Kodak 2D Light Leaks

[Two23]

A continuation of my post in the processing forum, "Processing Woes."

I've determined that my problem isn't processing but is light leaks on the camera back. The back would not seat tightly into the rear standard so I carefully looked at all four clips on the standard and the eight pins on the 8x10 back. Turns out there was one pin missing from the back, so I replaced it. Another wasn't sitting up high enough to reliably catch so I pulled it up with pliers. Second issue were the clips. The one on the lower right was bent downwards, and allowed the back to rock back and forth. It also wasn't pulling the back tightly against the standard. I unscrewed and removed the clip, carefully and slowly bent it back into position and reinstalled. The clip on the top left was also bent, this time upwards. I removed it and carefully bent it downwards just a bit, reinstalled. Rechecking, this seemed to pull the back up much tighter. There is still some light showing when I stick a bright flashlight inside and shine it directly through the crack, but when I do the same thing with my 5x7 Gundlach Korona it does the same thing but doesn't show any fogging on my film. The other problem is the 8x10 back is slightly warped (checked it by placing on a sheet of glass.) The adjustments to the clips seem to have been enough to pull the back into shape when mounted.

Now for the final issue. I tried three different film holders in the 8x10 back and saw the same thing. They don't seem to cover the opening completely, especially the top corners (with back in portrait/vertical orientation.) No amount of fiddling could totally eliminate this. The two film backs I tried (a modern plastic one and a vintage black Kodak wooden one) both have a ridge/lip along the top to act as a light trap, but they don' go far enough across to completely seal. Today I received a Stenopeika wet plate holder. It has no ridges on the face at all and there is a bit more light leak. Not sure what to think about this. The Chamonix and Lund do have a ridge, but don't accept full cut 8x10. Not sure what to do. If I try the Stenopeika and it doesn't work for me don't know if I can return it used. I have a Lund 4x5 wet plate holder but don't like it--very fiddly and cheap. I have a Chamonix 5x7 wet plate holder and like it as it's very well built but it won't take full size 5x7 (or 8x10 plates). Hopefully the light leak of the Stenopeika won't matter but it clearly doesn't seal up as well as my Chamonix and Lund do in my Chamonix 045n and Gundlach Korona 5x7. It's also very bulky and heavy.

There are a few things I like about the Kodak 2D, mainly the big 6 inch lens boards, but all in all I might have been happier with the more finely finished Gundlach Korona 8x10. I'll see how the 2D works now that I've adjusted the clips. Crossing my fingers! Any suggestions, I'm listening!


Kent in SD

[Doremus Scudder]

A photo of the misalignment problem (gap) between holder and seat/back would be worth a thousand words...

There are a lot of 2D owners out there who can diagnose your problem at a glance.

Doremus

[chuck461]

How old is the D2? I wonder if was made for the older plate holders and not the more modern film holders. Were plate holders a standard size or specific to the manufacturer? If it was made for the older plate holders it probably won't accept a newer film holder.

I don't have these answers, but someone here does.

[Vaughn]

Camera backs are not necessarily designed to be light tight without a film holder in it. Testing with a holder installed is needed -- not sure you have done it by your post.

I am not sure what you mean by your holders do not completely cover the opening...what opening? My holders (4x5 to 11x14) all seem to have a certain amount of wiggle room side-to-side when in 'portrait mode' -- up to 1/8 inch with the Chamonix 11x14, my Zone VI 8x10 and my 2D 8x10. Never has been a problem -- enough wood to holder contact 360 degrees. If it is a problem, glue some felt in, perhaps?

[jim_jm]

I've got a later 8x10 2D (1940's) and a 5x7 Eastman View #2 from before 1920, and they both use standard film and dry plate holders without any problem. Even though they're decades apart, construction and design are almost identical.
After refurbishing the 2D, it did take time to diagnose a few light leaks coming from where the 8x10 back attached to the rear standard, mostly in the corners. I've been able to identify and mitigate all of these by shining a flashlight from inside the camera, then adding adhesive foam/felt strips where appropriate. I use printing paper rather than film for light leak testing as it's quite a bit cheaper.
I've also found that some holders are prone to leaks if you insert the dark slides corner-first, rather than straight in.

[Bertha DeCool]

I've also found that some holders are prone to leaks if you insert the dark slides corner-first, rather than straight in.

ALWAYS straight in!

[Two23]

I went out and shot two sheets as a test. Lens was a Nikon 300mm f9 M known to be good. I used the modern Lisco Regal holder, FP4+. Conditions were heavy overcast--exposure was ISO 125, f32, 1/2s. Film holder was slid into the back from the camera left (as facing the waterfall.) First shot I made sure the film holder was locked in front and rear, covering any visible gap against the holder. Second shot was the same everything only this time I placed my black jacket over the rear of the camera. I did have trouble inserting the floppy darkslide back in and I think I did try sticking just a corner in first.

So, while I've improved the light leak I haven't eliminated it by any means. Note how the image looks normal on the left side, which was opposite where the darkslide goes in, and was opened so I could pull it out. What sort of photos of the camera back can I take to help you better diagnose?


Kent in SD

[Two23]

I put my 5x7 back on the 2D and headed back to the falls this afternoon. Pretty much the same conditions--heavy overcast/light mist, 22 F degrees. I took two shots using Fuji 180mm f5.6 lens: ISO 125, f32, 1/2s. I took one shot with the back covered with a black jacket and one uncovered. There was no difference! This means the light leak is with the 8x10 back, which narrows it down for me. Now on to something else I think I've figured out. Notice the weird look of the falls? I been getting that in all my photos with this camera. At first I thought it was a processing error, then thought it was a light leak. I now think it's a natural phenomenon. I think it's freezing spray coming off the waterfall, and the long shutter speed is making it appear as a shiny surface? The part of the image where there would be no fine mist/spray is perfectly clear as I would expect.

Now back to tracking down and fixing that damn light leak on the 8x10 back! It's costing me money.


Kent in SD

[Mark Sampson]

Be persistent, Kent; light leaks can be difficult to track down. You'll get there, though.
Remember that Edward Weston suffered from similar troubles with his cameras... and overcame them to make many memorable photographs. (And complained bitterly about light leaks, numerous times, in his Daybooks.)

[Vaughn]

Setting up on snow, you'll also have a considerable amount of light coming up from the snow below the camera..

[Two23]

I think I've found the biggest source of the light leak. On the top of the 8x10 back there is a brass channel strip, "P" shaped. It runs across the top of the back. It looks like it's there to give more stability and prevent wear as film holders are slid in. The problem isn't the flat part of the strip that's on the top, but the part that sticks down between the GG frame and the back. It's about 2mm thick. This prevents the holders from laying flat against the opening. When I push the holders all the way in so the lip on the holder engages this brass strip, the bottom of the holder sticks out past the bottom of the 8x10 back and leaves a big gap. I found no way to insert either a modern or vintage dark slide into the back where the holder would sit completely flush against the frame. The brass "P" strip interfered. Has anyone else seen this? When I removed the strip the holders so lay flat and there is very little if any light leak around the film holders. Why is that strip there?

Red arrow points to the brass strip.


Kent in SD

[DMS206]

The brass rail is on the wrong side, it should be on the side opposite where you insert the film holder, it is a stop for the film holder, someone put the ground glass frame on upside down
Dave

[Two23]

Now that makes sense! As it is there is nothing to prevent the holder from slipping out. Camera was disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled by the guy I bought it from. Will try flipping things around tonight. Thanks!


Kent in SD

[C. D. Keth]

Now that makes sense! As it is there is nothing to prevent the holder from slipping out.

WHen you flip the ground glass, you'll find a channel that will fit a ridge in the light trap end of each face on your holders. That keeps it from coming out and tells you the holder is seated fully.

[Doremus Scudder]

Photos of the correct installation anyone?

[diversey]

Just unscrew the grand glass frame (2 pins on one side) and rotate it 180 degrees. The previous owner did not install the grand glass frame correctly.

200144200145

[Louis Pacilla]

I think I've found the biggest source of the light leak. On the top of the 8x10 back there is a brass channel strip, "P" shaped. It runs across the top of the back. It looks like it's there to give more stability and prevent wear as film holders are slid in. The problem isn't the flat part of the strip that's on the top, but the part that sticks down between the GG frame and the back. It's about 2mm thick. This prevents the holders from laying flat against the opening. When I push the holders all the way in so the lip on the holder engages this brass strip, the bottom of the holder sticks out past the bottom of the 8x10 back and leaves a big gap. I found no way to insert either a modern or vintage dark slide into the back where the holder would sit completely flush against the frame. The brass "P" strip interfered. Has anyone else seen this? When I removed the strip the holders so lay flat and there is very little if any light leak around the film holders. Why is that strip there?

Red arrow points to the brass strip.


Kent in SD

Kent that brass piece under your ground glass frame is a booster spring for your ground glass spring. one sits one the top of main springs on each side. Again it sits on the top of the main spring then the 2 screws go through both. In the photo you posted this is laying underneath your main spring instead of on top of them.

I hope you get what I'm saying as this is a different build problem to the one others have alerted you to. The improper placed holder stop they mentioned is the main culprit but you may as well fix your misplaced booster spring at the same time.

BTW you can use the camera without those booster springs but 1st remove them and at that point may as well reinstall them properly.

[Two23]

The GG frame was indeed installed upside down! I can't believe I didn't catch that. This is where another set of eyes is a great thing. I flipped it around and put the helper spring on top of the main spring. The back now works as it should, and the Stenopeika wet plate holder looks like it will be fine. I gave it all the flashlight test and didn't see any more leaks. I loaded up a holder with two sheets of FP4+ again and headed back to the waterfall. I took two shots without covering the camera back. Exposure was f32, 1/2s, ISO 125 on a heavy overcast day. Processed the film in my SP810 with correct temp & chemical ratios. There was no obvious light leak.

However, I still have the weird look to the water areas on the negative. I've been thinking it's do to spray in the air and how the long exposure treats it, but I'm not so sure. I scanned using Vuescan and processed in PS. The exposure graph on Photoshop showed it was about a stop over exposed? I used my Minolta IVf incident meter which in the past has been correct. Of course, the ground is deep snow. Will shoot two sheets again tomorrow at one stop less exposure and see what happens. Thanks for the help so far--I think my camera problem is solved.


Kent in SD

[Andrew Tymon]

Looks like you are still having development issues, I'm guessing it's not from the scanning. The weird look to the water looks like the negative was solarized. Is light getting into the tank? Maybe you could try processing in really subdued light to see if that's the problem. What's your agitation schedule? Are you giving constant agitation for the first 30 seconds?

[Two23]

Agitate for 30s, then 4 tips or agitate for 10s every minute. Never had problems using the sp445. Must be something I'm doing with the SP810. Will try your suggestions.


Kent in SD

[Andrew Tymon]

Agitate for 30s, then 4 tips or agitate for 10s every minute. Never had problems using the sp445. Must be something I'm doing with the SP810. Will try your suggestions.


Kent in SD

Maybe it's the 10 seconds ever minute routine, maybe you could try two alternate lifts every 30 seconds?
I just looked at your other thread and it seems you got better (more even) results in your first tests where you agitated every 30 seconds. Do you pre wet the film before pouring in the developer?

[RichardRitter]

I think I've found the biggest source of the light leak. On the top of the 8x10 back there is a brass channel strip, "P" shaped. It runs across the top of the back. It looks like it's there to give more stability and prevent wear as film holders are slid in. The problem isn't the flat part of the strip that's on the top, but the part that sticks down between the GG frame and the back. It's about 2mm thick. This prevents the holders from laying flat against the opening. When I push the holders all the way in so the lip on the holder engages this brass strip, the bottom of the holder sticks out past the bottom of the 8x10 back and leaves a big gap. I found no way to insert either a modern or vintage dark slide into the back where the holder would sit completely flush against the frame. The brass "P" strip interfered. Has anyone else seen this? When I removed the strip the holders so lay flat and there is very little if any light leak around the film holders. Why is that strip there?

Red arrow points to the brass strip.


Kent in SD

Looks like the glue joint is failing. This could be a source of problem.

[Two23]

OK, I think I've got things all sorted out now. :) There were several issues. First, a pin was missing from the 8x10 back. Second, two of the tabs/clips that engage the pins were bent and wouldn't hold the back in place. Third, slight warp in the 8x10 back. Fourth, the GG assembly was upside down and holders wouldn't seat correctly! Fifth, the helper springs for the GG fram were installed wrong. Sixth, I was being sloppy with measuring chemicals when processing. Seventh, my wife had changed the settings on my Epson scanner making it look like solarization! Turns out the highlights were clipping. Eighth, I was overexposing by almost a stop because of the icy fog and snow. It looks like I'm finally up and running though as the two shots I took tonight came out nice.

Thanks to all that offered advice!

Kent in SD