal. If you have to pay for municipal water and your sewer fees are based on water use. Depends on where you are. If I lived in California or some other place that struggles with water usage I would only use purified water when required.
I never needed any kind of purifier where I grew up. But for the last 30 years my water supplies have been loaded with minerals, even softened water here ends up with s much sodium carbonate it's not usable with developers like XTOL, tap works fine for stop and washing.

[Writingskin]

It's awesome to see your commitment to reducing waste and repurposing items! Being mindful of our environmental impact is so important. It's a bummer that making distilled water can be costly, but it's great that you have the skills to whip up a stove-top distiller when needed.
By the way, if you're ever looking for ways to improve your water quality, you might want to check out this nanofiltration water filter (https://www.wecofilters.com/nf-0950.html), which can help you get clean and safe water.