Question for sinar norma owners

[C. D. Keth]

I recently bought a sinar Norma (actually two, long story) and I ran into an adjustment or maintenance question that I can’t figure out:

My camera has locking fine focus via a small collar that surrounds the stem for the fine focus knob. The trouble is that locking the fine focus moves the focus. I can’t seem to prevent this.

Does anybody know the correct way to adjust this type of fine focus and lock? I am wary of just trying things because of the ease of stripping threads in aluminum.


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[Jimi]

I think a few photographs might help anyone more mechanically adept than me to figure the issue out. It sounds to me like old grime getting in the way, since locking down moves something else out of place.

[Tin Can]

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?154373-Norma-maintenance-manual-8x10-swing-question&p=1518408&viewfull=1#post1518408

I am an owner

[John Layton]

I am not a Norma owner...but am very familiar with the inherent cross-interference problems with coaxial focus locks. Sounds to me like there may either be an abundance of age-thickened grease which is causing co-rotation, and/or one or both controls being slightly off-axis...perhaps from a past impact. The "thickened grease" theory can sometimes be tested by gently heating up the mechanism to thin out the grease (I actually rescued an otherwise valuable lens this way), although it may be best to just clean and re-lube...and rotation can be carefully observed while in action to note anything that looks to be off-axis.

Good luck...and hopefully a few more actual Norma owners will chime in!

[Greg]

On one of the Norma's that I had purchased over the years, had the same "problem". Was "age-thickened grease" as John Layton put it. Have overhauled several Normas over the years before finding the following guide:

http://doczz.net/doc/2811502/the-rough-guide-to-cleaning--lubricating--and-adjusting-t...

As the Guide first states: Important thing to gently tighten the screws, it is easy to over torque them of you use a screwdriver with a large handle... trust me on that! Also I have always worked on the camera in a 20x24 tray in the darkroom sink. Couple of times almost lost small parts, but working in the tray saved me.

Greg

[C. D. Keth]

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?154373-Norma-maintenance-manual-8x10-swing-question&p=1518408&viewfull=1#post1518408

I am an owner

I have a copy already but I can’t find where it addresses how the sleeve that holds the focus lock fits into the base of the standard. I wonder if I’m missing part or if I’m just overlooking it.


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[Tin Can]

It is dense data, have you looked at both the text and video?

I haven't memorized the whole thing and likely won't

I am well past that feat.


I have a copy already but I can’t find where it addresses how the sleeve that holds the focus lock fits into the base of the standard. I wonder if I’m missing part or if I’m just overlooking it.


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[C. D. Keth]

I think a few photographs might help anyone more mechanically adept than me to figure out the issue. It sounds to me like old grime getting in the way, since locking down moves something else out of place.

I think you’re right. I think old grime inside the locking collar is part of the problem. The connection of that locking collar to the standard base is the other issue.

Perhaps this will help illustrate:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200129/df5581c16116c274128073b0756a27fd.jpg


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[C. D. Keth]

It is dense data, have you looked at both the text and video?

I haven't memorized the whole thing and likely won't

I am well past that feat.

Admittedly have not watched the video. I will do once I get home and can view on a screen larger than a phone.


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[Bernice Loui]

Reminder to get the how to DIY clean, lube, adjust your Sinar Norma done. This parts break down might help for now.

~"DO NOT turn the focus mechanism flats with a wrench, you'll destroy the high precision fit between the chrome plated brass shaft of the focusing mechanism against the aluminum housing as the entire assembly is held in place by two hidden set screws."~

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?152345-Sinar-Norma-quot-It-s-stuck-I-ll-just-add-Hi-Tech-lube-quot-Part-II&highlight=norma

There is absolutely ZERO wrong with a concentric or coaxial focus mechanism as designed-used in a Sinar Norma, what happens is over many decades hard use and neglect the lubricant dries out turns into clay and mixed with dirt causes the high precision swiss parts to bind causing a host of other problems. Taking the thing apart, clean, lube, properly adjust will bring back just how precise and excellent this mechanism functions. As a Raven barking, the precision, quality of build and design make the majority of view cameras look like plastic, plant cellulose or stamped metal toys. It is that good.

There is a picture of the Sinar Norma focusing mechanism taken apart, that might help for now.

The outer ring with the handle is held on by two set screws to allow adjusting the position of the small handle to best suite the user's preference of where the focus lock needs to be.


Bernice



I think you’re right. I think old grime inside the locking collar is part of the problem. The connection of that locking collar to the standard base is the other issue.

Perhaps this will help illustrate:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200129/df5581c16116c274128073b0756a27fd.jpg


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[C. D. Keth]

That helps a great deal, Bernice. Those set screws that hold the locking collet are accessible once the fine focus mechanism is split into top and bottom halves?

[Jimi]

I think you’re right. I think old grime inside the locking collar is part of the problem. The connection of that locking collar to the standard base is the other issue.


Thanks for the photo - I wasn't sure exactly what you meant, but now I see (pardon the pun). From the three 4x5s I have had (been handling a few more), my personal experience is that the Normas are very well constructed and any non-functionality often comes down to dirt and grime rather than parts actually failing. Bernice knows the way ... hats off! :)

[Bernice Loui]

The focus locking collar is made in two parts, the threaded cone which clamps down on the split collet with the pinion gear (single piece of stainless steel) and the ring with handle. This ring has two set screws on it to allow adjustment. What often happens, a previous owner will attempt to make an "adjustment" of the focusing system by wrenching on the two flats on the focus mechanism. This effectively rips up the brass focusing mechanism shaft OD (Horrid to take apart once this happens, one of the used "Mint Condition" Normas had this happen, the entire mess had to be worked on using a collet lathe to 0.001" or better tolerances) or jams the pinion gear against the rack causing the gears to bind, worst would be when a LOT of force is applied to these flats bending the pinion gear or impaling the rack gear causing all sorts of grief and damage. These flats are use to adjust the gear lash between the pinion to rack gear. Once this is set, the adjustment is held in place by to BIG set screws. One in direct sight line with the focus mechanism exterior at the other set screw is hidden behind one of the rail guide pins underneath the focus mechanism. The guide pin is held in place by a set screw. Remove the set screw to remove the guide pin, then the focus mechanism hold down screw is accessible. The entire focus mechanism is built and adjusted as a system unit. Removal of both set screws allows extraction of the focus mechanism for service.

I'll try to post how to pix maybe later tonight as time permits.


Bernice



That helps a great deal, Bernice. Those set screws that hold the locking collet are accessible once the fine focus mechanism is split into top and bottom halves?

[C. D. Keth]

I'll try to post how to pix maybe later tonight as time permits.


Bernice

That would be very helpful if you have a chance. I'm sure your instructions will "click" once I have the mechanism right in front of me but I'm sure I'm not the only person needing to service this particular part.

[C. D. Keth]

Bernice, I went home and, with the camera in front of me, your instructions made perfect sense.

With that and the printed CLA guide I cleaned up, lubricated, and adjusted both of the standards of my 8x10 and it just feels 100% better. The old grease was closer to the consistency of beeswax than of grease.

Thanks!


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[Bernice Loui]

Excellent to hear another Sinar Norma got restored to good operating condition. These view cameras are such a joy and delight to use when they are in proper working order. IMO, there is nothing else like this Sinar system in the world of view cameras.

Producing the pictures and write up on how to service a Norma remains on the list as there are likely a significant number of VC folks that can benefit from this and the more knowledge about the innate goodness of a Norma will help it's place in the future of VC image making.

IMO, it is unfair and not proper to judge a Norma or any image making tool based only on appearance alone, there is a long list of mechanical and very real operational realities that are often more important than appearance alone. This is why a "mint" visual condition camera is not always the ideal tool for expressive image making.

:)
Bernice



Bernice, I went home and, with the camera in front of me, your instructions made perfect sense.

With that and the printed CLA guide I cleaned up, lubricated, and adjusted both of the standards of my 8x10 and it just feels 100% better. The old grease was closer to the consistency of beeswax than of grease.

Thanks!


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[Greg]

This is why a "mint" visual condition camera is not always the ideal tool for expressive image making.
:)
Bernice

Around the year 2000 wanted to acquire a second 4x5 Sinar Norma for a number of reasons. Saw one on eBay going for a rather high premium price. It was described to be in "Mint" condition, and the image that was posted seemed to visually confirm that. Received the camera and from a few feet away, yes it looked to be in "Mint" condition. On close inspection, I found it to be a camera that was put together from various Norma parts by someone who did not know what they were doing. Returned the camera. Then I saw a Buy-It-Now 4x5 Sinar Norma that had been in a studio fire and obviously looked it. I took a real chance and bought it for somewheres around $150. When the camera arrived, yes it obviously looked to be in terrible condition, but only cosmetically and superficially. In the end all that was wrong with the camera was that it had a terrible case of smoke damage. Took a while to clean it up with minimal disassembly. Once cleaned, the bellows even looked to be new. In the end it actually turned out to be in just almost mint condition and everything operated flawlessly. Still use it today.