Archival Rating of The New Gen 5 Ilford RC Multigrade Deluxe Papers?

[LFLarry]

Does anyone know of an official statement from Ilford about the archival rating of a properly processed and selenium toned print using the new generation 5 Multigrade RC Deluxe papers?

If not, any other credible source that has published any findings?

I ask becuase I sell both RC and Fiber prints and educated buyers ask about the archival ratings of RC vs. Fiber. I find all of this interesting because I have an RC print that I made in 1975 of my grandparents that has hung on my wall in a simple frame and 45 years later, it still looks as good as the day I made it. None the less, I like to have credible information to pass along to buyers and I want to make sure I am accurate it my discussions.

Thanks

[Oren Grad]

There is no "archival rating", official or otherwise.

If you would like to understand what is known about the permanence of RC papers, read chapter 12 in Ctein's Post Exposure book. He has kindly posted the entire book for free download, available here:

http://ctein.com/booksmpl.htm

[LFLarry]

Thank you very much for this resource and link. I will review.



There is no "archival rating", official or otherwise.

If you would like to understand what is known about the permanence of RC papers, read chapter 12 in Ctein's Post Exposure book. He has kindly posted the entire book for free download, available here:

http://ctein.com/booksmpl.htm

[LFLarry]

I just read chapter 12 and also chapter 10. This is very enlightening, to say the least.

It appears the best answer for achieving better permanence with RC paper is to do a light selenium tone and treat with the latest formula of Sistan as the very last step. (link provided below for the new Siatan) - https://www.freestylephoto.biz/65140-Adolux-Adostab-II-Sistan-Image-Stabilizer-With-Wetting-Agent-500ml

It would be nice if the Image Permanence Institute or Wilhelm would do some testing on the above mentioned on the brand new generation 5 emulsion from Ilford's RC Multigrade Deluxe papers. For now, this seems to be the best solution we have when we want to print on RC paper.







There is no "archival rating", official or otherwise.

If you would like to understand what is known about the permanence of RC papers, read chapter 12 in Ctein's Post Exposure book. He has kindly posted the entire book for free download, available here:

http://ctein.com/booksmpl.htm

[Peter De Smidt]

Aardenburg is a great resource, but I don't know if they've checked that paper.

[LFLarry]

Thanks, Peter. Do you happen to know the link to Aardenburg?

I would like to understand this RC permanence issue better in the context of the new Ilford RC emulsion because I am finding the tonality of the paper to be more to my liking than the classic fiber paper.



Aardenburg is a great resource, but I don't know if they've checked that paper.

[Peter De Smidt]

https://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/

[Oren Grad]

Aardenburg has been testing inkjet papers only.

EDIT: OK, that's wrong - some years back he ran a handful of samples of both Fuji Crystal Archive exposed in a Frontier 390, and Ilford Galerie Digital RC and FB silver papers exposed in a Durst Theta 51. More about this below.

[Oren Grad]

Larry, keep in mind that we don't really know what to say about the permanence of current FB papers either. AFAIK there is no information available to the public about the characteristics of the paper base used by the remaining manufacturers of silver-gelatin paper. We cannot assume that it is the same as paper base from decades ago, to which people refer in arguing that FB papers have been shown to have great longevity. We do know that current FB papers are generally loaded with brighteners (RC papers too!), which will deteriorate over time. That won't affect the physical integrity of the base, but it will affect the appearance of the print, especially if your printing habits are tuned precisely to the perceived brilliance of the paper as it comes out of the box.

In my view it's not appropriate to make sweeping claims about very-long-term permanence of any silver prints. If one is selling prints, best to acknowledge the uncertainties and also include information about the role of storage and display conditions in maximizing the life of prints.

If one is determined to sell photographic works on paper that have the maximum possible permanence, the most robust medium is probably Pt/Pd prints made on rag-based papers.

I prefer silver prints myself, actually RC for most of my work. So I do the best I can, within reason - I selenium-tone all of my keepers and store them in acid-free boxes under reasonable environmental conditions. But I don't have a climate-controlled vault, and I'm under no illusion that I am making prints that are somehow guaranteed to last many tens or hundreds of years. I would never be comfortable claiming such.

[Oren Grad]

FWIW, Aardenburg's accelerated light exposure tests of the handful of Galerie Digital silver paper samples, both RC and FB, show the brighteners "burning out" pretty quickly, RC faster than FB, while the silver image proper remains intact.

I won't replicate his copyrighted material here - you can register on the Aardenburg website to gain free access to the reports, but it would be courteous to also send a donation in whatever amount you're comfortable with to support his testing work.

[LFLarry]

You make some very good points Oren. We have little insight into what manufacturers are using in their emulsions today vs. what was used in the past. That alone is a major point of consideration. In the age of Wilhelm Institute claiming 400+ years of archival permanence of inkjet prints, us old analog guys need to at least be versed on these matters when customers or collectors ask about our silver prints.

After printing 100 sheets of the new Ilford 5th gen Multigrade RC emulsion, I really like the aesthetic/tonal values as compared to my exact prints on their classic fiber paper. This is what has surfaced all these issues for me. In effect, I want to do everything I can to maximize the life of these new RC prints and have credible information to share with my customers.

This has been really helpful and I look forward to any more thoughts and input from the group here.

-Larry



Larry, keep in mind that we don't really know what to say about the permanence of current FB papers either. AFAIK there is no information available to the public about the characteristics of the paper base used by the remaining manufacturers of silver-gelatin paper. We cannot assume that it is the same as paper base from decades ago, to which people refer in arguing that FB papers have been shown to have great longevity. We do know that current FB papers are generally loaded with brighteners (RC papers too!), which will deteriorate over time. That won't affect the physical integrity of the base, but it will affect the appearance of the print, especially if your printing habits are tuned precisely to the perceived brilliance of the paper as it comes out of the box.

In my view it's not appropriate to make sweeping claims about very-long-term permanence of any silver prints. If one is selling prints, best to acknowledge the uncertainties and also include information about the role of storage and display conditions in maximizing the life of prints.

If one is determined to sell photographic works on paper that have the maximum possible permanence, the most robust medium is probably Pt/Pd prints made on rag-based papers.

I prefer silver prints myself, actually RC for most of my work. So I do the best I can, within reason - I selenium-tone all of my keepers and store them in acid-free boxes under reasonable environmental conditions. But I don't have a climate-controlled vault, and I'm under no illusion that I am making prints that are somehow guaranteed to last many tens or hundreds of years. I would never be comfortable claiming such.

[Oren Grad]

Larry - just wanted to add that it's great that you're doing what you can to learn about this so that you can provide the most reliable information to your customers. That should go without saying, but in reality many print sellers don't.

Also, FWIW, one of the reasons Mark McCormick-Goodhart started Aardenburg is that he has some differences of opinion with Wilhelm about testing methodology and about the sorts of claims that are appropriate to make about longevity.

[Bob Salomon]

The only things proved archival are cave paintings.

One can assume with modern techniques but you have no ability to control how the prints will be handled or displayed after sell them.

[LFLarry]

Bob, while all of those things are true, the issue that I am trying to raise in this thread is about providing credible and unbiased information to buyers of silver gelatin prints, whether they be RC or Fiber based.

In a competitive market where digital photographers can press the magic button on their computer and whip out inkjet prints that have sources like Wilhelm Institute saying that injket prints have an archival rating of about 400 years, the topic needs to be discussed and addressed amoungst practitioners that market and sell their prints.

These same types of issue are a part of just about any type of business mode when good are being soldl. There is always competition or a faster way to do something and the sales people need ot be armed with quality information to help educate and inform customers. My goal is to dig out any information that is available from credible third party testers on the permanance of analog silver gelatin prints. After I tackles this, I need to do the same for silver chloride as well.

As previously noted in the above comments and replies, this issue surfaced for me when I started printing on the new 5th generation Ilford Multigrade RC Deluxe paper and I liked my prints better on this paper than on the classic fiber paper. The holy grail would be to understand how the new Ilford RC emulsion performs from an archival perspective when properly processed, toned, and maybe even treated with Sistan.

I am looking forward to additonal sources or tips from the group here so we can hopefully know a little bit more than we did today.


The only things proved archival are cave paintings.

One can assume with modern techniques but you have no ability to control how the prints will be handled or displayed after sell them.

[Bob Salomon]

Bob, while all of those things are true, the issue that I am trying to raise in this thread is about providing credible and unbiased information to buyers of silver gelatin prints, whether they be RC or Fiber based.

In a competitive market where digital photographers can press the magic button on their computer and whip out inkjet prints that have sources like Wilhelm Institute saying that injket prints have an archival rating of about 400 years, the topic needs to be discussed and addressed amoungst practitioners that market and sell their prints.

These same types of issue are a part of just about any type of business mode when good are being soldl. There is always competition or a faster way to do something and the sales people need ot be armed with quality information to help educate and inform customers. My goal is to dig out any information that is available from credible third party testers on the permanance of analog silver gelatin prints. After I tackles this, I need to do the same for silver chloride as well.

As previously noted in the above comments and replies, this issue surfaced for me when I started printing on the new 5th generation Ilford Multigrade RC Deluxe paper and I liked my prints better on this paper than on the classic fiber paper. The holy grail would be to understand how the new Ilford RC emulsion performs from an archival perspective when properly processed, toned, and maybe even treated with Sistan.

I am looking forward to additonal sources or tips from the group here so we can hopefully know a little bit more than we did today.
Why not ask Ilford?

[LFLarry]

I have Bob and as of 32 days and 3 emails, no response as of yet.


Why not ask Ilford?

[Jeroen]

Just a few personal observations, nothing scientific. Nearly every plastic object in my household that's over 30-40 years old is either drying out and developing cracks (hard plastics) or getting sticky (softer or rubbery plastics). Paper doesn't do that - I have magazines and newspapers that are older, and they've been stored in far less favourable conditions (a moisty cellar and an attic where temps reach +100F in summer and -10F in winter), and they're in much better condition. Just my 2 cents :)

[LFLarry]

That is a very practical and valid point. Good observation. While I don't know that I will ever get the answers that I am looking for, I think it probably comes down to the guarantees that I make with my customers regarding the life of their prints. There are so many negative variables that are beyond the photographers control once the print is sold and leaves the studio. People could do all sorts of negative things such as place the print in direct sunlight, expose it to undesirable heat and humidity conditions, etc and then come back and make a claim the print failed. I suppose that is a risk no matter what media is used. It would still be nice to know if this brand new Ilford emulsion has incorporated and addressed any of the long-standing issues/claims associated with RC papers in general. I doubt that I will ever get that answer is my best guess at this point.


Just a few personal observations, nothing scientific. Nearly every plastic object in my household that's over 30-40 years old is either drying out and developing cracks (hard plastics) or getting sticky (softer or rubbery plastics). Paper doesn't do that - I have magazines and newspapers that are older, and they've been stored in far less favourable conditions (a moisty cellar and an attic where temps reach +100F in summer and -10F in winter), and they're in much better condition. Just my 2 cents :)

[Drew Wiley]

"New" and "archival rating" are antonyms. No track record! The same goes for all inkjet media. Extrapolating very brief torture test results might or might not give a realistic clue. It has nothing to do with "paper vs plastics" - there are very durable versions of both, and quite temporary versions too. Lots and lots of variables. If you go back to Wilhelm's classic work on image permanence you can note how he was generally on track about vintage media with a track record of their own, but sometimes way off about newly emerging media. That's unavoidable. If permanence is a priority, stick with something tried and true.

[Luis-F-S]

Sorry, I don't print on plastic!

[Drew Wiley]

I print on plastic quite a bit. Decades of Cibachrome work, with hundreds of them still looking like they mere made yesterday, and now Fujiflex. Those are on extremely stable polyester, just like high-quality sheet film base but thicker. But RC is on paper with a thin semi-permeable outer plastic sandwich. I do all my b&w work on fiber-based paper. I'm not trying to imply anything negative about RC b&w except that it's not suitable for drymounting; but RC will probably never lose it's reputation with collectors or archivists as an unwanted step-child. They too prefer a track record versus so many projected "hundreds of years" of some marketing BS coefficient.

[LFLarry]

Based on the responses and my own research, it appears that is no current and third-party research regarding permanence of RC papers.

In a digital world, I am not surprised.

I did pick up some new knowledge from the group here like the Ctein book which is a gold mine and some other good stuff too. I think all the issues dating back to the beginning of RC paper in the 70s and 80s have long been solved and the real issues with RC are the media and this simply can't get solved. I think I know enough of the answer to help me with my approach for my customers which is what started this research to begin with.

I guess there really isn't anything else to say unless someone knows of a resource that has recently tested RC paper for permanence?

[Bob Salomon]

Based on the responses and my own research, it appears that is no current and third-party research regarding permanence of RC papers.

In a digital world, I am not surprised.

I did pick up some new knowledge from the group here like the Ctein book which is a gold mine and some other good stuff too. I think all the issues dating back to the beginning of RC paper in the 70s and 80s have long been solved and the real issues with RC are the media and this simply can't get solved. I think I know enough of the answer to help me with my approach for my customers which is what started this research to begin with.

I guess there really isn't anything else to say unless someone knows of a resource that has recently tested RC paper for permanence?

RC base paper goes back much further then the 70s. We used it in the AF in the early 60s! And then there was also stabilization papers and processing in the later 60’s but that stuff was far from archival!

[Bob Salomon]

[QUOTE=LFLarry;1533682]Based on the responses and my own research, it appears that is no current and third-party research regarding permanence of RC papers.

In a digital world, I am not surprised.

I did pick up some new knowledge from the group here like the Ctein book which is a gold mine and some other good stuff too. I think all the issues dating back to the beginning of RC paper in the 70s and 80s have long been solved and the real issues with RC are the media and this simply can't get solved. I think I know enough of the answer to help me with my approach for my customers which is what started this research to begin with.

I guess there really isn't anything else to say unless someone knows of a resource that has recently tested RC paper for permanence?[/QUOTE

Careful with Barry Stein (Ctein). He is frequently a Don Quiote giving answers to problems that don’t exist.

[LFLarry]

Okay, while that is interesting, it still doesn't address the core question about any current third party testing of RC paper permanence.

We've all heard the horror stories about RC from whenever (50s/60s/70s/80s, etc), but the only individual testing that I could find was from Ctein. The anecdotal stories of "my RC pints still look like new from the 70s are great, but once again, none of this addresses the original question asked.

I have to assume at this point there is no current testing being performed by a worthy and credible resource, which is fine.



RC base paper goes back much further then the 70s. We used it in the AF in the early 60s! And then there was also stabilization papers and processing in the later 60’s but that stuff was far from archival!

[cowanw]

Don Quixote has gone to great lengths to add the x to his name and to have his previous name forgotten. I think it is unkind to frustrate that.

[Maris Rusis]

I used to worry about the archival permanence of photographs I made using fibre base and RC base papers. But I don't worry anymore.
I just process and wash the papers according to the best archival practice, do confirmatory residue tests from time to time, store the pictures in a clean acid-free environment, and buy the best conservation framing if needed. That's the limited pact I make with collectors who buy my photographs.
I consider I've done my bit. I can't do any more. What happens next in the mid to distant future is out of my hands.

[Bob Salomon]

Okay, while that is interesting, it still doesn't address the core question about any current third party testing of RC paper permanence.

We've all heard the horror stories about RC from whenever (50s/60s/70s/80s, etc), but the only individual testing that I could find was from Ctein. The anecdotal stories of "my RC pints still look like new from the 70s are great, but once again, none of this addresses the original question asked.

I have to assume at this point there is no current testing being performed by a worthy and credible resource, which is fine.

Can’t say for other papers but I have 30x40 color prints mounted on canvas and laminated with Ademco that go back to the early 70s that have been hung where the sun shines and are yet to fade. They were printed on Kodak RC paper and then the emulsion was stripped off the RC base and then mounted on artist canvas that has a gesso coating. The emulsion was stripped by first applying the Ademco laminate to the print in an Ademco hard platen press, then peeling the emulsion and laminate from the RC base and then using Ademco double coated laminate between the bottom of the stripped print and the canvas and mounting them together in the hard platen press.
Unlike a Seal type press the entire mounting process takes place in the press rather then under weight outside the press.

[Oren Grad]

I have to assume at this point there is no current testing being performed by a worthy and credible resource, which is fine.

To my knowledge, this is correct.

In addition to the discussion so far here and at Photrio, you may find this thread of interest:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?13859-Paper-toning-and-permanence-experimental-data

[Tin Can]

Maris makes good points

My now 22 year old fiber prints hot mounted on high end matboard stored with interleaving flat stacked in archival boxes, look exactly as i remember

Moved 4 times with 5 years of no temp/humidity control in Illinois, cold to hot with high humidity

I also have 1000's of loose family prints stored willy nilly since 1895, most are fine

My Polaroids have faded, slides fine

When I found my 22 year old prints in cold shed storage, I let them warm for 48 hours inside the double storage box

[Drew Wiley]

Instead of quoting Quixote, I'd quote Dickens. B&W RC paper is like an orphan wandering the streets begging for a penny, with nobody listening.

[Tin Can]

I will be trying Ilford RC 5 soon

I doubt I live another 20 years

if I do so be it