Stearman Press SP-810

[bwlf]

I noticed that Freestyle Photographic has the new Stearman Press SP-810 daylight film processing tray.
The feature list is quite impressive, especially the film format flexibility and economy of chemistry w/o considering a Jobo rotary processor.

Simplicity: No holders to fumble with in the dark. Just take the lid off and drop in your film. No seals, O rings or complicated mechanical contraptions.
Economical: It requires only 500 ml of chemistry.
Flexibility: It will handle anything 8x10 (1), 5x7 (2), 4x10 (2), 4x5 (4), and 9x12cm (4)
Proven: Tray processing has been around since the first days of photography.
No Darkroom: Daylight safe tray processes outside a darkroom or dark bag
Fills and drains fast


https://www.freestylephoto.biz/445810-SP-810-8x10-Daylight-Processing-Tray-with-5x7-and-4x5-Dividers

Just curious if anyone else has any experience or thoughts on it, especially compared to other "by hand" processors (alternative to Jobo).

[Alan9940]

I am anxiously awaiting user reviews, especially from folks processing 8x10. I tray processed all my LF film for many years using the shuffle method, but could never get even development when processing a single sheet and tipping the tray. I know many others have processed their film successfully with the “tipping method”, but I just couldn’t make it work for me. That said, I’d be very interested in the SP-810 for pyro development and minimal agitation techniques. I may just buy one and see how it works out.

[Two23]

I got mine a few days ago. It's built really well. I guess I could use it to process the 4x5 sheets I shot yesterday but I'm waiting on getting my 8x10 Kodak 2D. Could shoot some 5x7 today too I guess. It's bigger than th sp-445. I'm thinking I'll keep the 445 since it's small and travels well. The 810 does look simple to use.


Kent in SD

[hporter]

So far, it is exactly what I was hoping it would be. I wanted something that would allow me to quickly process a single sheet of 8x10 film, without having to set up my Jobo or working from trays in the dark.

It is a snap to pull a sheet of 8x10 from a holder and drop it in the tray. Inserting the divider and separator tabs for 4x5 takes only a few seconds.

I have only developed a couple sheets of 8x10 x-ray film, and two 4 sheet batches of Foma 100 4x5 just to try it out. I goofed up the first time I developed the 4x5 sheets. One of the sheets slipped under the separator tabs and glued itself to the sheet in the adjoining section. Here is what I saw after fixing the film and popping the tray top.

199288

I think it was a case of my not being mindful of how I grasped the tray while dumping the contents out. The second time, I was more careful about grasping it in the exact middle, and perhaps being a bit more gentle when dumping the liquid from the tray. No problems on the second try with 4x5 sheets.

I normally use the Stearman Press SP-445 to develop 4x5 sheets when I don't want to set the Jobo up. While I have enjoyed the SP-445 and like it very much, I will probably use this tray instead in the future. In the dark, it is much easier and much quicker for me to pull the sheets from my holders and lay them in the tray rather than trying to pull them and then slide them into the SP-445 holders. The SP-445 is not difficult, the tray is just easier.

And the opening of the tray is very easy and quick to pour in 500ml of solution into without making a mess. It is also easy to tip it and dump it out. I have a small workbench in the middle of my hobby room that I use. I just set an inexpensive dishpan to the side to dump the tray into, and place my graduates of chemicals on the other side and it couldn't be simpler to setup and use.

199289

Just like the SP-445, it is easy to pull the light baffles out and clean the tank when you are done with it. The baffles are molded with the text of which position they are intended to be placed back into, which is also helpful. Another positive point is that it has little feet molded on the bottom that make it very easy to rock the tray back and forth.

I haven't tried the J Lane dry plates yet and I am hoping I can process the dry plates in this tray. I know that special dry plate holders are available for the SP-445 tank, but perhaps I won't need them now?

[Fred L]

are those bench holes for dogs ?

[Kodak]

I received mine just before New Year’s Day.
Processed some 5x7 sheets in it. It works really good.
You can pour the liquid in and out very fast.
Feels sturdy.
So far I’m happy with it.

[Nodda Duma]

If you want to see results of developing 8x10, the color photos I last posted in the media section were developed in the SP-810 initial production tank that I tested for them. That include Ektar, Adox CHS II (black and white of course), and Aerochrome. Worked great.

[Roger Thoms]

If you want to see results of developing 8x10, the color photos I last posted in the media section were developed in the SP-810 initial production tank that I tested for them. That include Ektar, Adox CHS II (black and white of course), and Aerochrome. Worked great.

Can't find them, any chance you could post a link?

Roger

[hporter]

are those bench holes for dogs ?

No, that bench has had a half a dozen different reloading presses and cast bullet lubri-sizers mounted to it over the years. After I bought a larger bench for my presses, I moved this one to the center of the room to use as a work bench. I have been meaning to cover it with a sheet of stainless steel, but haven't got to it yet.

[ericantonio]

I really want one. I think my 445 from them is the best thing I've ever used for 4x5 development (for my needs that is, I know there are a lot of Jobo fans especially with color). I don't do TONS of 8x10 and would love to be able to do it in daylight and not wait for nighttime to do it in my bathroom with all the lights out outside the bathroom.

I emailed them and I said "but darn, I would need a huge changing tent do this in daylight hours" and he sent me a link he did for a DIY cardboard changing box. I do love it but I think I'll spring for a large one. I really only do like 2 and at MOST 4 sheets. But typically I'll just do 1 holder of 8x10.

[Russ Fill]

If you want to see results of developing 8x10, the color photos I last posted in the media section were developed in the SP-810 initial production tank that I tested for them. That include Ektar, Adox CHS II (black and white of course), and Aerochrome. Worked great.

How did you matin temp during the process. Did you set the tray in some warm water or did it hold the temp enough to get through the processing times?

I just used the SP-810 and was so impressed. Its always a pain to try to develop my 4x10's and this worked perfectly. Well almost. I forgot to remove the little holder/spacers for 4x5 5x7 from the lid and managed to rub a couple holes in my first batch of negs. But I removed the holders and the rest of the negs turned out perfectly.

[tim48v]

Forget the water bath and other heresy: https://shop.stearmanpress.com/blogs/news/thermal-profile-of-the-sp-8x10
199962

[Russ Fill]

Forget the water bath and other heresy: https://shop.stearmanpress.com/blogs/news/thermal-profile-of-the-sp-8x10
199962

Thank you so much for this info I knew there was a reason I bought the SP-810.
I have always gone off trying to keep an average as keeping an absolute is almost impossible but to have the comfort knowing that there is very little temp change over 10 mins is great to know. Ill develop with crazed comfort now knowing not to worry so much about the loss of temp.:cool:

[tim48v]

Russ,
The real "secret" is consistency! Keep a detailed notebook and once you've figured out what works, keep doing it.


Tim

[Kodak]

If you want to keep the temp stable you can also use a “tray heater” not sure if this is the correct word.
The ones you use to keep the temp for your developer tray for your paper stable.

[tim48v]

Hans,
We actually looked into designing a heater but decided it wasn't needed. Or more accurately, wouldn't be needed by enough people to justify it.

There are also technical issues. For example, where would you put it? There really isn't room inside the tray and if you put it in the fill/drain port, we were concerned about uneven heating due to liquid flowing through the baffles.

The best solution we could come up with was a silicone pad (like those used on engine oil pans) that could be glued to the bottom and provide even distribution of the heat. But there's another issue: heaters need time to stabilize (even with a high performance PID controller). Unlike print making in a darkroom, the tray isn't left filled but is emptied and refilled often. Now if you're filling the tray with liquid near the desired set point, maybe you'd get away with it...

In the end, we concluded it just wasn't needed.

We're still considering building our own Temperature Compensated Timer. The concept has been around for years and is well proven. Again, the question is: is it really needed?

Tim

[Nodda Duma]

Can't find them, any chance you could post a link?

Roger

Hey Roger,

The CHS 100 II sheets I developed were of a local family ... friends that I took pictures of for Christmas Cards so I didn't post those publicly (they ended up picking the dry plate shot for their card, I'm happy to say).

However, here's a link to a Provia 8x10 sheet: https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/bridge-on-pemigewasset.61291/

And an 8x10 Aerochrome sheet: https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/aerochrome-the-barn-should-be-red.61268/

Finally, a 4x5 Ektar sheet .. pardon the dust: https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/ektar-oahu-mountains.60960/

All developed in the SP-810 tank.

[Nodda Duma]

How did you matin temp during the process. Did you set the tray in some warm water or did it hold the temp enough to get through the processing times?

I just used the SP-810 and was so impressed. Its always a pain to try to develop my 4x10's and this worked perfectly. Well almost. I forgot to remove the little holder/spacers for 4x5 5x7 from the lid and managed to rub a couple holes in my first batch of negs. But I removed the holders and the rest of the negs turned out perfectly.

As Tim mentions after your post, it became quickly obvious that the tank keeps the temperatures consistent enough for good results (I develop at 40C) ... and of course the proof is in the pudding.
If I wanted to be anal, I have a 1" thick sheet of insulating styrofoam that I could put under the tank to block the main source of heat loss (through the bottom), but I'm pretty happy with the results.

Cheers,
Jason

[Roger Thoms]

Hey Roger,

The CHS 100 II sheets I developed were of a local family ... friends that I took pictures of for Christmas Cards so I didn't post those publicly (they ended up picking the dry plate shot for their card, I'm happy to say).

However, here's a link to a Provia 8x10 sheet: https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/bridge-on-pemigewasset.61291/

And an 8x10 Aerochrome sheet: https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/aerochrome-the-barn-should-be-red.61268/

Finally, a 4x5 Ektar sheet .. pardon the dust: https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/ektar-oahu-mountains.60960/

All developed in the SP-810 tank.

Thanks, no wonder I couldn’t find them, I was looking in the image sharing area here on LFPF. Should have thought to look over on Photrio, since your active there too.

The images look good, the color infrared is especially cool.

Roger

[Russ Fill]

As Tim mentions after your post, it became quickly obvious that the tank keeps the temperatures consistent enough for good results (I develop at 40C) ... and of course the proof is in the pudding.
If I wanted to be anal, I have a 1" thick sheet of insulating styrofoam that I could put under the tank to block the main source of heat loss (through the bottom), but I'm pretty happy with the results.

Cheers,
Jason

I was actually thinking that if I wanted to I could put one of those reptile pads you put under an aquarium with a reptile in, under the tank just to keep the temp a little more stable but it would take some time to figure out just how much insulation between the reptile pad and the bottom of the tank to keep the temp I wanted..
All this though is if Im going for perfect temp but I feel that the averaging of the temp through the development will be more than adequate for my results.
Thank you all for the info. I have a new level of understanding which is what its all about right?

[howlingsun]

Did my first E6 8x10 sheet today in the SP-8x10. Came out perfekt, no defects, streaks or anything like that.
Quality of the tank is very high and its very easy to use.

200382

Here is the process I used:
- Fold the film sheet like a taco for 10s while loading the tray to create a small bend in the film, allowing faster wetting of the film. https://youtu.be/0WdzqOWl4h8?t=185
- Heat chemicals to 40°C
- Pre-soak with 40°C water for 1min
- Agitation 1min initially, then 10s (lift 5 times) every 30s
- Agitation method was to lift the tray slightly in the front, causing a gentle wave lengthwise.

200383

Best regards
Klas

[younghoon Kil]

Congratulations!
Excuse me. Can you please tell me what Taco means?

[howlingsun]

Congratulations!
Excuse me. Can you please tell me what Taco means?

To create some small curve to the film to help the fluid go underneath. I updated the post above with some details.

[younghoon Kil]

Thank you for a detailed description. ;-)

[DaveF]

Quick note to say that I've just bought two of these for 8x10, and did my first two sheets last night (using Pyrocat HD). Really great for small spaces - a big advantage over using BTZS tubes, since no need for other large trays and/or a darkroom for the later stages after stop. Also don't need to keep going in and out of changing tent to change caps. Slightly quicker overall developing times than tubes even with non-constant agitation, since the fix and wash steps don't need to be so long, as the scallops in the base of the tray allow for chemistry to cover both sides of the film. The lid is a loose fit, which was a bit unnerving at first, but no problem in the end.

Only disadvantage compared with tubes that I can see so far is that they're more fiddly to dry (lots of narrow internal grooves/channels), meaning that it's a bit more difficult to do multiple sheets of 8x10 in a single session. Anyone got any good tips for quick and easy drying beyond use of kitchen towel? Perhaps Q-tips/cotton buds; possibly also a hairdryer on low heat setting to blow the recalicitrant drops of water out. Thoughts?

[CreationBear]

Quick note to say that I've just bought two of these for 8x10

Excellent, I just caught your last photos in my Flickr feed and was hoping you would provide a review.:) (FWIW, I'm just starting to use a repurposed Paterson Orbital for 5x7...good to know there's a Plan B out there if it doesn't work out.)

[Exploring Large Format]

Quick note to say that I've just bought two of these for 8x10, and did my first two sheets last night (using Pyrocat HD). Really great for small spaces - a big advantage over using BTZS tubes, since no need for other large trays and/or a darkroom for the later stages after stop. Also don't need to keep going in and out of changing tent to change caps. Slightly quicker overall developing times than tubes even with non-constant agitation, since the fix and wash steps don't need to be so long, as the scallops in the base of the tray allow for chemistry to cover both sides of the film. The lid is a loose fit, which was a bit unnerving at first, but no problem in the end.

Only disadvantage compared with tubes that I can see so far is that they're more fiddly to dry (lots of narrow internal grooves/channels), meaning that it's a bit more difficult to do multiple sheets of 8x10 in a single session. Anyone got any good tips for quick and easy drying beyond use of kitchen towel? Perhaps Q-tips/cotton buds; possibly also a hairdryer on low heat setting to blow the recalicitrant drops of water out. Thoughts?Just watched a new Stearman video last night where Tim makes the point that unlike with the SP-445, you don't have to fully dry out the 8x10 tank. Thanks for the review. Here's his link:

https://youtu.be/1fTZmuVrVwk

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[DaveF]

Just watched a new Stearman video last night where Tim makes the point that unlike with the SP-445, you don't have to fully dry out the 8x10 tank. Thanks for the review. Here's his link:

https://youtu.be/1fTZmuVrVwk

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Thanks for this: very helpful. Seem to have missed that video.

Re. not drying the tanks fully, am I to assume that that's to do with the fact that you need to do a pre-soak with these? I've always been diligent to completely dry all my tanks etc. - a habit from when I almost exclusively used E6 5x4 on my Jobo, without a presoak - here the tanks would definitely need to be completely dry to ensure no uneven spread of first dev. A combination of getting into b&w and 8x10 more, and a motor fault on my Jobo, means that I mainly process 8x10 now, with Pyrocat HD and FP4+ (where a 5-minute presoak is a good idea anyway).

The detail about the final wash is also very helpful - and time-saving. For my first attempts I took the film out and washed it separately for 15 minutes. Leaving it in the tray and rinsing it 7 times over about 10 mins, as per the instructions, is quicker still (I imagined that something like this ought to be possible) - though I guess I want to have a look at the neg sooner rather than later!!

[DaveF]

Thanks for this - I too had been considering the Patersons, but I thought I'd go with these, rather than having to find a couple of Patersons on ebay and then figure out what modifications to make. The Stearman trays work really well, are compact, and you can pop them back in their slim cardboard boxes when you've finished, to keep the dust away. As with my BTZS tubes, I'm getting into the habit of writing a note of the sheet number/subject, dev time, and N+/- on a piece of masking tape to stick to the lid during the process.
I reckon that by using these I've cut down the surface space I need to do the processing by about 3/4. The only other things you need are a bunch of different plastic jugs with the different chemicals preloaded.

And here are those first two images processed. I can confirm from spotting at 300% that there were virtually no scratches, minimal amounts of dust, and just a few hairs to get rid of.

I got my trays in the UK from Silverprint, but I think a few other dealers may stock them too.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49541664613_05578ca746_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49542507026_03f15d3e7c_h.jpg

Magpie Mine, Derbyshire Peak District; Chamonix 810V, Nikkor-M 450 and Nikkor-SW 150, FP4+

[Alan9940]

Got my SP-8x10 in the mail, yesterday, and processed an 8x10 sheet of B&W film. Per my post #2, I was concerned about even development as I've never had great success with any form of tray development; though the shuffle method came the closest to even development for me. Anyway, the most severe test I know of to determine if your development method is resulting in even development is to expose a sheet of film of an evenly lit card placed on Zone VI. Any minute difference in density in the developed film is easily seen on a lightbox. I used Tim's "panning" method of agitation and I'm happy to report that I got absolutely even development across the entire sheet of film! As a matter of fact, I'd go as far to say that it's the equal to results from my Jobo Expert drums! The SP-8x10 will be such a nice alternative when I have only a few sheets to process and don't feel like setting up the Jobo.

Thanks, Tim, for such a wonderful product!

[dodphotography]

my one gripe... I don't like the cover. I wish it snapped into place, coming to this tank as a Patteron Orbital user. I like that secure "snap" in the Oribital that gives me peace of mind.

With all that said, it works. Trying to figure out how to best agitate this tank.

[Two23]

my one gripe... I don't like the cover. I wish it snapped into place, coming to this tank as a Patteron Orbital user. I like that secure "snap" in the Oribital that gives me peace of mind.

With all that said, it works. Trying to figure out how to best agitate this tank.

There's a YouTube video. I rock mine side to side, then for next round I rock it front to back.


Kent in SD

[Kiwi7475]

my one gripe... I don't like the cover. I wish it snapped into place, coming to this tank as a Patteron Orbital user. I like that secure "snap" in the Oribital that gives me peace of mind.

With all that said, it works. Trying to figure out how to best agitate this tank.

I don’t think the exact agitation method matters much. I tried side to side, front to back, circular motion... it all came out fine. This thing is rock solid in delivering excellent results consistently.

[Two23]

Last year SP was trying to decide if the SP810 would be successful and sell enough to be worth doing. They took the chance on it anyway. I have to say it has easily exceeded all my expectations.


Kent in SD

[Russ Fill]

Here is something I do to make me feel a little safer like I won't accidentally pull the lid off.
I use a slightly large rubber band. works like a charm and I don't feel like Ill make some crazy move and be looking at my film in the tank.
Also on agitation, Its important to know that over agitation can be just as bad as under. In that with my first batch in the tank I forgot to remove one set of dividers and ended up with a couple contact points in my 4x10 sheets. My bad but from that I learned that if you simply lift or push the tank on the little balancing points on the bottom of the tank so it just slightly lifts each end its enough.
Id image that if you rocked it back and forth a bunch or too much you could start to see wear from slight contact areas in the tank but using it normally with just the usual 10 or so seconds ever 30 or 1 min what ever is perfect and won't cause any issues.
Its such a great design that Im now doing all my 4x5 in it as well.

[dodphotography]

I’m being greedy... I’d love to see them make an 11x14 model!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alan9940]

I have found, too, that if one agitates too vigorously chemistry will spill out from under the lid edge. Slow, smooth, and steady agitation works best for me.

[Russ Fill]

Here is what I did one day is just took the amount of chemistry that I would normally use only I just used water and left the lid off and filled it up with the water and had an old test neg I threw in there to see how it behaves and took it for a spin. I tilted it the way I would normally as if I was doing a process and then I shook it and tilted it and slowly rocked it and over a few min you get the feeling of what is working and how much is too much and how much is not enough.
Its actually pretty amazing how the film doesn't stick and that the little supports or pilars in the tank actually allow the chemistry to move a lot more than you would think. Simply amazing. The textured lining of the tank to keep the film from sticking is so cool. Nice work guys really a success story on this product.

[dodphotography]

Quick question and slightly off topic... how does this tank do with Pyro and if you used pyro would you be able to swap between a staining and non-staining developer? I'm just wondering about the plastic absorbing certain types of chemistry, just a simple (and probably stupid) question.

[Kiwi7475]

Quick question and slightly off topic... how does this tank do with Pyro and if you used pyro would you be able to swap between a staining and non-staining developer? I'm just wondering about the plastic absorbing certain types of chemistry, just a simple (and probably stupid) question.

I have used PMK and Rodinal on successive developments a few times already, with no issue that I can see. I wash it well after I’m done, with some hot water, and then let it dry. The only thing is I use a separate tray for photoflo, not the SP-8x10.

[Alan9940]

Quick question and slightly off topic... how does this tank do with Pyro and if you used pyro would you be able to swap between a staining and non-staining developer? I'm just wondering about the plastic absorbing certain types of chemistry, just a simple (and probably stupid) question.

I haven't used pyro in my SP-8x10, yet, but I have used it--along with other "normal" developers--in many other plastic tanks; never had an issue. My main concern with using it in this tank would be increased aerial oxidation due to the amount of chemistry hitting open air on the fill side. I'm guessing that something like Pyrocat-HD would fair better in this regard then, say, PMK.

[Two23]

For Photoflo I might be doing something different from everyone else. After doing the final washing with tap water I drain off well. I then spread x3 drops of Photoflo on the negative and pour on about an inch or so of distilled water. I rock the tray a bit, let it sit a couple of minutes, then swish it around a bit more before draining. My negs are clean and I have no residue build up. Doesn't seem to take much Photoflo to get the benefit.


Kent in SD

[Kiwi7475]

For Photoflo I might be doing something different from everyone else. After doing the final washing with tap water I drain off well. I then spread x3 drops of Photoflo on the negative and pour on about an inch or so of distilled water. I rock the tray a bit, let it sit a couple of minutes, then swish it around a bit more before draining. My negs are clean and I have no residue build up. Doesn't seem to take much Photoflo to get the benefit.


Kent in SD

Yes, very little is needed. Photoflo is recommended as 1 to 200. For 500ml with the SP, that’s about 2.5 ml. I keep it mixed in a bottle that has probably gone through 100 developments and it’s still working fine. It may take a lifetime to go through a full bottle.... :-)

[dodphotography]

I apply photoflo in a separate tray.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[C. D. Keth]

I apply photoflo in a separate tray.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Being a surfactant, applying the photoflo in the same tray as development might help avoid or delay any stain build up like you were worried about. Either way, a sponge out every X development cycles should take care of stain build up if it tends to happen. It shouldn't penetrate the plastic, just be a surface thing.

[Jannto]

Does anybody know non-UK sellers in Europe? I have found several in the UK but none in Spain, Germany etc... Best, Janne

[tim48v]

Janne,
Fotoimpex.de should have it in stock.

Tim

[Rayt]

Mine arrived yesterday from Freestyle and today I used it twice for 5x7. I have been using the Paterson Orbital and comparing the two the obvious advantage of the Stearman is you can buy it new. Otherwise I will use one while the other is drying out. I do wish the cover for the Stearman has a mechanism so it can snap in place. I was extremely careful with the cover to the point of high anxiety. Also it is quite large compared to the Orbital but that’s a non-issue.

I showed my wife the cover and said I need something to hold it shut so she made me two elastic bands that fit perfectly. Problem solved!

[CreationBear]

Mine arrived yesterday from Freestyle and today I used it twice for 5x7. I have been using the Paterson Orbital and comparing the two the obvious advantage of the Stearman is you can buy it new.

Excellent, I'd be very interested in your approach to using both with 5x7--I picked up an Orbital a few months before the Stearman became available for 5x7. FWIW, I'm using 400ml of solution with the Orbital in a water bath--definitely had a few problems using two 5x7's in relatively weak Pyrocat HD...hopefully I can see if having just one sheet produces a more robust negative.:)

[jurgenestanislao]

Quick note to say that I've just bought two of these for 8x10, and did my first two sheets last night (using Pyrocat HD). Really great for small spaces - a big advantage over using BTZS tubes, since no need for other large trays and/or a darkroom for the later stages after stop. Also don't need to keep going in and out of changing tent to change caps. Slightly quicker overall developing times than tubes even with non-constant agitation, since the fix and wash steps don't need to be so long, as the scallops in the base of the tray allow for chemistry to cover both sides of the film. The lid is a loose fit, which was a bit unnerving at first, but no problem in the end.

Only disadvantage compared with tubes that I can see so far is that they're more fiddly to dry (lots of narrow internal grooves/channels), meaning that it's a bit more difficult to do multiple sheets of 8x10 in a single session. Anyone got any good tips for quick and easy drying beyond use of kitchen towel? Perhaps Q-tips/cotton buds; possibly also a hairdryer on low heat setting to blow the recalicitrant drops of water out. Thoughts?

Hi Dave,

New here in the forum and what lead me here was my search for reviews regarding the SP-810 with Pyrocat HD. Just wanted to ask you some questions as I'm planning to purchase the SP-810 to have more control with my agitation–my motorised rotary processor seems to be turning my JOBO tank too fast resulting in negatives that are too dense.

1. What Pyrocat HD dilution are you using with the SP-810?
2. What is your effective development time?
3. What agitation technique have you been using?

I'm asking the questions above as it will be my first time doing tray development for sheet film and that I've been reading a lot about extreme minimal agitation/stand/semi-stand development from Sandy King and Steve Shermaz-but not sure if their methods work well with trays, more so the SP-810.

Looking forward to hear form you–great captures on Flickr by the way.

[DaveF]

Thanks for this: and for the kind comments.
In order:
1. 2:2:100
2. Anything from something like 12 mins to about 18 depending on temperature and what I want to do with the neg (shorter times for scanning only; longer for alt pro attempts, now and/or in the future).
3. As indicated in the instructions, I think: “panning for gold” for 10 seconds every minute.

I am, let it be said, still very much a novice when it comes to home-developing black and white film. What I do know is that FP4+ is incredibly forgiving but also allows for supreme control once your expertise is pitched up a notch or two.

The only drawback I have with the SP810 over using BTZS tubes is that they take more chemistry. In all else it is a superior system I've found. My tubes are currently gathering dust on a shelf.

[CreationBear]

1. 2:2:100


You've got to be ecstatic over those clematis finger stamens, no?

At any rate, I'm really looking forward to your experiments across the "output spectrum" with this relatively burly Pyrocat solution--just having the one time variable would make things so much simpler.

[DaveF]

Thanks!
Re. times, just mostly a question of what temperature I'm going with, and whether I want to push the time out for e.g. Argyrotype (and of course the question of standard zone-stystem expansions or contractions - though I have to say that given that the majority of my negs go through the scanner and into photoshop.)


You've got to be ecstatic over those clematis finger stamens, no?

At any rate, I'm really looking forward to your experiments across the "output spectrum" with this relatively burly Pyrocat solution--just having the one time variable would make things so much simpler.

[jurgenestanislao]

Is there by any chance an 11x14 is in the works?

[jurgenestanislao]

Mind sharing a link?

[David Suchoff]

I hope this isn't too off topic, but does anyone have experience using a water bath shaker like this:
https://www.fishersci.com/shop/products/isotemp-shaking-water-baths/p-6448021

I feel like, assuming it can fit the SP-810, it could be a great way to get accurate, repeatable processing.
There are many shakers available on the used market, especially if you live anywhere near research facilities.

[Two23]

Is there by any chance an 11x14 is in the works?


I would doubt it. They debated for a long time to make the 8x10 version. Even fewer people are into 11x14. The two strengths of the SP-810 are it's simplicity and that it can process seveal different film sizes.


Kent in SD

[Alan9940]

I feel like, assuming it can fit the SP-810, it could be a great way to get accurate, repeatable processing.

According to tests Tim has run, the temperature inside the SP-8x10 doesn't fluctuate all that much so no need to worry. Dunno. Haven't tested that theory for myself.

[tim48v]

Here's the thermal data: https://shop.stearmanpress.com/blogs/news/thermal-profile-of-the-sp-8x10

[tim48v]

Yes, we have looked at a 11x14. Right now it doesn't look feasible (unless some wants write a really big check); the market isn't big enough.
We are considering other options: for example, someone wants us to cut up two SP-8x10s and glue them together to make an SP-8x20...

[Roger Thoms]

Yes, we have looked at a 11x14. Right now it doesn't look feasible (unless some wants write a really big check); the market isn't big enough.
We are considering other options: for example, someone wants us to cut up two SP-8x10s and glue them together to make an SP-8x20...

That was my thought but for 7x17. I normally use BTZS tubes, but don't have them for 7x17. I don't have a darkroom, I use a dark closet and my kitchen. Keep us posted if you if you decide to do something crazy like gluing two SP-810's together.

Roger

[dodphotography]

Yes, we have looked at a 11x14. Right now it doesn't look feasible (unless some wants write a really big check); the market isn't big enough.
We are considering other options: for example, someone wants us to cut up two SP-8x10s and glue them together to make an SP-8x20...

Totally get it... an 1114 option might help people on the fence hop into a new format . As trivial as it sounds developing is one issue for me in ulf


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[esearing]

Yes, we have looked at a 11x14. Right now it doesn't look feasible (unless some wants write a really big check); the market isn't big enough.
We are considering other options: for example, someone wants us to cut up two SP-8x10s and glue them together to make an SP-8x20...

Is it possible to make a pressure fitted tube cap with light traps that would fit various standard plumbing ABS in 3" or 4" diameters. The user could cut to any desired length. I assume a modular tube system would probably leak if threaded together. I used to have a metal 3 reel system with this type of rubberized fitted cap.

[Alan9940]

Is it possible to make a pressure fitted tube cap with light traps that would fit various standard plumbing ABS in 3" or 4" diameters. The user could cut to any desired length. I assume a modular tube system would probably leak if threaded together. I used to have a metal 3 reel system with this type of rubberized fitted cap.

Not quite sure what you're trying to do, but have you looked at Mechanical Test plugs? I use them on homemade tanks I built which allows me to roll 3" tube during agitation cycles.

[jurgenestanislao]

Has anybody experienced these types of imprints on their negatives with the SP810?

Look at these stretch mark-like and worm-like patterns in the attached photos.

I've ruled out temperature shift reticulation as I did two tests already with consistent temperature.

Developed using Pyrocat-HD 1:1:200, 60min semi stand development.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200509/a3b9401a76232ca7b32da0b44be9e60f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200509/52c3743dc31489e6d69fb83b0e9d3598.jpg

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[Two23]

Not me.


Kent in SD

[tim48v]

jurgen,
Did you get our email with questions?
You're doing semi-stand development with limited agitation; are you agitating for the first 30 seconds to make sure the film breaks free from the bottom of the tray?

Tim

[jurgenestanislao]

jurgen,
Did you get our email with questions?
You're doing semi-stand development with limited agitation; are you agitating for the first 30 seconds to make sure the film breaks free from the bottom of the tray?

TimHi Tim,

Got your email. I was agitating for the first minute and then for another minute during the halfway mark. Total dev time is 60 minutes.

What I did differently I guess was I used 400ml of liquid.

Jurgen

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[tim48v]

Jurgen,
Per your email, the issue is on the emulsion side and you processed emulsion side up. So it must be related to the chemistry, after all, at that point it's just a tray. Don't know how that dilution would behave; you might need more than 400ml.

Tim

[Lloyd709]

Should I buy an SP-810 for £180 for a 'an new' Paterson Orbital for £100 to develop whole plate film? I'm surprised I can't find a comparison of these two anywhere!

[Michael Kadillak]

Has anybody experienced these types of imprints on their negatives with the SP810?

Look at these stretch mark-like and worm-like patterns in the attached photos.

I've ruled out temperature shift reticulation as I did two tests already with consistent temperature.

Developed using Pyrocat-HD 1:1:200, 60min semi stand development.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200509/a3b9401a76232ca7b32da0b44be9e60f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200509/52c3743dc31489e6d69fb83b0e9d3598.jpg

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In order to properly execute sheet film stand or semi stand development you must use have the film in the proper sized tube and the film must be standing vertically to properly accomplish the development objective. Trays using this technique have been proven to introduce any number of unacceptable artifacts and are not the correct tool for the stated objective.

[Pere Casals]

What I did differently I guess was I used 400ml of liquid.



I usually develop 8x10" HP5+ semi-stand in trays with diluted xtol and I've never had that problem.

Was the film developed with the emulsion side up or down ?

There has been many people developing stand in trays with pyrocat without having problems (https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/stand-development-in-trays-rodinal.46835/#post-680960)

Make tests with fully exposed film strips...

[Michael Kadillak]

I usually develop 8x10" HP5+ semi-stand in trays with diluted xtol and I've never had that problem.

Was the film developed with the emulsion side up or down ?

There has been many people developing stand in trays with pyrocat without having problems (https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/stand-development-in-trays-rodinal.46835/#post-680960)

Make tests with fully exposed film strips...

I am sure there are. But that does not eliminate the broad and unfortunate assumptions that are at times extrapolated to a convenient conclusion such as developer choice and developer dilution just to keep things simple. Plus Xtol and Pyrocat are completely different animals. You want to use catechol in Pyrocat for its unique anti bromide drag characteristics at the 1.5:1:240 level you will need to get a $2 tube and two $3 end caps from the hardware store and take the risk out of play. You want to continue to play with tray development and this technique, by all means have at it.

[jurgenestanislao]

I am sure there are. But that does not eliminate the broad and unfortunate assumptions that are at times extrapolated to a convenient conclusion such as developer choice and developer dilution just to keep things simple. Plus Xtol and Pyrocat are completely different animals. You want to use catechol in Pyrocat for its unique anti bromide drag characteristics at the 1.5:1:240 level you will need to get a $2 tube and two $3 end caps from the hardware store and take the risk out of play. You want to continue to play with tray development and this technique, by all means have at it.is that solution for extreme minimal agitation? provided tubes are needed, what are the times and agitation frequency our of curiosity

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[Pere Casals]

I am sure there are. But that does not eliminate the broad and unfortunate assumptions that are at times extrapolated to a convenient conclusion such as developer choice and developer dilution just to keep things simple. Plus Xtol and Pyrocat are completely different animals. You want to use catechol in Pyrocat for its unique anti bromide drag characteristics at the 1.5:1:240 level you will need to get a $2 tube and two $3 end caps from the hardware store and take the risk out of play. You want to continue to play with tray development and this technique, by all means have at it.

Michael, yes.. all Steve Sherman recipes are done with those tubes and Pyrocat HD with flawless results... pyro produces less bromide for the same density as a fraction of the density is not produced by silver development but by the stain, I guess that dilution you say also helps.

In theory bromide drags are helped by the vertical film position as gravity helps, I moved to trays from tanks because of that, as I was having drags.

I use trays because it takes less developer one shot than tanks, with diluted developer not much chem is wasted. Also I use paper safe for the development tray so it's a daylight system, I close lights to move the sheet from the paper safe to a regular tray with the stop bath and after 30s I open lights again, fixing lights open. This is convenient because it's a pipelined job, while fixing/washing a sheet the paper safe is free to take another sheet for development.

[Pere Casals]

is that solution for extreme minimal agitation? provided tubes are needed, what are the times and agitation frequency our of curiosity

"EMA" is usually Semi-Stand agitated or Stand, so one agitation in the middle or none. Time depends on dilution, film and N+/-.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA5A7j_8c-Q

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChqeY3DPTJl41mltSC5C5Ag/videos?disable_polymer=1

https://www.powerofprocesstips.com/



EMA has very noticeable effects in the negative, you may perform a N+/- like with any other processing but it allows next:


> Shouldering highlights, extreme highlights develop less than with regular processing, reaching lower densities and conserving texture. That lower development in the highlights comes mostly from the Bromide development byproduct that's not removed from the emulsion because of the lack of agitation, Br is a restrainer. The effect of Br is well more intense than potential developer exhaustion.

> Increased "microcontrast", this is something I checked it well personally.

> If using pyro, the stronger stain in the high density areas (highlights) work as a yellow filter, so highlights are printed with less gradient with Variable Contrast paper, allowing to optically print extreme highlights in an easier way.


"EMA" is not a silver bullet, it's an additional tool we have that can be more or less powerful depending on our own skills.

[Michael Kadillak]

I use trays because it takes less developer one shot than tanks, with diluted developer not much chem is wasted. Also I use paper safe for the development tray so it's a daylight system, I close lights to move the sheet from the paper safe to a regular tray with the stop bath and after 30s I open lights again, fixing lights open. This is convenient because it's a pipelined job, while fixing/washing a sheet the paper safe is free to take another sheet for development.

Come on Pere. You are concerned about using "less developer?" You kidding me? I mix Pyrocat HD in gallon volumes and process a lot of 8x10, 11x14 and 8x20 sheet film and that gallon of developer lasts me nearly 18 months. It is without question the most economical developer we have access to if you mix your own which is not that hard. In my 8x10 gas burst tank I can do stand development and do six sheets of individual 8x10 film development in a run and in three and a half gallons of developer and I use three ounces of Pyrocat A and two ounces of Pyrocat B. Folks that are constrained with space or keeping their costs down to process sheet film can't go wrong with a black plastic tube you can acquire from the local hardware store and one hard and one rubber cap and you need little space to roll it. The SP-810 is a tool and reading these posts it does its prescribed job very adequately. I content that stand development is not one of these attributes however. Your fool proof choice is develop conventionally with the SP-810 with adequate developer concentrations and consistent agitation cycles and you will be fine. Use the right tool for the job.

[Pere Casals]

Come on Pere. You are concerned about using "less developer?"

Michael I agree that with Pyrocat you don't need to use trays to save developer, but there are other situations where it can be important:

If you compare with Yankee tank or Paterson Sheet Film tank for one shot, with trays you save a lot of developer.

For example (4x5, in this case) with Mod54 you need 1L for 6 sheets, even at 1:2 dilution with Xtol you waste 50% of the developer, if one shot. At 1:1 you use 500ml of stock chem when you need only 150ml, you waste 70% of developer if one shot.

Of course when mixing developers from raw chem then cost can be a least concern... anyway personally I take care to not use more chem than required, for the environment.

Me I usually use Xtol, using twice than required is a pain, mixing Xtol it is time consuming and there is a cost. Instead with liquid concentrates mixing it's easier and it can be done every time just before processing.

So for Xtol I value saving developer, for liquid HC-110 or Pyrocat I see less a need, but anyway I prefer polluting less.

[jurgenestanislao]

Come on Pere. You are concerned about using "less developer?" You kidding me? I mix Pyrocat HD in gallon volumes and process a lot of 8x10, 11x14 and 8x20 sheet film and that gallon of developer lasts me nearly 18 months. It is without question the most economical developer we have access to if you mix your own which is not that hard. In my 8x10 gas burst tank I can do stand development and do six sheets of individual 8x10 film development in a run and in three and a half gallons of developer and I use three ounces of Pyrocat A and two ounces of Pyrocat B. Folks that are constrained with space or keeping their costs down to process sheet film can't go wrong with a black plastic tube you can acquire from the local hardware store and one hard and one rubber cap and you need little space to roll it. The SP-810 is a tool and reading these posts it does its prescribed job very adequately. I content that stand development is not one of these attributes however. Your fool proof choice is develop conventionally with the SP-810 with adequate developer concentrations and consistent agitation cycles and you will be fine. Use the right tool for the job.Makes sense.

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[cp_photo]

I received my Stearman 8x10 tray weeks back but did not have a chance to try it out until today. My impression of it is extremely positive, and it is in fact easier to drop 4x5 film into the tray rather than fiddling with the SP-445 film holders. I still really like the SP-445 but this is better for me. I think it will help me avoid some of the earlier processing mistakes I made. Looking forward to trying it out with J. Lane 4x5 plates tomorrow.



I normally use the Stearman Press SP-445 to develop 4x5 sheets when I don't want to set the Jobo up. While I have enjoyed the SP-445 and like it very much, I will probably use this tray instead in the future. In the dark, it is much easier and much quicker for me to pull the sheets from my holders and lay them in the tray rather than trying to pull them and then slide them into the SP-445 holders. The SP-445 is not difficult, the tray is just easier.

[DaveF]

I agree that these trays are very cool. So much easier for 8x10 than the BTZS tubes if you don't have a darkroom (i.e. you don't keep having to go back into a tent to swap caps). I've used these regularly for B&W without fault. I'm about to be brave, buy some colour film, and try to use them to get back into colour processing. I'll probably set up my Jobo for heated water bath at least for E6 and for multiple sheets in one session: I entirely understand the point about the thermal profile of the tanks meaning that colour processing is possible, but you still do need to keep the chemistry at the right temperature - I'm planning to try out the new Bellini kits for E6 and C41 available here, which have had rave reviews.

[DaveF]

A quick update to say that I've successfully processed my first two sheets of 10x8 Kodak Portra 160 using the Stearman SP810 trays, and Bellini 1-litre C4 kit (which should last for a while, properly stored, and should do 16 sheets).
I followed the Bellini instructions for mixing, timings, and agitation, but set the waterbath to 40ºC (using a Cinestill TCS-1000, which works well and in my experience heats up the water more quickly than a Jobo because it circulates the water as well as heating it) and giving a 1min water prewash at 40ºC.
Time for colour developer with this is 3'15"; I timed from the start of pouring in to the time when pouring in the bleach, so started pouring out the developer at 2'58" to allow sufficient time to drain without overdeveloping.
First time I've had batch of C41 large format film where all the sheets developed properly. Previously I'd relied on a lab for 5x4; their processing for 120 showed no problems, but sloppiness made for uneven development on sheets.

Here's my first result, really only a test of technique and processing.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50103963992_a94a8ce2fe_h.jpg

[DaveF]

Another update from me after having completed my first batch of E6 with the Stearman SP810, using the Bellini E6 6-bath Kit and their instructions.

My first stage was to process a roll of 120 in an old Paterson tank, using the Bellini manual times (except with First Developer at 7'10" to match what used to work for me previously with the Tetenal 3-bath kit) and using their recommended agitation, 15" initial and then 5" every 30". This came out fine.

I then processed 3 sheets with the Stearman (2 Velvia and 1 Provia) using the same time and agitation (using the panning method). Marginally less successful - a couple had subtle tide-lines about 1/3 away along, something I can edit out in post I think. Almost certainly down to relatively low overall agitation time with the FD I think. I haven't got this with the C41 following Bellini instructions (now having processed 4 sheets of 10x8), presumably because the percentage agitation time was a lot higher during the colour developer stage since this stage is only 3'15" for C41.

So next time I will run a sheet using Klas' agitation times and method, which is in % terms about double the agitation time stated in the Bellini instructions. FD at 7'10" (timed from start of pouring to entry of wash water, factoring in 18" of time at the end to carefully drain the tray) works great btw - it is recommended that you extend FD for Fuji slide film.

Setup for all of this was 40ºC waterbath heating chemistry (both Jobo wash bottles for pouring and the storage bottles) via Cinestill TCS1000 and Stearman tray alongside, next to sink, and with 1minute 40º presoak. I started the presoak when FD temperature had gone past 38ºC.

So if I sort the agitation time I think this will be a winner. Compared to other (esp. Jobo) options this processing method is pretty cost-effective and compact; TCS1000 is pretty noisy, though, when circulating and heating (much noisier than a Jobo for instance): happy to turn it off mid-way through the bleach stage!





Did my first E6 8x10 sheet today in the SP-8x10. Came out perfekt, no defects, streaks or anything like that.
Quality of the tank is very high and its very easy to use.

200382

Here is the process I used:
- Fold the film sheet like a taco for 10s while loading the tray to create a small bend in the film, allowing faster wetting of the film. https://youtu.be/0WdzqOWl4h8?t=185
- Heat chemicals to 40°C
- Pre-soak with 40°C water for 1min
- Agitation 1min initially, then 10s (lift 5 times) every 30s
- Agitation method was to lift the tray slightly in the front, causing a gentle wave lengthwise.

200383

Best regards
Klas

[prismaphonic]

So far, it is exactly what I was hoping it would be. I wanted something that would allow me to quickly process a single sheet of 8x10 film, without having to set up my Jobo or working from trays in the dark.

It is a snap to pull a sheet of 8x10 from a holder and drop it in the tray. Inserting the divider and separator tabs for 4x5 takes only a few seconds.

I have only developed a couple sheets of 8x10 x-ray film, and two 4 sheet batches of Foma 100 4x5 just to try it out. I goofed up the first time I developed the 4x5 sheets. One of the sheets slipped under the separator tabs and glued itself to the sheet in the adjoining section. Here is what I saw after fixing the film and popping the tray top.

199288

I think it was a case of my not being mindful of how I grasped the tray while dumping the contents out. The second time, I was more careful about grasping it in the exact middle, and perhaps being a bit more gentle when dumping the liquid from the tray. No problems on the second try with 4x5 sheets.

I normally use the Stearman Press SP-445 to develop 4x5 sheets when I don't want to set the Jobo up. While I have enjoyed the SP-445 and like it very much, I will probably use this tray instead in the future. In the dark, it is much easier and much quicker for me to pull the sheets from my holders and lay them in the tray rather than trying to pull them and then slide them into the SP-445 holders. The SP-445 is not difficult, the tray is just easier.

And the opening of the tray is very easy and quick to pour in 500ml of solution into without making a mess. It is also easy to tip it and dump it out. I have a small workbench in the middle of my hobby room that I use. I just set an inexpensive dishpan to the side to dump the tray into, and place my graduates of chemicals on the other side and it couldn't be simpler to setup and use.

199289

Just like the SP-445, it is easy to pull the light baffles out and clean the tank when you are done with it. The baffles are molded with the text of which position they are intended to be placed back into, which is also helpful. Another positive point is that it has little feet molded on the bottom that make it very easy to rock the tray back and forth.

I haven't tried the J Lane dry plates yet and I am hoping I can process the dry plates in this tray. I know that special dry plate holders are available for the SP-445 tank, but perhaps I won't need them now?

I've also had this problem. I just got the SP-810 and have developed in it four times now and 3/4 times found a sheet stuck under the separator tab causing a dent in the film and uneven development.

I figured maybe the problem is actually putting the lid on in the dark. My theory is that if the lid doesn't go on perfectly straight then it might snag a piece of film and pull it under.

I don't quite see how one would slip under when draining. Aren't they designed to seat against the receiving holes in the base?

EDIT: Just to clarify, I've seen the SP-810 video on youtube showing Tim's method of putting your fingers against the receiving holes in the base to ensure the film isn't overlapping. Every time I've developed with it, I've done this and made absolutely sure the film wasn't covering the holes. This is what leads me to believe that you can encounter this problem if you don't put the lid on perfectly straight, which I have personally found to be VERY hard to do in the dark. Maybe others are just better at this step than me?

[Conrad . Marvin]

Practice makes perfect! I had a similar experience once, then I immediately figured out how to do it in the light and then in the dark with success in all subsequent times using the tank.

[prismaphonic]

Practice makes perfect! I had a similar experience once, then I immediately figured out how to do it in the light and then in the dark with success in all subsequent times using the tank.

What's your technique? I just realized that my problem might be that I try to align it to either the front or back. I just realized that if I tilt the lid to the side and align it to the side of the base first, then the middle tabs will be perfectly in line. I'm going to try that next time and hope that guarantees it won't pull a sheet along with it.

[tim48v]

I had to go back to the darkroom and try it to figure out how I actually do it!

I catch the front lip of the lid on the front baffle of the tank and then tilt the lid into place. You might have to slip the lid forward during the rotation downward. Takes a bit of practice but I've never had a problem.

Note: the reason the hold down tabs are in the lid and not the tray is simple: they have to be wider than the film they're holding down. We tried different configurations of hold down tabs mounted to the tray but they were awkward since you had to slide the film under them. It was too easy to scratch the film.

Side note: The only way your film could slide under the tabs is if the lid is warped and the hold down tabs don't go down far enough. (We've had two reports of warped lids.) It's pretty obvious if it's not flat.

Tim

[Conrad . Marvin]

I do something like that, I hold both ends of the lid as I lower it onto the tray. You can feel the center and should have no problem. I also like to shuffle the loaded tray to hear the loose films inside. Practice in the light with scrap films so that you can see how the film moves around after you place it, then put the lid on , pick it up and shake a little bit side to side and you will hear that the film is free. Then in the dark. Good luck! The tray is a fabulous design and I have stopped using my sloshers and other methods completely.

[kmallick]

I had to go back to the darkroom and try it to figure out how I actually do it!

I catch the front lip of the lid on the front baffle of the tank and then tilt the lid into place. You might have to slip the lid forward during the rotation downward. Takes a bit of practice but I've never had a problem.

Note: the reason the hold down tabs are in the lid and not the tray is simple: they have to be wider than the film they're holding down. We tried different configurations of hold down tabs mounted to the tray but they were awkward since you had to slide the film under them. It was too easy to scratch the film.

Side note: The only way your film could slide under the tabs is if the lid is warped and the hold down tabs don't go down far enough. (We've had two reports of warped lids.) It's pretty obvious if it's not flat.

Tim


I am very happy with the construction of SP-810. I am using it to develop two 5x7’s at a time with the tabs in middle row. However, I keep having one of the films slide under the middle tabs at the end of the development. Its very disappointing to see the negatives come out with the uneven development around the foot of the tabs. I have practiced and practiced in light and dark to make sure I have the lid on right. When its dry, the films do slip under the tabs when I shake the unit. I have noticed a slight upward bow in the top lid that does not allow the feet of the middle two tabs to sit flat and flush with the end ones. Could this be causing the film to slip under? When I press down on the middle part of the top lid against the bow the films don’t slip under shaking.

Any advice? I am scared to develop my 5x7’s at this point, paranoid that they will slip across and get ruined.

[CreationBear]

Any advice? I am paranoid at this point to develop my 5x7’s at this point.

Sorry to hear that, especially when you should be stoked about a new format. In terms of daylight tanks, I've had good luck with developing two 5x7 sheets in a Patterson Orbital--no tabs to deal with, just a pair of field expedient nylon screws to serve as a kind of gate so the sheets don't overlap. (FWIW, I'm using the Orbital in conjunction with a water bath, which seems to work well with a semi-stand agitation regimen.)

That said, given the photo you posted with lots of sky/reflected sky, it seems as if you might run into really challenging conditions more than I do--it might be worth exploring various "tube" approaches (e.g. BTZS or the "Steve Sherman" approach to semi-stand development). Both require total darkness for loading developer, but otherwise most of the process can proceed under the lights.

[kmallick]

Sorry to hear that, especially when you should be stoked about a new format. In terms of daylight tanks, I've had good luck with developing two 5x7 sheets in a Patterson Orbital--no tabs to deal with, just a pair of field expedient nylon screws to serve as a kind of gate so the sheets don't overlap. (FWIW, I'm using the Orbital in conjunction with a water bath, which seems to work well with a semi-stand agitation regimen.)

That said, given the photo you posted with lots of sky/reflected sky, it seems as if you might run into really challenging conditions more than I do--it might be worth exploring various "tube" approaches (e.g. BTZS or the "Steve Sherman" approach to semi-stand development). Both require total darkness for loading developer, but otherwise most of the process can proceed under the lights.

Thanks for stopping by. I appreciate your insightful tips, advice and suggestions.

It seems getting even development in a big swath of sky or similar is a challenge as the format gets bigger. I haven’t done 8x10 but I can already see how challenging it is to get uniform development in 5x7 compared to 4x5’s or 120 roll film.

I would try the Paterson Orbital if I could find one. Everyone have had good luck with SP-810 and it seems to be a good design, except my issues with film slipping under the tabs. I am so tempted to glue some small plastic stops like screws in the bottom pan of SP-810 to prevent the 5x7 films slipping under the tabs. I do have to give up the option of using it for 8x10 in the future. Can I use standard superglue? Is there any chance of that getting attacked by the developing chemicals?

[Kiwi7475]

Thanks for stopping by. I appreciate your insightful tips, advice and suggestions.

It seems getting even development in a big swath of sky or similar is a challenge as the format gets bigger. I haven’t done 8x10 but I can already see how challenging it is to get uniform development in 5x7 compared to 4x5’s or 120 roll film.

I would try the Paterson Orbital if I could find one. Everyone have had good luck with SP-810 and it seems to be a good design, except my issues with film slipping under the tabs. I am so tempted to glue some small plastic stops like screws in the bottom pan of SP-810 to prevent the 5x7 films slipping under the tabs. I do have to give up the option of using it for 8x10 in the future. Can I use standard superglue? Is there any chance of that getting attacked by the developing chemicals?

Give the guys at Stearman a call. They’re extremely helpful, willing to help, and can give you possibly the best answers since they’ve seen a lot through their customers. I’ve contacted them in the past with other type of issues, and they were a pleasure to talk to, and extremely knowledgeable about the issues people have seen with their products.

I no longer do 5x7 so I can’t help you but I can tell you the SP-810 works great for 8x10 and 4x10 and 4x5. Never had any issues of non uniform development. With tubes, however, I’ve tried most if not all options out there and many have issues and the rest are finicky. So I would advise to persist with the SP810 and just find a solution for your tab issue. It doesn’t get better if you go to another solution, unless you go for the Jobo Expert drums, and that’s a whole new ballgame and for many an unnecessary rabbit hole IMO.

[kmallick]

Give the guys at Stearman a call. They’re extremely helpful, willing to help, and can give you possibly the best answers since they’ve seen a lot through their customers. I’ve contacted them in the past with other type of issues, and they were a pleasure to talk to, and extremely knowledgeable about the issues people have seen with their products.

I no longer do 5x7 so I can’t help you but I can tell you the SP-810 works great for 8x10 and 4x10 and 4x5. Never had any issues of non uniform development. With tubes, however, I’ve tried most if not all options out there and many have issues and the rest are finicky. So I would advise to persist with the SP810 and just find a solution for your tab issue. It doesn’t get better if you go to another solution, unless you go for the Jobo Expert drums, and that’s a whole new ballgame and for many an unnecessary rabbit hole IMO.

I do trust that the guys at Stearman can help me with the issues and I plan to get in touch with them. I do plan to persist with SP-810 as the 5x7 sheets that I have been able to develop without the slippage and overlap issue have been very satisfactory with uniform development. The ones with any uneven development were likely caused by another sheet that partially slipped over it. I am anxious to solving the tab issue so that I can get back to processing without the anxiety of opening the lid to find the sheets entangled.

[m00dawg]

Thinking of picking one of these up after standing in the dark for 15 minutes doing tray development (well ok closer to 8-10 minutes). In particular, I'm not a fan of sloshing around 510-Pyro in the dark. Curious though, I think I saw a mention of X-ray film in this thread, but I'm guessing it'd have to be single-sided? Stuff like Fuji HRU (which is double-sided) probably won't work since the tray is designed to keep the film along the bottom (and/or that side may get super scratched?). Just thought I'd ask to make sure my assumption is correct there. I only use HRU for messing around so not a big deal but still curious if anyone has attempted that.

[Kiwi7475]

Thinking of picking one of these up after standing in the dark for 15 minutes doing tray development (well ok closer to 8-10 minutes). In particular, I'm not a fan of sloshing around 510-Pyro in the dark. Curious though, I think I saw a mention of X-ray film in this thread, but I'm guessing it'd have to be single-sided? Stuff like Fuji HRU (which is double-sided) probably won't work since the tray is designed to keep the film along the bottom (and/or that side may get super scratched?). Just thought I'd ask to make sure my assumption is correct there. I only use HRU for messing around so not a big deal but still curious if anyone has attempted that.

I have processed about 10 sheets of HRU on the SP810 without any visible scratches or any other issues. I don’t use a glass sheet at the bottom but I’ve seen others do that just yo be safe. I get both sides perfectly developed however you need to make sure right after you pour the developer in, you rock it enough that it will slide over a layer of developer underneath, and not ‘stick’ to the bottom plastic. It’s easy to tell because as you rock it left/right, the long edges of the film hit the sides of the SP810 with a characteristic sound.

[abruzzi]

I have processed about 10 sheets of HRU on the SP810 without any visible scratches or any other issues.

Same here--probably 15-20 sheets at this point. Looking at the design, you could probably fit a thin sheet of glass in there, and I'm considering getting one to try it that way, but so far the only scratches are handling scrathces (I'm still far more of a klutz with 8x10 than I am with 4x5.) The bottom of the SP810 is smoothly textured, and there are two long rectangular gaps that run the length of the tray, which I assume is to help the fluid (dev, water, fix, whatever) to get under the film.

[Nodda Duma]

Definitely contact Tim at Stearman Press. He will want to know about any potential deformation of the lids preventing it from doing what it’s supposed to, and is the person best positioned to help you.

[m00dawg]

Thanks for info on HRU! That's icing on the cake then! Fantastic!!! Looking forward to giving this a go!

[tim48v]

Kmallick,
Got your photos via direct email. Since you're nearby, the fastest solution is to swing by and pick one up.

Tim


I do trust that the guys at Stearman can help me with the issues and I plan to get in touch with them. I do plan to persist with SP-810 as the 5x7 sheets that I have been able to develop without the slippage and overlap issue have been very satisfactory with uniform development. The ones with any uneven development were likely caused by another sheet that partially slipped over it. I am anxious to solving the tab issue so that I can get back to processing without the anxiety of opening the lid to find the sheets entangled.

[tim48v]

Thanks for the info on HRU, I'm going to have to try it.

Tim

[Two23]

I've mostly used my SP810 to process 5x7 film and a few dry plates. Haven't had any issues. Also have used it for 4x5 with no problem, even though having the SP445. Have done maybe a dozen 8x10 sheets with no problem either. Have to wonder if technique is a big factor here. When loading 5x7 I am careful to push it into a corner and close the lid slowly so air currents don't move the sheets.


Kent in SD

[m00dawg]

My SP-8x10 came in today so opted to give it a go! I only had a single exposed sheet - Fuji HRU, but I figured that would be a good test. It's still drying and though I over-developed it (not the SP-8x10's fault - definitely mine), the experience was quite lovely! I opted to use the "panning for gold" method and it seems to have worked quite well and seems to have consistent development. Since I overcooked the negative, curious how it may scan and print but the process itself I think will work very well and hope to try it on some Fomapan 200 soon.

My development was using 510-Pyro at 1:100 for 6 minutes. That was a mistake :) The other sheet from the same day I had developed a 1:250 for 11 minutes (in an open tray) and that one came out a lot better. I got the time and dilution from the epic HRU thread here and I think that seems about right (of course the way to know for sure is to do film tests). I think 1:100 might end up needing a dev time that's perhaps too short. Anyways none of that has much to do with the SP-8x10 but thought I'd share that in case it's useful. I say it's over-developed just looking at the negative by eye but I'll know more when I scan it and perhaps try to contact print it as early as next week.

Anyways! Yeah really glad I picked one of these up. It's brilliant!

[Kiwi7475]

The SP-810 is really great for b&w. The only drawback is that you can only process 1 8x10 at a time, which is kind of slow. I keep two of them running in parallel to halve the time when I have several sheets to process. Since one only rocks every minute it’s easy enough to switch back and forth.

For color, specifically E6, it works but I don’t get great results because I can’t really keep it in a water bath to maintain the temp controlled. I can adjust the developer chemistry temp higher at the beginning based on how much the temp drops over the temp time but often I get some color unevenness across the sheet. Like skies non uniformly shifting in blue/purple hues. It’s not a huge amount but it’s just not good enough for me, given how expensive each sheet is. No bueno. If someone knows of a solution, I’m all ears.

[Nodda Duma]

Hey Kiwi,

I’ve developed E-6 8x10 in it — Aerochrome too — and for E6 in general you have to be aggressive in your agitation. For the SP-810 I pick it up and slosh it around as much as I dare. You’ll hear the edges of the film clack against the walls of the developing tray. Being that aggressive seems to help uneven development. I haven’t seen signs of scratching of the bottom gelatin layer (E6 has emulsion layers on both sides).

-Jason

[Kiwi7475]

Hey Kiwi,

I’ve developed E-6 8x10 in it — Aerochrome too — and for E6 in general you have to be aggressive in your agitation. For the SP-810 I pick it up and slosh it around as much as I dare. You’ll hear the edges of the film clack against the walls of the developing tray. Being that aggressive seems to help uneven development. I haven’t seen signs of scratching of the bottom gelatin layer (E6 has emulsion layers on both sides).

-Jason

Thanks for the tip! How do you handle the inevitable temperature drop for the developing phase, do you just adjust higher based on the expected drop so that the average is at the right level, or…?

[Nodda Duma]

Thanks for the tip! How do you handle the inevitable temperature drop for the developing phase, do you just adjust higher based on the expected drop so that the average is at the right level, or…?

Yes, that’s exactly what I do. Start at a slightly higher temp so that the average temp throughout development is exactly what it should be. It works well… I have a few examples in my media feed over on photrio (same ysername)

[kmallick]

I had reported my two 5x7s crossing under the tabs in SP-810. I wanted to close the loop on my issue. I contacted Tim at Stearman Press who happen to live in the next town over. He was gracious enough to me meet me locally and swap out my bowed lid with a flat one. Since then my processing for 4x5s and 5x7s in my SP-810 has gone really well with no sheets crossing over under the middle tabs and getting overlapped, thereby messing up the development. I am extremely pleased with how Tim at Stearman Press handled my issue. On top of that we had the most enjoyable discussion about large format photography when we met.

If anyone comes to this thread with issue of their 5x7s or 4x5’s overlapping at the end of development, I suggest suspecting the flatness of the top lid and contacting Tim at SP to resolve it.

I think SP-810 is a beautiful tool and I am looking forward to using it more despite my earlier bad luck with it.

[v.kapoor]

How is everyone getting along with these? Are most of you still using this for 8x10 processing, or gone a different direction? Looking for something to process color 8x10 and recently purchased a Jobo CPE3, but haven't heard good things about the Catlabs CL-81. And as you know, the expert drums don't work on the CPE!

[bmikiten]

The tray is fine. The temperature control may be an issues for you.

[Alan9940]

I use this tray for 8x10 B&W film when I have only a couple of sheets to process and for 4x5 glass plates. No complaints.

[Kiwi7475]

I’ve tried processing E6 with it and it’s finicky if you’re trying to achieve high color accuracy. Due to the large surface to volume ratio of the SP-810 (even if covered) you lose several degC during the development. You could adjust the start temp so that the average (of the start/end) is where you want it to be but it creates some issues and I get color shifts. So I would not recommend it for color although it may be workable depending on your expectations.

Otherwise it’s absolutely perfect for B&W.

[roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau]

Want to follow up here on a couple of points as a new SP810 user for 5X7 having done exactly 4 sheets (2 runs):

1) After following the posts here, has anyone actually glued their clips to the base to keep their films from wandering under, and found it to work?
2) Again, following the posts, has anyone tried putting glass sheets under each film? And if so, how'd that work?
3) Suggestion was made in this thread that the unit wouldn't work for Stand, Semi-Stand or as Steve Sherman calls it EMA. I've done semi-stand (50% more time with agitation every 3 minutes) and not had an issue. Curious whether anyone's tried long stands like 45 to 60 minutes?
4) Any other tricks? I'm thinking maybe have the bottom of the unit rest on square and let that help rock the unit by simply pressing down on the corners. Haven't tried it, but there might be some simplicity to the idea.
5) Fixing: Someone suggested FIX times might be different for trays. That's new-to-me but I'm curioius to learn more.
6) Radical thought on combining steps of the Stearman 810 with rotary: Anyone tried pulling their films out after FIX and putting them into a rotary process for the remaining steps? Anyone afraid to do so due to whatever handling issues that might create? I've got a rotary tube that could hold six 5X7 sheets and would involve 3 tray runs through the end of the FIX cycle and then run them all together through the final steps to LFN/Photoflow. It's an idea, but maybe not a good one.

Glad to come across this unit and find it's a lot easier way of running trays... something I thought I'd never do. Takes the intimidation out of it. That said, after years of using rotary and Jobo's and even acquiring the Jobo book and series of journals, I'm feeling like I ought to read up on tray development just to see what differs.

[Dugan]

I have three of them.
I use them for 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10, so I personally wouldn't consider gluing down the divider or clips...
I've never had a
problem with film wandering under the clips, even thin aerial films...I tape down the cover after loading the tray. Maybe your agitation is too aggressive, and/or the lid is lifting slightly?
The bottom surface isn't perfectly smooth in order to allow solutions under the film. Putting glass in the bottom would prevent that.
Are you pre-soaking? It is recommended by the manufacturer.
I use it according to the manufacturer's instructions and the only issue I had was my own fault for being tired and leaving the light baffles out...ONCE.
I wash the film after fixing by putting the film in a plastic tray under running water. An archival film washer would be ideal, but I don't have one yet.

[roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau]

I wash the film after fixing by putting the film in a plastic tray under running water. An archival film washer would be ideal, but I don't have one yet.

An archival film washer would be nice. Pricey, but nice.

No, I haven't had the problems I asked about, but these were matters brought up in the thread and not really addressed further. Perhaps the inquirers figured it out themselves.

FWIW, I'm using rubber bands to keep the lid on, and the only film wandering I've seen is due to a bad load on my part. Gluing things down would seem a limiting option. The use of glass... I agree seems puzzling, but that doesn't change that someone asked about it.

All that said, though someone here mentioned that the unit didn't (more likely "wouldn't") work for stand development in their mind, I've not seen any response of the sort from an actual user, and my use of the unit twice for semi-stand has been without issues other than a misread on time. Errors relate to working when tired or trying to multi-task other responsibilities.

Bravo for 3 units. Speaks well. I can say I do like the conservative use of water and chemistry. And the results are excellent.

[tim48v]

Not sure why you want to glue the clips in place?
The only reason the film would "wander" is if the lid is badly warped (we have had a few lids slip past our QC).
The best agitation scheme is to lift one side of the tray about an 1" or so and let it; repeat for the desired duration. For the next cycle, lift the other edge.

[roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau]

TIm: Thanks. I love the unit.

Let me next apologize for a lengthy note as I came to film after the digital deluge, and so missed opportunities to learn at neightborhood darkrooms, schools and the rest. This has meant I'm an internet taught junky - together with all the issues that accompany.

FWIW, the "glue the tabs" inquiry came from post # 91 (kmallick) and I failed to register you'd already solved it.

Moving on, thank you for your comment on agitation. I translate it as follows: "lift on one corner of the unit one time for each 5 second agitation cycle" I've been lifting all four corners in sequence, and that might be over-doing it. Takes me about 10 seconds to do, so that might be too vigorous? But that was semi-stand (30 seconds initially and then 5 or 10 seconds every 3 minutes until done; time 150% of normal)., Results were fine and even and without surge marks or other defects from my agitations. But your suggested approach would be a lot gentler.

From here, I have 2 inquiries:

Wash procedure:

1) Wash procedure with trays. DaveF in post # 25 mentions that washing procedures in trays are shorter. Really? Love to know more. I'm finding my wash procedure is killing me - it takes FOREVER. What I'm doing is as follows:
a) 2 minute wash - continuous agitation. Empty.
b) 10 minute wash in HypoTest using Photographer's Formulary mix (200mg of Sodium Sulphite + 2G's of Sodiumbisulfite - if memory is working here at the office). Empty.
c) Ilford 3-steps after that which with this unit I'm adapting as follows:
i) Wash in 5 cycles of lifting each corner of the unit for a slosh followed by 5 minutes sitting. Empty.
ii) Wash in 10 cycles of the above followed by another 5 minutes sitting. Emtpy.
iii) Wash in 20 cycles of the above followed by another 5 minutes sitting. Emtpy.
d) Wash in 2 minutes of continuous agitation. Emtpy
e) Follow with 1 minutes in Photoflow or LFN (I'm using LFN with none of the Photoflow issues I used to have - after many rec's here).
f) Hand to dry, and dab a corner with a Kimiwipe.

Thoughts and suggestions welcome. In particular, I'd love to hear that someone thinks I'm over-doing it, and I could skip or reduce some of this activity.

Stand Development:
A few in this thread have suggested trays as inappropriate for Stand Development. I've been around the track enough now to have seen this sort of comment before: "Stand only works with steel reels in steel tanks...." and I was a sucker for that, too. Yes, I have some of that old stuff. But I'm looking for real data, real experience: Do trays work with Stand? And specifically, does the SP810? Clearly semi-stand is fine. And I'd bet Steve Sherman's notes on EMA could be reworked to illuminate his longer 3-agitation cycles as well though the results might vary from his objectives, too. But I'd sure love to hear more.

[keithboston]

I'd like to add my .02 - I've used the 8x10 (and prior that, the 445) for a few years now, exclusively for 8x10 and 4x5, and what works for me is to use 2 large rubber bands (like RSM above) that you get from grocery produce to hold the tray together after loading 4x5 film. I've never had issues with the film slipping underneath the dividers. I also bought a chemical rocker - these are used in research and will gently rock a large tray at adjustable angles. Using the tray rocker and repositioning the 8x10 tray every 45 seconds to a minute, I have not seen any surge marks in development. Due the size of the chemical surface, I don't think I would attempt color development - although some rockers do have temperature control

Edit: my rocker is called "the hot rock" but even implied, it does not have temperature control. I bought it about 4 years ago for $50; unused.

[tim48v]

that seems like a LOT of washing. have you tried testing with Residual Hypo Test kit?
As for agitation: https://youtube.com/shorts/r4VwrPtALNg?feature=share

We know people have been using the SP-8x10 for stand development but haven't seen the results.

[roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau]

Tim: Yep. I've found another wash procedure which I hope to give a try today. Follows closely on one you wrote a blog post on Stearman Press. There's an equivalent I found somewhere around this Forum as well Fairly, some of the over-wash stuff evolved on the basis of curing the wrong problem - lack of waterflow to the backside of the film. With your unit, that's solved so I'm comfortable trying simpler and less washing.

I'm still learning the appropriate agitation technique for this unit - given that I'd never done trays before. I am so impressed with the ingenuity of your innovating a "daylight tray tank". Bravo! for pioneering this thing and giving folks another option other than tanks and reels and thereby adding an alternative hand agitation back into the game for folks like me. I've got one of Steve Sherman's BZTS-type tubes but haven't used it 'cause I develop in the laundry/utility room but my "lights out" room is around the corner... and I haven't figured the logistical merge.

Appreciate your E6 comments and the attribution of difficult temp control to the surface area. I would suppose that this applies as well to C41. Though I'm mostly B&W, I still have C41 kits lying around... and I do see folks turning out some good images using your unit. But color shift issues... rightly may be inherent as you suggest.