High-Speed Sync for Speed Graphic

[AeroK]

I want to use a strobe in conjunction with the focal-plane shutter in my Speed Graphic. Normally, one uses slow-burn flashbulbs because the shutter has vertically sliding slots -- different widths for different speeds. Regular strobes are way too fast and therefore only expose a small part of the frame.

High-speed sync simulates a slow-burn flashbulb by firing many times in rapid succession while the focal-plan shutter wipes across the film.

My question is: Has anyone figured out to connect the Speed Graphic's flash contacts to a strobe (or trigger) for high-speed sync with anything like Godox or any other strobes?

...doug

[Tin Can]

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/164971-REG/Paramount_PMBPPF_Female_PC_to_Bipost.html

However they are a tight and hard fit

I think you need to use slow shutter speeds and let the flash stop the action

I sometimes shoot without lights on

[Oren Grad]

Physically connecting the flash should be simple enough with a bipost sync cord. I think what you need to find out is the travel time of the SG shutter curtain at different tension settings compared to the travel time of the small, bladed focal plane shutters in modern SLR and mirrorless cameras for which HSS has been promoted. My guess is that the Speed Graphic curtain will be way too slow, that the HSS flash pulse sequence won't last nearly long enough to cover it. And if it does, the power will probably be so attenuated that it's not especially useful. But it's a great question, I too would like to hear about it if someone has found a way to make it work.

[Tin Can]

Searching, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16107292
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/flash-synchronization-in-1-8000-with-nikon-d70.125993/

Don't know OP's plans, need more input

I settle by using Packards and Dial Set shutters at 1/30th with any strobe

[Dan Fromm]

Tin Can has a point.

OP, why must you use your Speed's FPS?

[BrianShaw]

It can’t be worth the effort...

[BrianShaw]

Doug, I seem to recall that (some?) pacemaker graphics had synch contacts on shutter curtain... for FP bulbs. But your talking about retrofitting your Anniversary... right? If so, perhaps you need a second camera. :)

[Oren Grad]

Tin Can has a point.

OP, why must you use your Speed's FPS?

Dan, my guess is that it won't work. But if it did, it would be a welcome option for Graflexes with barrel-mount lenses.

[Tin Can]

Aren’t the Speed curtain sync contacts only in one place or opening?

That has messed me up before

[BrianShaw]

Aren’t the Speed curtain sync contacts only in one place or opening?

That has messed me up before

Not sure, but seem to recall some limitations. But don’t have any experience with that feature. A search of a user manual would answer that question. I’ll bet my 1966 PM 3&2 course book would say... will look up later if I can.

[AeroK]

OP, why must you use your Speed's FPS?

I'm using an Aero-Ektar lens without a shutter.

[Dan Fromm]

I'm using an Aero-Ektar lens without a shutter.

There are large Packards, you could mount one in front of the lens. Is 1/25 too slow given ambient lighting?

Re too slow given ambient, one way of dealing with that is to use slower film.

[Neal Chaves]

Just use a leaf shutter with X sync. Enjoy the focal plane shutter with barrel lenses. If you are determined to use the shutterless Aero Ektar with electronic flash, a front mounted Packard as has already been suggested is the best approach.

[Tin Can]

Also setting that combo up. Actually mine is ready but soon changing lens mount

I am sure my 1951 Speed has curtain sync contacts on only one slit as I thought they were NG some years ago

I will be checking that soon







I'm using an Aero-Ektar lens without a shutter.

[AeroK]

Don't know OP's plans, need more input

Thanks for the links to Packard shutters. Might work. Need a bit more studying.

I'm using an Aero-Ektar 178mm f/2.5 barrel lens. Not mounted in a shutter.

[AeroK]

There are large Packards, you could mount one in front of the lens. Is 1/25 too slow given ambient lighting? Re too slow given ambient, one way of dealing with that is to use slower film.

That might work, Dan. 1/25 is probably ok. I'd like the option of faster speeds to manage the ambient light, but 1/25 is better than nothing at all!

[AeroK]

I too would like to hear about it if someone has found a way to make it work.

I need to dig into the wiring of HSS strobes. It's probably not something as simple as a contact closure, but it might be possible to control it with an Arduino or something like that. I fear you're right, Oren -- that HSS won't last long enough for the relatively slow shutter speeds of the focal-plane shutter.

[BrianShaw]

The Pacemaker Graphic and FP bulbs was only for fast shutter speed: 1/250 and higher.

[Oren Grad]

I need to dig into the wiring of HSS strobes. It's probably not something as simple as a contact closure...

It might be. If the HSS setting is made on the flash rather than from the camera's menu, and the exposure mode is set for manual or for AE controlled via on-flash sensor rather than camera-controlled TTL AE, there might not be anything that needs to be communicated between camera and flash other than sync closing. In theory the duration of the HSS pulse sequence might be customized to different camera bodies via some signal through the dedicated flash contacts, but in practice I suspect that it's a fixed parameter.

[LabRat]

The ez, old school way is to use bright hot lights, and use any speeds you can meter...

Steve K

[Tin Can]

I tried 2K's a while ago, no thank you!


The ez, old school way is to use bright hot lights, and use any speeds you can meter...

Steve K

[LabRat]

I tried 2K's a while ago, no thank you!

Hey, Hurrell did it all the time!!!

But the poor subject might be scared of the "interrogation", or be cooked like BBQ...

Steve K

[AeroK]

...if the HSS setting is made on the flash rather than from the camera's menu, and the exposure mode is set for manual or for AE controlled via on-flash sensor rather than camera-controlled TTL AE, there might not be anything that needs to be communicated between camera and flash other than sync closing. In theory the duration of the HSS pulse sequence might be customized to different camera bodies via some signal through the dedicated flash contacts, but in practice I suspect that it's a fixed parameter.

Just a guess, but I would think the manufacturer would design a system in which the strobe was aware of the shutter speed so it didn't have to keep flashing once the shutter was fully closed. Big difference between asking the strobe to cover 1/500 seconds versus 1/8000.

[Tobias Key]

Just a guess, but I would think the manufacturer would design a system in which the strobe was aware of the shutter speed so it didn't have to keep flashing once the shutter was fully closed. Big difference between asking the strobe to cover 1/500 seconds versus 1/8000.

I don't think that is what happens. The shutter always takes the maximum sync speed (say 1/250th) to open then fully close at high speeds. The slit between the shutters (the shutter is never fully open at higher speeds) creates the higher shutter speeds. So the burn of the HSS flash is always 1/250th or whatever but at higher speeds the maximum power is cut as the gap between the shutters narrows. The shutter curtains themselves always travel at the same speed it's the timing of the second curtains release that controls shutter speed. So what you would need to look for is a flash that burns for the amount of time it takes for the the speed graphic shutter to fully open and fully close. I don't know how long that takes with a speed graphic but if it takes 1/30 with a Pentax 67 I would guess it would take a 1/15 or an 1/8 second with a Speed. I don't know where you would find a flash that burns for that long.

[Oren Grad]

Just a guess, but I would think the manufacturer would design a system in which the strobe was aware of the shutter speed so it didn't have to keep flashing once the shutter was fully closed. Big difference between asking the strobe to cover 1/500 seconds versus 1/8000.


So what you would need to look for is a flash that burns for the amount of time it takes for the the speed graphic shutter to fully open and fully close. I don't know how long that takes with a speed graphic but if it takes 1/30 with a Pentax 67 I would guess it would take a 1/15 or an 1/8 second with a Speed. I don't know where you would find a flash that burns for that long.

What Tobias said. The relevant parameter isn't the marked shutter speed, it's the curtain travel time, because that's the duration during which some part of the sensor or film is being exposed.

[Tin Can]

Nikon TTL History
What is TTL? D-TTL? iTTL? (https://www.scantips.com/lights/ttl.html)

[AeroK]

...the shutter always takes the maximum sync speed (say 1/250th) to open then fully close at high speeds. The slit between the shutters (the shutter is never fully open at higher speeds) creates the higher shutter speeds.

That makes sense Tobias. I think you're probably right. Thanks.

...doug

[AeroK]

...the shutter always takes the maximum sync speed (say 1/250th) to open then fully close at high speeds...So what you would need to look for is a flash that burns for the amount of time it takes for the the speed graphic shutter to fully open and fully close.

I'm still on my first cup of coffee for the day, but how about this: Assuming Tobias is correct and that the total duration of the HSS flashes are within a 1/250-second window, then I should be able to use the Speed Graphic's focal-plan shutter at 1/250 or faster. I just need to figure out how to trigger the flash. Might start experimenting today. ...doug

[Oren Grad]

In theory the duration of the HSS pulse sequence might be customized to different camera bodies via some signal through the dedicated flash contacts, but in practice I suspect that it's a fixed parameter.

Thinking about this some more, the frequency and magnitude of the pulses might be tailored to the shutter speed, though any of the sequences should work for a much slower curtain shutter - *if* the overall duration of the pulse sequence is long enough, which it probably isn't. Oh, well.

[Oren Grad]

I'm still on my first cup of coffee for the day, but how about this: Assuming Tobias is correct and that the total duration of the HSS flashes are within a 1/250-second window, then I should be able to use the Speed Graphic's focal-plan shutter at 1/250 or faster.

Again, it's the curtain travel time that matters. This is the HSS total duration you'd need:


...I would guess it would take a 1/15 or an 1/8 second with a Speed.

[AeroK]

Again, it's the curtain travel time that matters. This is the HSS total duration you'd need:

I probably would have figured that out after my second cup of coffee. Thanks again, Tobias!

[Oren Grad]

I probably would have figured that out after my second cup of coffee.

:)

[maltfalc]

i'm resurrecting this thread because it petered out before anyone figured out a practical solution, so here's how to do hss on a pacemaker speed graphic (i'm not as familiar with earlier models so no guarantees there).

option 1: get a modern flash with strobe mode, multi-mode, repeating flash or whatever other brands call it when you can set your flash manually to generate a series of flashes. any speed on the fps other than "T" will trigger the flash right before the shutter opens, then all you need to do is experiment with the repetition rate and duration of the series of flashes until you get good overlap between flashes and the correct total number of flashes to last the entire travel time of the shutter.

option 2: similar to option 1, except without strobe mode. instead you attach an encoder disk to the shutter winding key and use that to trigger the flash repeatedly in sync with the movement of the winding key. like with option one, any speed but "T".

option 3: same as option 2, except instead of an encoder disk you use the fps' flash sync circuit and replace the individual staple-like metal contacts along the edge of the shutter curtain with rows of contacts with a spacing equal to say half or a third of the width of their corresponding slit. again, any speed but "T".

option 4: set the fps to "T", it has x-sync and will work with any normal electronic flash. if you practice your double clicks you should be able to get a shutter speed somewhere around 1/10s without jamming the shutter.

[Tin Can]

I have several FPS long ago retrofitted with big microswitch, not by me

The flash is triggered by winder movement

Pictures need to be made?



i'm resurrecting this thread because it petered out before anyone figured out a practical solution, so here's how to do hss on a pacemaker speed graphic (i'm not as familiar with earlier models so no guarantees there).

option 1: get a modern flash with strobe mode, multi-mode, repeating flash or whatever other brands call it when you can set your flash manually to generate a series of flashes. any speed on the fps other than "T" will trigger the flash right before the shutter opens, then all you need to do is experiment with the repetition rate and duration of the series of flashes until you get good overlap between flashes and the correct total number of flashes to last the entire travel time of the shutter.

option 2: similar to option 1, except without strobe mode. instead you attach an encoder disk to the shutter winding key and use that to trigger the flash repeatedly in sync with the movement of the winding key. like with option one, any speed but "T".

option 3: same as option 2, except instead of an encoder disk you use the fps' flash sync circuit and replace the individual staple-like metal contacts along the edge of the shutter curtain with rows of contacts with a spacing equal to say half or a third of the width of their corresponding slit. again, any speed but "T".

option 4: set the fps to "T", it has x-sync and will work with any normal electronic flash. if you practice your double clicks you should be able to get a shutter speed somewhere around 1/10s without jamming the shutter.

[maltfalc]

I have several FPS long ago retrofitted with big microswitch, not by me

The flash is triggered by winder movement

Pictures need to be made?

option 2 would basically be that but with something kinda like this attached to the winder instead of a microswitch.
220548
it might also work to just have a microswitch pressed against the teeth of one of the shutter's internal gears, at least at slower speeds where the flash wouldn't have to strobe as fast and there'd be more overlap.

[wclark5179]

Could the fp shutter be held open then use a lens on the camera with a shutter.

Shutter in lens would sync with all shutter speeds.

I used a graflex, long time ago, but if my old memory is correct, the shutter was in the lens.
Side note, I had to lick the base of the flash bulbs to ensure it would fire!

Just a thought.

[maltfalc]

Could the fp shutter be held open then use a lens on the camera with a shutter.

Shutter in lens would sync with all shutter speeds.

I used a graflex, long time ago, but if my old memory is correct, the shutter was in the lens.
Side note, I had to lick the base of the flash bulbs to ensure it would fire!

Just a thought.

well obviously, but not all lenses come with shutters or shutters that do 1/1000s. nobody's buying a speed graphic unless they intend to use the fp shutter.

[Dan Fromm]

nobody's buying a speed graphic unless they intend to use the fp shutter.

Really? Why do you believe that? No insults, please.

[Bob Salomon]

well obviously, but not all lenses come with shutters or shutters that do 1/1000s. nobody's buying a speed graphic unless they intend to use the fp shutter.

You can only properly synch an electronic flash with a for shutter if the flash is fired when the curtain opening covers the entire film area. That will only be at slower speeds on your camera.

[maltfalc]

Really? Why do you believe that? No insults, please.

i'm sure there are occasional exceptions, but if you don't need a fp shutter a crown graphic is smaller and lighter and way cheaper. there's no advantage to choosing a speed over a crown other than the fp shutter.

[maltfalc]

You can only properly synch an electronic flash with a for shutter if the flash is fired when the curtain opening covers the entire film area. That will only be at slower speeds on your camera.

wrong. that's the entire point of high speed sync flash.

[Bob Salomon]

wrong. that's the entire point of high speed sync flash.

Not regular flash units.

[maltfalc]

Not regular flash units.read the title of the thread. and you're still wrong, even some "regular" flashes without hss can do hss with added circuitry. read the thread.

[BrianShaw]

Ignore

[Bob Salomon]

read the title of the thread. and you're still wrong, even some "regular" flashes without hss can do hss with added circuitry. read the thread.

One big reason to be able to use faster shutter speeds with flash is to be able to balance ambient light with flash output. Synching any electronic flash to properly expose an entire sheet of film at any speed becomes quite a project since the slit sizes in the fp curtain varies with the selected speed. There is not a constant slit size or curtain travel speed. So how would you accomplish this with a speed graphic?

[Dan Fromm]

i'm sure there are occasional exceptions, but if you don't need a fp shutter a crown graphic is smaller and lighter and way cheaper. there's no advantage to choosing a speed over a crown other than the fp shutter.

Almost true. 2x3 Pacemaker Speeds -- taboo here, but that's what I have -- have usefully more extension that 2x3 Crowns. Crowns are indeed friendlier to short lenses. I was able to justify having one of each. Others may disagree.

[maltfalc]

One big reason to be able to use faster shutter speeds with flash is to be able to balance ambient light with flash output. Synching any electronic flash to properly expose an entire sheet of film at any speed becomes quite a project since the slit sizes in the fp curtain varies with the selected speed. There is not a constant slit size or curtain travel speed. So how would you accomplish this with a speed graphic?

i've been over this already. it's not complicated or difficult, at all. read my previous comments and pick your favourite option.

[drarmament]

I think the only way you could get a modern strobe with a speed graphics:
You would need to get a circuit to tell the strobe trigger its in HSS and what the shutter speed is. This will tell the strobe to pulse the light out of the strobe.
I personally don't ever use HSS in my work flow, because I want the full power of my strobes. Using the Lens prong or using a PC sync cable, I get to use all the shutter speeds, B-1/400 or 1/500. On my digital camera its 1/200.

If you can't get to HSS, you can use an ND filter.
I use a Profoto B10+ , B2 Godox ad200s, and Godox AD400pro. I use the Godox trigger and My Profoto Air Remote didn't have a sync port, so I bought a trigger on ebay to use with my profoto strobes.

[maltfalc]

I think the only way you could get a modern strobe with a speed graphics:
You would need to get a circuit to tell the strobe trigger its in HSS and what the shutter speed is. This will tell the strobe to pulse the light out of the strobe.



that won't work. regular hss doesn't last long enough to cover the travel time of a 4x5 fp shutter. go read the third comment on page 4.

[djphoto]

Aren’t the Speed curtain sync contacts only in one place or opening?

That has messed me up before

More importantly are they reliable.. i've tested my focal plane shutter flash and it doesn't fire about one out of 6 times, film is too expensive these days to live with that.

If I'm shooting a flash with my fp shutter, I use T, and just try to be quick about the operations (open shutter, flash, close shutter). If I was going to do a lot of flash photography with the FP shutter I'd create something to automate this process.

[maltfalc]

More importantly are they reliable.. i've tested my focal plane shutter flash and it doesn't fire about one out of 6 times, film is too expensive these days to live with that.

If I'm shooting a flash with my fp shutter, I use T, and just try to be quick about the operations (open shutter, flash, close shutter). If I was going to do a lot of flash photography with the FP shutter I'd create something to automate this process.

they're reliable if all the contacts are clean.

[Tin Can]

Which means clean the metal strips contact switch built into the cloth shutter

Delicately


they're reliable if all the contacts are clean.

[maltfalc]

Which means clean the metal strips contact switch built into the cloth shutter

Delicately

and the contacts behind the bipin connector, and the switch that breaks the circuit when the shutter release isn't being pressed, under the cover plate on the side.