HP5+ and Pyrocat HD in a Jobo CPP3

[sperdynamite]

I'm trying to work out my error in metering or processing. I shot 5 8x10 sheets of HP5+ at 200 ISO yesterday. I then ran them at 68˚F in a 3005 drum for about 7.75 minutes, 50 RPM. I typically spot metered the shadows and closed down 2 stops or if I felt the light was very even I used my incident meter. I mixed up the Pyrocat HD at 1:1:100 and made 1L.

My results are some very thin negatives with almost no shadow information at all. There was a mix of snow and ground for sure. But I was never using the snow as a target with my spot meter, more like darkened tree trunks. And I didn't think my incident would be thrown off by the snow. I was focusing at distances no less than 20 feet, so bellows factor should have been no big thing.

Just very weird as my metering errors when they happen are usually not on EVERY sheet, and usually not so far off. Are my times correct for Pyrocat? I pulled them off of the massive dev chart and adjusted for rotary.

[Alan9940]

Hard to tell about the bellows factor as you don't mention what lens was used; focusing at "no less than 20 feet" with a 600mm lens is something very different than the same with a 240mm. But, let's say you did everything right...based on my many years of experience with Pyrocat-HD, I'd guess your developer has gone awry. At this point you may be thinking... Wait, this is fresh stuff that I just bought from the Formulary. No guarantee. Quite a few threads around the 'net regarding potentially bad Pyrocat from the Formulary. I can't confirm this because I always mix my own.

Oh, and I forgot... Isn't 50RPM the speed you'd run for any "normal" developer? Staining developers should be run at the slowest speed available.

[Andrew Tymon]

Has your Pyrocat stopped working? Usually thin negs are a sign it is no longer working properly. If you have a scrap of exposed film but undeveloped try making up 200ml and processing it as you would normally. It should go almost black if it is working correctly if it doesn't build density ( think highlights) then your part A is no longer good.

[Willie]

Look at the negatives and tell us if they are underdeveloped or underexposed.

[sperdynamite]

I was shooting with a 360 6.8 and a 240 5.6. I think the negatives are probably under exposed but also possibly the developer has gone. I think I should just stick to using my normal XTol replenished when it comes to sheet films, and leave the staining developers to roll films where the degree of enlargement is so much higher.

I made some test exposures today and they came out perfectly using XTol and roughly the same techniques.

[agregov]

Couple possible issues:

1. Processing 5 sheets of 8x10 in a 3005 drum in 1lt of Pyrocat 1:1:100 chemistry is likely not enough chemistry to cover that amount of film. It would likely be better to go with 2:2:100 in 1lt of chemistry if you want to process 5 sheets at a time. You could probably get away with 3 8x10 sheets in 1lt of 1:1:100 dilution.
2. This has been a raging debate in the forum as of late, but based on my experience, using liquid Pyrocat HD chemistry from Formulary can cause thin negs depending on age of the chemistry. I would use either Bostick & Sullivan Pyrocat HD or mix with raw chemicals yourself.
3. While I don't think this is not a factor in your case, you should be turning down the rotation speed of your drum to somewhere between 25-35 on your CPP3. If you are following Sandy's instructions for processing Pryocat HD in drums, he recommends the slowest setting. In the CPP3, I personally think the slowest setting is too slow. But slower than 50 would be better to slow down oxidation and staining of the negs.

[esearing]

Is dilution critical for rotary if you go over the required minimum amount of developer(within reason)? I would think you want to prevent oxidation of the developer so would use something like 50A+50B to 1 liter for 5 8x10 sheets for such a short processing time under 8 minutes. or 10/10/1000 per 8x10, or possibly 10/10/500.

[mpirie]

I would agree with the collective above.......it sounds as if your developer has oxidised.

I had similar problems with Pyro HD and resolved it by using a 2+2+100 (1+1+50) dilution in my 2500 tanks.

Mike

[chris_4622]

Your time developing at that dilution is not right in my experience. I always use 2:2:100 with Pyrocat HD and I always use the slowest speed on my Jobo, 7 1/2 minutes should yield a negative with good density.

[sperdynamite]

Re my rotation speed, I was just a bit worried that I wasn't going to get a full rotation if I went any slower.

[mpirie]

I can't speak for the CPP3, but on my CPA2 the rotation speed is governed by the rotary control and the reversing is triggered by the crow's foot. So you get a full two and a quarter rotations before the direction changes.

If the CPP3 uses timed rotation, then yes, your number of rotations before reversing would be affected by the speed.

My FP4 in PyroHD is 8 mins at 20C with a rotation speed of F.

Since this is a slow speed, i lift the tank up to an angle of around 40 degrees every minute to break up any laminar flow of the developer and to remove air bells before lowering back to horizontal.

Mike

[chris_4622]

I can't speak for the CPP3, but on my CPA2 the rotation speed is governed by the rotary control and the reversing is triggered by the crow's foot. So you get a full two and a quarter rotations before the direction changes.

If the CPP3 uses timed rotation, then yes, your number of rotations before reversing would be affected by the speed.

My FP4 in PyroHD is 8 mins at 20C with a rotation speed of F.

Since this is a slow speed, i lift the tank up to an angle of around 40 degrees every minute to break up any laminar flow of the developer and to remove air bells before lowering back to horizontal.

Mike

The CPA2 is the one I have and I run it at F. When I used to develop in tubes in a water bath my rotation speed was even slower than what the Jobo does so the OP at 50 rpm seems quite high.

I don't know how you lift the tank up to 40 degrees without stopping the motor. I've never had a problem with uneven development using the Jobo but I am developing whole plate negatives in the tank that fits 8x10 so maybe that has something to do with it. I have noticed it's important not to push the film all the way to the bottom of the tank, that can change density along that edge of the film.

chris

[esearing]

Your time developing at that dilution is not right in my experience. I always use 2:2:100 with Pyrocat HD and I always use the slowest speed on my Jobo, 7 1/2 minutes should yield a negative with good density.

7.30 vs 7:45 ? And how many 8x10 sheets are you processing, volume/dilution (10.10.500 vs 20.20.1000), and at what temperature. What EI do you meter? Does your process include or exclude fill and dump times. You have to state all your variables to be meaningful.
mpirie - The 2500 tank is for roll film on reels so I assume you are processing 1 roll which is equivalent to 1 8x10 sheet and using < 300ml solution.

I am interested in these things because I am considering a Jobo for my tiny darkroom.

[mpirie]

Eric, I'm using the 2500 series tanks with 2509n reels, so up to 6 sheets of 5x4 film, though i never put more than 4 sheets in at a time. I do use the same tanks with the 120 reels occasionally and use 300ml of working solutions.

Sandy's recommendation of 75ml working Pyrocat HD per 5x4 ties up nicely with 300ml and 4 sheets.

Chris, with the motor running, i can lift the tank while it's still in the lift cradle and let the gears reengage when i lower the lift back into the water bath. It may serve no purpose, but allows me to mix up any dev flow patterns and remove air bells.

Mike

[Greg]

I am interested in these things because I am considering a Jobo for my tiny darkroom.

Just passing on my experiences with JOBO drums. I use the following JOBO drums:

#3005 for processing up to 5 sheets of 8x10 and/or whole plate film. Have never had any problems with film scratching. I do rinse the drum out with hot water several times after each use. Processing has always been totally even. When starting off, easy to load 2 sheets of film into one of the film "slots"... happened once the first time I used the drum to process 5 sheets of film, but never again.

#3062 for processing up to 2 sheets of 11x14 film. In my JOBO literature, JOBO spec'd the 3062 as a "print drum" but in its literature also lists the 3000 series drums for processing "sheet film and prints". JOBO did make a #3027 for processing 11x14 film but I have never seen one up for sale. For years have used this drum to process 2 sheets of 11x14 film without any problems. Trusted the internal ribs to hold the sheets of film in place, but then last fall had one sheet come loose and "laminate" itself on to the other sheet of film resulting is both sheets being ruined. I do have some JOBO "paper holder clips" that would insure the sheets of film not coming loose but have resisted in using them, fearing that they might cause localized uneven development. Will continue on not using the "paper holder clips" and assume that I mis-loaded one sheet of film that one time... time will tell.

#2830 for processing 2 sheets of 8x10 film. JOBO spec'd out this drum for processing prints (and not film) but I use it for processing film. Have always had repeatable and even processing with this drum. I have never seen the need to use the "paper holder clips" on the internal ribs.

Instead of using a JOBO CPA or CPP, I use a STARK SST4 to rotate my drums. It does have a temp controlled heater bath, but I rarely have the need to use it since the ambient temperature in my darkroom is usually in the high 60s, and I do not process color. Hand filling and emptying the drums I actually prefer to using the JOBO lift. I also have a JOBO TBE-2/12 Tempering Box which I thought I'd be using a lot, but actually rarely use it. I've used staining developers on occasions with the above drums and experienced even development. I have read of people having uneven development problems with additional agitation caused by the internal ribs, but with staining developers. I increased the recommended developer volumes to hopefully negate this problem... no sure if this worked or not, but my development with staining developers has been even so continue on doing this. Occasionally tray process sheet film in the dark, but lately much prefer to let the STARK SST4 processor agitate my film while spend the time reading in the light. Started out with using Cibachrome drums on Unicolor Unirollers. Continuously had problems with the drums coming off the Unirollers. Though still use them for "quick" processing (Rodinal 1:25) of single sheets of film when testing the coverage of a lens.

[Tim V]

Greg: With the Stark processor and the 3005 drum, how do you fill the drum while it's rotating? Is it possible to do that like it is with the Jobo processor and lift unit?

Sorry to derail the thread for bit... But to get it back on track...

I use a CPP3 and 3005 drum to process 5x sheets of 8x10" film at a time. I have done quite a bit of HP5+ with Pyrocat before, and from memory – which is increasingly unreliable these days but I'm positive of this fact... – I used 1L mixed at 2:2:100, 21 deb C., with a time of 10:00mins.

In essence, the times etc. listed by the OP seem very short, especially for the dilution.

[chris_4622]

7.30 vs 7:45 ? And how many 8x10 sheets are you processing, volume/dilution (10.10.500 vs 20.20.1000), and at what temperature. What EI do you meter? Does your process include or exclude fill and dump times. You have to state all your variables to be meaningful.
mpirie - The 2500 tank is for roll film on reels so I assume you are processing 1 roll which is equivalent to 1 8x10 sheet and using < 300ml solution.

I am interested in these things because I am considering a Jobo for my tiny darkroom.

Here is my process.
I use Fp4 6 1/2 x 8 1/2", Whole Plate (I have used Hp5 a few times) exposed at 100.
Pyrocat HD 2:2:100 I mix the chemicals myself. I use 200ml for each sheet of film and I develop either two or four at a time (putting two tanks together). I don't measure exactly the water used for the presoak but it's roughly 200ml for each sheet of film and this is for two minutes. Temperature is 22 - 23 C. I start the timer after I've added half the developer. When finished developing I use a water stop bath for one minute. I never introduce fixer into my Jobo. I take the tank off and the film out and put it into a tray of fixer under the safe light. I then dry the inside of the tank for the next load of film. I use gloves for putting the film in so as not to get fingerprints on the film.

My development time can vary from 6 minutes to 9 minutes depending on SBR...
I work in the darkroom for loading the film only, the rest takes place in a larger area of the basement that is not light tight, just with safe lights.
I hope this helps.
chris

[esearing]

From Sandy's original article.
Sheet film in rotary processor, continuous agitation: use a minimum of 75 ml of the standard working solution per sheet of 4x5 film (or equivalent for larger formats).
Recommended developing times for sheet film in rotary processor are as follows: FP4+ (EI 100) for 8 minutes, BPF-200 (EI 100) for 9 minutes, T-MAX 400 (EI 320) for 12 minutes, and HP5+ (EI 320) for 13 minutes, all at 70º F.

So doing the math 5 sheets 8x10 = 20sheets 4x5 x 75ml = 1.5L @ 1:1:100, so if you halve the dilution you get minimum 15A+15B+750W or 20:20:1000 to be safe.
Sandy's time was 13 minutes at 70º F , but adjusting for dilution I can see where 10mins would be a good starting point.

[Greg]

Greg: With the Stark processor and the 3005 drum, how do you fill the drum while it's rotating? Is it possible to do that like it is with the Jobo processor and lift unit?

Sorry to derail the thread for bit...

I take the drum off the Stark to manually fill and drain it. It's amazing how fast one can manually fill the drum. One trick is to slightly tilt the drum when filling it. I always use a water bath before the developer, and my shortest processing time with conventional developers is 11 minutes. Ran a test sheet and there was no discernible uneven development. If one does not use a pre-developer water bath and if one's development time is less than say 5 minutes, yes there might be some uneven development. For testing lenses and to save time, I have processed those negatives in a low dilution of Rodinal for 5 minutes without the water bath... contact prints from the negatives did not show any uneven development. For processing negatives that I will be scanning I use no water bath and develop in Diafine A & B. I also have increased the developing times in the A and B solutions to 5 minutes each. Again no discernible uneven development. My rule of thumb has always (with the exception of lens test negatives) been to use developers or modify them so as to never have developer times of less than 10 minutes. I once did own and use a slightly modified CPA or CPP (forget which is which). Loved it but its width was over 3 feet and I had to remove it from the sink when processing prints. The STARK's width is only 2 feet, and now I don't have to remove it when processing prints. Plus my vertical Kostiner print washer sits behind the STARK.

Derailing the thread for bit... Well many times I have found this happening and leading to a more interesting thread.

[Tim V]

So doing the math 5 sheets 8x10 = 20sheets 4x5 x 75ml = 1.5L @ 1:1:100, so if you halve the dilution you get minimum 15A+15B+750W or 20:20:1000 to be safe.
Sandy's time was 13 minutes at 70º F , but adjusting for dilution I can see where 10mins would be a good starting point.

2:2:100 at 70F for 10mins, 5x 8x10" sheets in 3005 drum with 38rpm gave me good results. YMMV, and people practicing densitometry may arrive at different times per their metering methods and printing process requirements, but my negs print very well on silver gelatine paper – maybe a little contrasty, but pretty good. At least good enough for me.

[Tim V]

Thanks, Greg.

Are using your SRARK with PMK and / or Pyrocat? My experience with PMK for example with tray processing is even with long presoak, it's very easy to get streaking if film is not completely submerged in developer very quickly. You results are promising as my home space requirements / restrictions are similar to yours. The CPP3 is awesome, but belongs to my place of work.


I take the drum off the Stark to manually fill and drain it. It's amazing how fast one can manually fill the drum. One trick is to slightly tilt the drum when filling it. I always use a water bath before the developer, and my shortest processing time with conventional developers is 11 minutes. Ran a test sheet and there was no discernible uneven development. If one does not use a pre-developer water bath and if one's development time is less than say 5 minutes, yes there might be some uneven development. For testing lenses and to save time, I have processed those negatives in a low dilution of Rodinal for 5 minutes without the water bath... contact prints from the negatives did not show any uneven development. For processing negatives that I will be scanning I use no water bath and develop in Diafine A & B. I also have increased the developing times in the A and B solutions to 5 minutes each. Again no discernible uneven development. My rule of thumb has always (with the exception of lens test negatives) been to use developers or modify them so as to never have developer times of less than 10 minutes. I once did own and use a slightly modified CPA or CPP (forget which is which). Loved it but its width was over 3 feet and I had to remove it from the sink when processing prints. The STARK's width is only 2 feet, and now I don't have to remove it when processing prints. Plus my vertical Kostiner print washer sits behind the STARK.

Derailing the thread for bit... Well many times I have found this happening and leading to a more interesting thread.

[Greg]

Thanks, Greg.

Are using your SRARK with PMK and / or Pyrocat? My experience with PMK for example with tray processing is even with long presoak, it's very easy to get streaking if film is not completely submerged in developer very quickly. You results are promising as my home space requirements / restrictions are similar to yours. The CPP3 is awesome, but belongs to my place of work.

Developed the film with PYROCAT-HD in GLYCOL. Undergoing minor renovations in the darkroom at this time and unfortunately I have temporarily misplaced my darkroom log for 2019, and the development details were recorded in it. But I do remember doing a longer than normal presoak. First time I manually poured the developer into a large JOBO drum took me maybe 20+ seconds and another few seconds to place in on to the SPARK and turn the STARK on. I wasn't tilting the drum which was the main problem. Now-a-days pouring the developer manually into a large tilted JOBO drum takes me all of 4-5 seconds and just another second or so to place it on the already rotating wheels on the SPARK. It most probably doesn't beat using a JOBO CPA or CPP, but it comes very close.

[Tim V]

Thanks, Greg. That’s interesting. I love the Jobo I use at work but really do need my own unit, and the Stark is interesting for its footprint although I’d prefer the CPP3 for convenience.

Has the OP had any success with Pyrocat and HP5 yet?

[jurgenestanislao]

Just passing on my experiences with JOBO drums. I use the following JOBO drums:

#3005 for processing up to 5 sheets of 8x10 and/or whole plate film. Have never had any problems with film scratching. I do rinse the drum out with hot water several times after each use. Processing has always been totally even. When starting off, easy to load 2 sheets of film into one of the film "slots"... happened once the first time I used the drum to process 5 sheets of film, but never again.

#3062 for processing up to 2 sheets of 11x14 film. In my JOBO literature, JOBO spec'd the 3062 as a "print drum" but in its literature also lists the 3000 series drums for processing "sheet film and prints". JOBO did make a #3027 for processing 11x14 film but I have never seen one up for sale. For years have used this drum to process 2 sheets of 11x14 film without any problems. Trusted the internal ribs to hold the sheets of film in place, but then last fall had one sheet come loose and "laminate" itself on to the other sheet of film resulting is both sheets being ruined. I do have some JOBO "paper holder clips" that would insure the sheets of film not coming loose but have resisted in using them, fearing that they might cause localized uneven development. Will continue on not using the "paper holder clips" and assume that I mis-loaded one sheet of film that one time... time will tell.

#2830 for processing 2 sheets of 8x10 film. JOBO spec'd out this drum for processing prints (and not film) but I use it for processing film. Have always had repeatable and even processing with this drum. I have never seen the need to use the "paper holder clips" on the internal ribs.

Instead of using a JOBO CPA or CPP, I use a STARK SST4 to rotate my drums. It does have a temp controlled heater bath, but I rarely have the need to use it since the ambient temperature in my darkroom is usually in the high 60s, and I do not process color. Hand filling and emptying the drums I actually prefer to using the JOBO lift. I also have a JOBO TBE-2/12 Tempering Box which I thought I'd be using a lot, but actually rarely use it. I've used staining developers on occasions with the above drums and experienced even development. I have read of people having uneven development problems with additional agitation caused by the internal ribs, but with staining developers. I increased the recommended developer volumes to hopefully negate this problem... no sure if this worked or not, but my development with staining developers has been even so continue on doing this. Occasionally tray process sheet film in the dark, but lately much prefer to let the STARK SST4 processor agitate my film while spend the time reading in the light. Started out with using Cibachrome drums on Unicolor Unirollers. Continuously had problems with the drums coming off the Unirollers. Though still use them for "quick" processing (Rodinal 1:25) of single sheets of film when testing the coverage of a lens.Hi Greg,

Sorry to hijack the thread, I am using the Stark SST4 as well with the 3005, I was wondering what speed you're using to develop using Pyrocat HD—as I understand negatives need to be developed at the slowest speeds possible with Pyro HD.

On another note, attached a photo and wanted to understand if this is the slowest point on the knob settings. The manual doesn't have diagrams to show how exactly.

Thanks!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200706/3a9faa361800f6c70e297aee6230cb25.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Jim Noel]

The Jobo turns the drum the same distance at all speeds. I run mine as slow as it will go and have no problems.
Remember - It isn't the total quantity of diluted developer, but the quantity of concentrate which is important.

[Greg]

Hi Greg,

Sorry to hijack the thread, I am using the Stark SST4 as well with the 3005, I was wondering what speed you're using to develop using Pyrocat HD—as I understand negatives need to be developed at the slowest speeds possible with Pyro HD.

On another note, attached a photo and wanted to understand if this is the slowest point on the knob settings. The manual doesn't have diagrams to show how exactly.

Thanks!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200706/3a9faa361800f6c70e297aee6230cb25.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

That is the one setting I have used all the time. Seems as that one knob controls the speed by turning it in one direction, and by turning the knob in the other direction, the time between changing the rotation direction increases. Seem a bit odd the way it was designed and or engineered. The manual that came with my STARK was very hard to follow... I think we can both agree on that.
Greg

[jurgenestanislao]

That is the one setting I have used all the time. Seems as that one knob controls the speed by turning it in one direction, and by turning the knob in the other direction, the time between changing the rotation direction increases. Seem a bit odd the way it was designed and or engineered. The manual that came with my STARK was very hard to follow... I think we can both agree on that.
GregOkay, good to know! Would have been better with a resounding click stop to know where things are.

On a side note how much chemistry do you use with the 3005 with one sheet or with 5?

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[jurgenestanislao]

The Jobo turns the drum the same distance at all speeds. I run mine as slow as it will go and have no problems.
Remember - It isn't the total quantity of diluted developer, but the quantity of concentrate which is important.That is correct.

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[Greg]

Okay, good to know! Would have been better with a resounding click stop to know where things are.

On a side note how much chemistry do you use with the 3005 with one sheet or with 5?

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JOBO recommends using between 270-630 ml. I have been consistently using 500 ml no matter if I am running 1 sheet or 5 sheets of 8x10 and/or whole plate and have been getting consistent results for quite some number of years now. Will be starting to use Photographer's Formulary PYROCAT-MC in Glycol. Am about to run some tests at different dilutions. I also process 11x14s in JOBO 3062 drums using 600 ml of developer. To keep things simple when mixing up the dilutions, I plan on using somewhere between 600-700ml in both of the tanks. We will see how it goes....
Greg

[jurgenestanislao]

JOBO recommends using between 270-630 ml. I have been consistently using 500 ml no matter if I am running 1 sheet or 5 sheets of 8x10 and/or whole plate and have been getting consistent results for quite some number of years now. Will be starting to use Photographer's Formulary PYROCAT-MC in Glycol. Am about to run some tests at different dilutions. I also process 11x14s in JOBO 3062 drums using 600 ml of developer. To keep things simple when mixing up the dilutions, I plan on using somewhere between 600-700ml in both of the tanks. We will see how it goes....
GregGoodluck!

I've yet to see successful negs on the slowest speed with my Stark at 1+1+100 Pyro HD.

Do the edges of your neg come out really clear or a bit fogged?

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