View Full Version : Thinking hard about taking the LF plunge.....
Hi all, happy holidays.
Disclaimer: this question may be in the wrong forum section and also, I don't have a LF camera, so there's a super good chance you are about to read a super stupid question about what's involved in this hobby. Just saying....
I'm thinking more seriously about getting into LF. I understand the equipment fairly well but it's the back end I'm a little fuzzy on. Maybe you can help.
First off, I'm going to be totally honest here, at least for now, I don't have an interest in doing any developing. I've actually done this many years ago and totally love it, but I just don't want to get into that realhm of the hobby. Again, at least for now. tell me I'm crazy and wrong and you'll be doing we an honest favor.
I just want to buy some film and shoot some landscaping photos of this and that and see where it all goes. Then, I want to ship off my film for processing and see what happens. Polaroid is a great option for me to start. Instant results to learn by and no development processing.
Is it even reasonable to shoot non-Polariod and just ship it off for development? Then, does that cost an arm and a leg? What is the cost of that? I'm still not even clear on what type of film to shoot with today on 4x5 format for color and b&w. What should I look for today on Amazon for instance? Being that I want to ship off the film, is there any benefit to b&w other that for it's artist merrit? Could I "jump" to color then?
What I'm really trying to do is understand the post-shoot workflow and cost involved in 4x5 format.
Many thanks for guidance.
P.S. I don't at all mind the post processing part that involves the computer. That part I'm ok with.
Tin Can
26-Dec-2019, 14:24
https://bluemooncamera.com/robot
Just the first place that popped up
and welcome to the forum!
Leszek Vogt
26-Dec-2019, 14:41
Happy holidays and welcome to LF forum. It would help if you give us your location or a county, so we can steer you to a place that does developing (b&w and color) near you. Only you know how taxing this could be on you. Where I am, a 5x7 film sheet costs around 6.50 to develop. You can also ask for a contact print or you can do this with minimal equipment (trays) even in your bathroom or a dedicated darkroom. One can develop film in trays, as well.
Prior to getting film, I'd concentrate on obtaining a camera and a lens or several lenses. Would you be doing landscapes, portraiture, etc ? If you will hike with it, you likely will need something lighter like a folder (?). Also, you'll need film holders, trigger release, a loupe, light meter and other accessories.
Under most circumstances one has to be patient and very few exposures take place on an outing (there are always exceptions)....just saying.
Once you have the image developed, you can also scan the negative on a scanner and then do some pp, or use a digital camera to copy the negative on a "light table" of choice....so you'll have a digital copy to work with or as reference.
That's it from me for a start....
Les
Happy holidays and welcome to LF forum. It would help if you give us your location or a county, .
Les
Hi. I live in the Phoenix area. Here's what I can see myself doing with LF....
Pretty much landscape work. I would like to be able to pack everything into my back and hike into the nearby parks. Even better, get everything into my bike and ride into position. That might be a challenge...
Anyway, I'm not familiar with the development process you spoke of, but it sounds reasonable. I'm not totally against post shutter development its just that I know what b&w developing means and looks like. That's a huge undertaking in and of itself!!
Hope you can all add some more color to this part of the workflow.
I suggest starting with 4x5. a lightweight folding camera such as a Chamonix 045n2 or Shen Hao, among others. You can often find something that will work used. Several film holders, a lens or two. For landscape I'll suggest either a 135mm or a 150mm. For color film you might look at Ektar--it's relatively inexpensive and gives good results. You'll need a magnifying loupe to focus with, a dark cloth (I just use a black t-shirt or jacket,) and a tripod. This would all be light enough to bike or hike with--I do both with mine.
I pretty much only shoot b&w with large format, and now wet plate (a totally different conversation!) I don't shoot hardly any color film--I do that with my Nikon digital. It's moderately difficult to process color film at home (I have not tried it anyway.) Processing b&w film is very easy. A year ago I was getting started doing that and now wish I had been doing it for the past decade. I use a Sterman SP-445 tank which is small and easy to load. I do it in my interior bathroom at night. I use HC-110 developer--easy to mix and use, and Photographers Formulary PF-4 fixer. Also use some distilled water. I do everything but load the film in my kitchen. It's about as easy as making pancakes. I scan the negs on an Epson v700 scanner but lately have been looking at "scanning" them using my Nikon D850 and a 60mm macro lens. (I do that now with the tin types I shoot.) I process the scanned negs in PS. When I do color film be it 4x5 or 120 etc. I send them to Blue Moon or Citizens Camera. Turn around is the hard part for me--it takes about a week & half. With b&w I just go home and process the film that night.
Kent in SD
Is it even reasonable to shoot non-Polariod and just ship it off for development?
Yes. Absolutely!
What is the cost of that?
It costs about $3~$5 per sheet to send out a sheet of 4x5 for processing. That's just to get the film developed and possibly a scan.
What should I look for today on Amazon for instance?
I don't think Amazon is a good place to buy film. Their prices for film are not competetive from what I've seen. Look on the websites of the big New York Retailers, Adorama and B&H, also freestyle photo in Los Angeles, and Badger Graphic in Wisconsin...there are others these are just the places that come to mind (because they are the places where I buy film).
...is there any benefit to b&w other that for it's artist merit?
Mmmmm....big hairy question...interesting but...too big.
Could I "jump" to color then?
Yeah sure shy not? Especially if you are sending your film out for processing. The cost is usually the same (for processing) 4x5 color or B&W...and color slide film tends to scan better than B&W.
P.S. I don't at all mind the post processing part that involves the computer. That part I'm ok with.
I think you'll have a lot of fun. Get yer self a crown graphic, a light meter, a couple of film holders and a box of Fuji Provia or Kodak Ektar or Kodak Ektachrome and have some fun!
I'd also recommend the book, "View Camera Technique" by Leslie Stroebel
Jim Noel
26-Dec-2019, 19:15
If you have no interest in processing, I think you will be wasting time and money even to rent a camera for a period of time.
You need to analyze what specifically interest you. Is the it the process of using large format? Is it simply curiosity? For me it's the way to get something totally different from what I get with my Nikon digital. With my large format cameras (Chamonix 4x5, Gundlach Korona 5x7) I can use lenses from any age. I have lenses made between 1844 and 2002. Instead of shooting color, which I can do with the Nikon equipment, I shoot b&w film, dry plate (circa 1900), and wet plate (circa 1850-1882.) Using lens movements I can do things with the view camera I can't with my Nikon. Finally, it's a very slow way to take a photo, and that makes me carefully previsualize the image before I take it. It takes me 15-20 minutes to take a shot with film, and at least half an hour doing wet plate/tin type. I don't take a lot of photos but my keeper rate approaches 100%.
Ken tin SD
If you have no interest in processing, I think you will be wasting time and money even to rent a camera for a period of time.
jeez, that's really harsh...and, I disagree.
I think that using color slide film and sending your film out to be processed is a very good way to get started with large format. The color slide film is easy to interpret - just hold the processed sheet of film up to a light source and you see your results directly. Color slides are easier to scan than B&W negatives too. And, having your film processed by a lab removes one of the sources of variability - which helps one learn how to interact with a view camera, how to handle sheet film and, for many of us, the basics of photography: composition, light and exposure.
I think that working with sheet film and a view camera offers so many new and exquisite opportunities to screw up that one invariably must learn a whole lot of basic photography to be successful, to even get a presentable result. I think that this learning alone is well worth the time, expense and effort - and, one certainly does not need to do their own processing to gain this benefit.
Oren Grad
26-Dec-2019, 21:56
I'm thinking more seriously about getting into LF.
Why?
What do you hope will be different about your experience of the process, compared to the way you make pictures now?
What do you hope will be different about the results, compared to the way you make pictures now?
Your answers will help us come up with advice that speaks to where you are now and will be useful for you, rather than just belaboring our own varied preferences.
WOW, you all have said important things to help me. Let me try to address them....
Jim Noel. I totally see your point and this is EXACTLY why I have not already moved to LF. My experience with b&w development is admittedly dated. I go back to the 80's. What I do remember was the post-shot phase has just as many variables and skill involved as the pre-shot. For me, I would rather spend my time setting up, planning and taking that shot and spend very little amount of time on the back end.
Oren Grad. Great question. To me, the attraction to LF is the thoughtful nature of it. The fact that you can control so much of the perspective is really exciting to me. I love the idea of finding a "cool view" of a landscape and then returning to that place at the right time of day and weather to capture that view in the most impactful way. What I'd hope to get out of LF would be a handful of badass b&w prints to hang on my wall.
Two23. Yeah you summed it up for me! But you and Jim have me rethinking where I need to go with this. If developing b&w has evolved to the point of making pancakes, well, what is my problem?
I really just need to learn more about the process and investment. It would be great to find someone local that shoots LF. I know the local community college offered a class in LF, but you needed a camera to enroll. I have a tendency to get into hobbies and not always follow through. Drives my wife crazy. She holds that over my head a lot!!!
Thank you all.
Holy smokes!! You guys are calling out some really expensive cameras for a rookie!! I was hoping to spend about $700 or less on all the gear (less a tripod).
If I were to stick with it, maybe 1k would be about right.
I love the looks of those cameras you suggested!
ShugPug
26-Dec-2019, 23:57
Holy smokes!! You guys are calling out some really expensive cameras for a rookie!!
Amen to that - I've held off commenting as I'm in the same position as you (absolutely no experience, but wanting to get in to it for a while bunch of different reasons). Have a look at the Intrepid field camera - it's much lighter weight and cheaper than some of the options, and probably won't last as long, but it's a damn site cheaper! I'm about 3 weeks in to my waiting time (6-8 weeks, but with the holidays in aiming the longer option, and add on delivery to the US) - I'll post my experiences here when it arrives!
BrianShaw
27-Dec-2019, 06:52
WOW, you all have said important things to help me. Let me try to address them....
Jim Noel. I totally see your point and this is EXACTLY why I have not already moved to LF. My experience with b&w development is admittedly dated. I go back to the 80's. What I do remember was the post-shot phase has just as many variables and skill involved as the pre-shot. For me, I would rather spend my time setting up, planning and taking that shot and spend very little amount of time on the back end.
Oren Grad. Great question. To me, the attraction to LF is the thoughtful nature of it. The fact that you can control so much of the perspective is really exciting to me. I love the idea of finding a "cool view" of a landscape and then returning to that place at the right time of day and weather to capture that view in the most impactful way. What I'd hope to get out of LF would be a handful of badass b&w prints to hang on my wall.
Two23. Yeah you summed it up for me! But you and Jim have me rethinking where I need to go with this. If developing b&w has evolved to the point of making pancakes, well, what is my problem?
I really just need to learn more about the process and investment. It would be great to find someone local that shoots LF. I know the local community college offered a class in LF, but you needed a camera to enroll. I have a tendency to get into hobbies and not always follow through. Drives my wife crazy. She holds that over my head a lot!!!
Thank you all.
I, too, have been holding back on reply since I’ve seen this discussion many times before...
Consider a few points... if you can’t work contemplatively with a 35mm or medium format camera, it’s not going to be much easier with LF. You’ll slow down, but mostly because of the additional work involved in the mechanics of operation... not the “visioning” or whatever you choose to call the “artistic aspects “.
If you have poor follow-through and don’t want to upset your wife, start minimalistic until you “prove yourself”. I know the concern, by the way. I have a brother like that and he’s now twice divorced because of it (and possibly other factors). But I digress... there are affordable entry points like monorail cameras. shop eBay for Cambo SC, or Toyo. The difference between these and prior suggestions is that you’ll have to basically work from your car trunk (and the nearby environs) rather than a backpack. Speed graphic are option too, but those won’t offer perspective control like the other options.
Whatever you do, do the soul-searching that Oren suggests. Decide if your committed or not, and make a productive move toward whatever your goal may be. I find that indecisiveness and “analysis paralysis “ leads to half-baked dreams that never come true.
Good luck. You can choose your level of involvement as long as you realize the implications of each option!
EDIT: why not contact the college professor and ask if you can get an introduction to one of the students. Maybe a tour of the gear and a in-person chat will help.
Tin Can
27-Dec-2019, 07:17
Everybody buys the wrong LF camera the first time. EVERYBODY!
I have a few now, understatement...
I bought 3 new ones, one was a 4X5 toy in plastic, it cost little and still works. Then I bought an 4X5 Intrepid and an ULF Chamonix. I sold them both at a loss, too delicate for my rough hands. Glad they are gone!
Once you get into developing film it can be done well in a closet with 3 trays, the rest is refinement.
Many of us have spare cameras, not me! LOL
Put up a WTB in 30 days when the advertising section opens to you.
"WTB 4X5 camera with good bellows, ground glass and a lens with working shutter. Also want 2 very nice film holders". Don't specify much more and see what we have to sell you. Excluding me!
I expect you may be surprised by what pops up.
Many members have given me gear, sold me very good deals and I have also bought much of what I want right here.
Way more people read and follow us here than ever comment. More than once a nonmember joined this forum specifically to GIVE me gear and they were gone!
Perhaps that's why I comment so much and make new threads constantly.
Jim Jones
27-Dec-2019, 07:40
New LF cameras can be expensive, but have little advantage over older and moderately priced equipment. I've owned many LF cameras and lenses over the past 60 years, and most were perfectly satisfactory. Perhaps the LF equipment that I used more than any other was a Burke & James 5x7 with an additional 4x5 back and a good Kodak lens from about 1950 that together cost about $225. For instruction books, Leslie Stroebel's View Camera Technique is perhaps the best, but expensive and doesn't cover the latest in equipment. Often overlooked is the excellent Way Beyond Monochrome by Lambrecht and Woodhouse, also expensive and just for B&W film. Other LF photography manuals by Steve Simmons, Jim Stone, Harvey Shaman, and others may be all the beginning photographer ever needs. Studying one or preferably more of these books may save the beginning LF photographer money when purchasing equipment. This forum is great for quick answers to specific questions.
Brian Shaw in post #14 gives fine advice. The camera is only a tool. It is what someone does with whatever tools are at hand that is most important. I shouldn't say this here, but digital cameras are the best on-the-job teacher of photography, coupled with books or internet studying for inspiration.
John Kasaian
27-Dec-2019, 08:44
All good advice here.
My 2-cents: stay curious and have fun!
Everything I have is used. If I quit using something I can resell it for about what I paid. January and February are the best months to buy used gear. It tends to go higher in warmer months. I see Ebay and buy/sell forum as a sort of library where I can leave a deposit and check something out as long as I want.
Kent in SD
Devloping black & white. For years this intimated me and I sent everything out. Not only did the processing cost money but also the postage. The killer for me was the week and half turn around. I finally bought a SP445 tank and small bottles of a few chemicals and started doing my own. My thought after doing the first one was, "Cripes, this is easy. Should have been doing it long ago." Color is a bit more involved but after doing b&w for awhile now I think I could do it with the SP445 if I wanted.
Kent in SD
keep an eye out on craigslist. i looked for months, then found a great deal on a toyo 45a. needed new bellows, but the price was adjusted accordingly. maybe i did buy the right one the first time? would/could be a first for me. love it. did a day trip to yosemite yesterday and shot almost 40 sheets, many more than expected. but now that im familiar and comfortable with it, the shots seem to come much faster. kinda missed my pentax 67, but this was my first 4x5 only photo outing.
keep your eyes open and good deals will show up
john
Just checked Ebay and found five "4x5 camera" that will do what you want for under $500.
Kent in SD
I think the key here for me is understanding the post-processing better.
If I can get a better feel and understanding of the time investment and cost investment, I can plug that into the complete equation. Right now I'm a little dated and blind to that part. AND THAT'S a huge part of this.
Best tips and references???
BrianShaw
27-Dec-2019, 10:31
That’s not the key... your overthinking. What do you really want to do with bigger film that you can’t do with smaller film?
BTW, for me an answer of “I just want to...” is good enough. I get great joy out of using a press camera, shooting 4x5, and sending out for processing. No difference than if I used a smaller camera except the thrill of using vintage camera and bigger film.
Brian, with all due respect, I don't think I'm over thinking this....
At this point for me, its a numbers game. I can go ahead and drop $700 or more on the necessary gear to take the picture. BUT, what about the cost on the back end? What if that also cost $700??? What about $1000 or more. That would really suck to find that out! But, what if it really only boils down to a couple of hundred bucks to do it myself and the time commitment is a couple of hours on a Saturday?
The latter of the two is very reasonable and would not kill the equation.
So that's what I mean when I say I need to understand the back end process better in terms of cost and time commitment.
That said, I totally hear what you're saying....you're just saying JUST DO IT!!! :)
BrianShaw
27-Dec-2019, 10:52
Try this scenario... the minimum gear you need:
4x5 camera. You can get one with lensboard and lens for about $200 to 300 if you shop carefully and don’t get caught up with trying to “buy the best” or “buy the perfect kit the first time”.
Film holders... a couple. $40, maybe.
Box of film. Another $40.
Shipping on the above.
Processing... 5/sheet plus & $8 return postage.
You can use any number of metering methods that you already have.
Loading film... maybe you need a changing bag. Another $20.
Dark cloth... borrow a bathroom towel.
Lens shade... old baseball cap, unless you have a nice fedora to use.
Your wife will love me (although she might want to propose an alternative to her towels). You’ll love me too...
EDIT: also fit into your equation the probability that some money will need to be spent for overhauling the shutter on whatever lens you get. About $150 and maybe plus shipping.
John Kasaian
27-Dec-2019, 10:53
I think the key here for me is understanding the post-processing better.
If I can get a better feel and understanding of the time investment and cost investment, I can plug that into the complete equation. Right now I'm a little dated and blind to that part. AND THAT'S a huge part of this.
Best tips and references???
Post processing? If you're sending it to a lab, the lab can supply the cost/time frame info. If it's going to be DYI you've got trays, daylight tank or a processor, chemicals and some sort of washer & timer to collect. Manufacturers publish tables for chemical requirements to soup a given amount of film. I've used a Unicolor processor with the drums for paper with decent results. There is an article in the LF Homepage (light blue banner at the top of this page) on the how to do this, or go deluxe with a Jobo.
Printing, IMHO is more fun than developing film.
Are you planning on using a scanner, enlarger, or contact printer?
Louis Pacilla
27-Dec-2019, 11:07
Brian, with all due respect, I don't think I'm over thinking this....
At this point for me, its a numbers game. I can go ahead and drop $700 or more on the necessary gear to take the picture. BUT, what about the cost on the back end? What if that also cost $700??? What about $1000 or more. That would really suck to find that out! But, what if it really only boils down to a couple of hundred bucks to do it myself and the time commitment is a couple of hours on a Saturday?
The latter of the two is very reasonable and would not kill the equation.
So that's what I mean when I say I need to understand the back end process better in terms of cost and time commitment.
That said, I totally hear what you're saying....you're just saying JUST DO IT!!! :)
If it where me and I had a smallish amount to "jump in" I would start shopping for a semi complete camera either a rail camera,lens/lenses mounted on lens board a hand full of holders along w/a case for transport or a complete Crown Graphic with a lens or two a fiber case and a hand full of holders.Neither should run you more then 350-500 bucks leaving enough for first couple of boxes of film Now buy a box of film and give it a try.
BTW-If it goes nowhere fast and wife is not pleased then sell off the gear and you should easily recoup all but the coast of film and this may not displease your wife all that much with little to no lose of monies.
BTW2- If you can keep your eyes on Craigslist for complete rail camera systems for good prices it's hit or miss but every once in while I see a good starter deal for a fairly complete system on it. Sometimes you'll have to drive a bit for a good deal and other times you may find nothing at all for days/months.So it's hit or miss for sure but worth keeping an eye on.
Peter De Smidt
27-Dec-2019, 11:12
One of us should be near you. Meeting up and doing some photography together would be a great way to try different gear and get a better idea of what's all involved.
I found this local. He'll take less than the eBay price. But for reference:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F184021534634
Tin Can
27-Dec-2019, 11:45
We don't do valuations, so we should not comment per Mod rules on this forum
I found this local. He'll take less than the eBay price. But for reference:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F184021534634
Are you planning on using a scanner, enlarger, or contact printer?
This is exactly what I'm talking about! How can I think about buying into a LF system when I can't answer John's question!!
I know too little about the full end to end process to justify the plunge!
To answer your question, I think scanning makes the most sense to me. But that's based on very limited knowledge of the pros and cons. Seems to me, you develop the negatives and scan them into the digital world and then I'm off to the races. The other two options to me sound like more sub-hobbies and more complicated processing methods.
If I understand it right. Camera...shoot it... develop the negative in my bathroom...scan the negative to my computer... process the scanned image...print the image with a pro lab...ship it to me...put it on the wall.
What I miss?
BrianShaw
27-Dec-2019, 11:55
I found this local. He'll take less than the eBay price. But for reference:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F184021534634
That’s an option. Very high quality camera with fine controls. You could use something like that... or something a lot less sophisticated.
You must be my brother...
What you found is a good deal, but it will be heavy to carry. And yes, I think everyone is missing what you are saying about what to DO with the photos. I scan all of mine on an Epson v700. Even used those cost $350. I'll back track on what I said and suggest that to start, and to see if you even like it, send your film to a place that will process and give you a medium quality scan. I also agree with Peter above that you can probably find someone within a couple of hundred miles of you that could meet you somewhere and show you what's involved. I live at the junction of I-29 and I-90 in eastern South Dakota and am will to drive a hundred miles to catch you. Hundred miles ain't nothing around here.:D
Kent in SD
Bernice Loui
27-Dec-2019, 12:23
First item to consider is the finished print as your goal. This needs to be the primary focus of how the rest of the image creation system needs to come together, what tools are needed, what materials needs to be chosen-used. Without a solid idea of the kind of expressive images are to be produce, camera-lens, format size, film, film processing, print making (digital or chemical), print mounting is mostly irrelevant as each item within the print making process needs to be tailored to your specific expressive image making needs. Don't go out and get a camera based on the idea-belief the camera-lens is central to the resulting print as there are MANY factors to consider centered around the finished print goal.
IMO, too many believe it is the camera-lens that produces the image. Reality is, that is only one item in the entire system of what is required to produce that print. To achieve a very specific print result demands control of every aspect of this print making process which includes film processing and each and every fine detail of the print making process. Yes, one can take short-cuts and job-shop out the individual print making elements, which is great if that is your method to achieving your print making goals. But, know this method will have limitations due to factors and work that is beyond your control.
Bernice
This is exactly what I'm talking about! How can I think about buying into a LF system when I can't answer John's question!!
I know too little about the full end to end process to justify the plunge!
To answer your question, I think scanning makes the most sense to me. But that's based on very limited knowledge of the pros and cons. Seems to me, you develop the negatives and scan them into the digital world and then I'm off to the races. The other two options to me sound like more sub-hobbies and more complicated processing methods.
If I understand it right. Camera...shoot it... develop the negative in my bathroom...scan the negative to my computer... process the scanned image...print the image with a pro lab...ship it to me...put it on the wall.
What I miss?
BrianShaw
27-Dec-2019, 12:27
”If I understand it right. Camera...shoot it... develop the negative in my bathroom...scan the negative to my computer... process the scanned image...print the image with a pro lab...ship it to me...put it on the wall.
What I miss?”
You didn’t miss a thing. Except, perhaps, framing. What you outlined is a perfectly viable option. There are other viable options too. There’s no need to commit to just one. First things first... capture a worthy subject on film. Improvise and improve from there!
”If I understand it right. Camera...shoot it... develop the negative in my bathroom...scan the negative to my computer... process the scanned image...print the image with a pro lab...ship it to me...put it on the wall.
What I miss?”
You didn’t miss a thing. Except, perhaps, framing. What you outlined is a perfectly viable option. There are other viable options too. There’s no need to commit to just one. First things first... capture a worthy subject on film. Improvise and improve from there!
yeah...what he said. Don't over think it. Analysis paralysis and all of that.
Try...something, anything.....
or sit at the computer and analyse it to death.
Only one option has a chance of producing a print.
If I understand it right. Camera...shoot it... develop the negative in my bathroom...scan the negative to my computer... process the scanned image...print the image with a pro lab...ship it to me...put it on the wall.
What I miss?
Load film holders in the dark.....operate & shoot camera......unload holders in dark bathroom....process in SP445 in kitchen.....scan negs. Requires a way to scan negs, which will cost some extra money.
Load film holders in the dark....operate & shoot camera....unload holders in dark bathroom, place film in film box.....mail off requesting process and medium quality scan.
I think option two makes the most sense for you starting out. It would be a lot less to learn all at once and less money up front. I do process & scan my own film but I've worked up to it. It's not hard but it does involve time and money. For you I suggest find a used folding 4x5 camera such as the "Wista field 4x5 Wood" on ebay which includes three holders. Find a used 135mm or 150mm lens in Copal shutter, prefereably already in a lens board. Buy a box of Ilford FP4+, use a black jacket or t-shirt as a dark cloth, either meter with your digital camera or buy a $50 incident light meter. Load film in a windowless room at night, lights off in adjoining room. The white strip on the dark slide goes towards you. Set up and level, focus camera, make sure viewing shutter is closed when you remove dark slide. Take shot, replace dark slide with the black strip now facing you. Unload film in dark bathroom, place film in an empty film box someone here sends you for free, close it back up and write how many sheets are inside. You can now send that film to be processed and scanned or keep shooting more sheets and sending later.
Kent in SD
BrianShaw
27-Dec-2019, 13:31
Let me repeat something Kent said... it really profound: “FP4+“
Tin Can
27-Dec-2019, 13:47
but but
One can make an image on a computer, no camera or lens required, send the file to a 'lab', they print it, frame and ship it anywhere
I have done that!
Here it is, made in Photoshop 1999 by me, then sent by that Internet thing to a printer who made 10,000 stickers which I gave away at Art Fairs, 10 at a time, with a warning do not stick them anywhere near here. Teachers loved them and asked for more, some laughed, some got mad, one guy said 'I am an Artist' and ran the other way. One gallery went totally nuts, we never entered it. It was a huge Art Street Festival with no one denied to participate if they paid $25 for a space. I signed up, paid, no request for 'space'. The guy running the event got really mad at me for giving away a free round sticker as he was selling $5 round stickers for street admission to art gazers. He forced me to move 2 blocks away. Yes sir!
The next day he apologized!
Second year, I came back with stickers and free T Shirts, if they wore them right now and let me take a picture. I have 4000 stickers left and 10 T shirts. Later that year I took the show to Burning Man with the Honda Civic NOT ART car which they certified as an Art Car allowing ne to display it anywhere on the Playa. My camp loved the shirts.
Image that...
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49283481877_9faca9a654.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2i61J9M)1-NOT ART Sticker (https://flic.kr/p/2i61J9M) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49282789648_620e111374.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2i5XbnN)1-camera guy (https://flic.kr/p/2i5XbnN) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49283263781_0062bcdaab.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2i5ZBjv)1-2 girl (https://flic.kr/p/2i5ZBjv) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49283279196_85189feb35_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2i5ZFUh)1-01-NOT ART Car (https://flic.kr/p/2i5ZFUh) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr
What you found is a good deal, but it will be heavy to carry. And yes, I think everyone is missing what you are saying about what to DO with the photos. I scan all of mine on an Epson v700. Even used those cost $350. I'll back track on what I said and suggest that to start, and to see if you even like it, send your film to a place that will process and give you a medium quality scan. I also agree with Peter above that you can probably find someone within a couple of hundred miles of you that could meet you somewhere and show you what's involved. I live at the junction of I-29 and I-90 in eastern South Dakota and am will to drive a hundred miles to catch you. Hundred miles ain't nothing around here.:D
Kent in SD
Hi. yes you are onto this now...
I just lost a auction on a Tachihara kit. It went for a really good deal. I would have been more aggressive had I had more understood. The things you are talking about with the scanner is what I need to understand better.
At this point this is what I've summarized from this thread (which you have personally been very helpful), but all of you have really helped:
Quit dithering and get a camera
Don't worry about getting the perfect first camera, its all wrong (and that's fine)
A good strategy is to shoot and send it all out for processing
Increase the number of variables and cost when ready to jump into development and post processing
Don't need to spend a ton of money on the camera (refer back to #2)
Find someone local and tag along as an observer
This thread has been very helpful. I think I'm going to head over to the other parts of this forum and learn more about the backend of this workflow.
You guys are great!
BrianShaw
27-Dec-2019, 17:50
... and if the camera from #2 stops serving your needs, buy another that does.
... and if the cost/quality of processing from #3 stops serving your needs, implement step 4.
... and if you have leftover money from step 5, take your wife out to dinner.
... and if you make either errors or good images from step 6, start a thread so we can all laugh/cry/celebrate together!
Your headed in a great direction! LF, no matter how you want to do it is a great photographic experience!
... and if the camera from #2 stops serving your needs, buy another that does.
... and if the cost/quality of processing from #3 stops serving your needs, implement step 4.
... and if you have leftover money from step 5, take your wife out to dinner.
... and if you make either errors or good images from step 6, start a thread so we can all laugh/cry/celebrate together!
Your headed in a great direction! LF, no matter how you want to do it is a great photographic experience!
This is hilarious!
blue4130
27-Dec-2019, 21:29
A good strategy is to shoot and send it all out for processing
You guys are great!
If I sent my stuff out for processing, I'd be broke long before I learned anything. Developing is dead easy and you can shoot 5 times as much for the same costs. You'll learn much quicker.
If I sent my stuff out for processing, I'd be broke long before I learned anything. Developing is dead easy and you can shoot 5 times as much for the same costs. You'll learn much quicker.
Agree that processing is easy but then you need to have the equipment to scan it. That's going to cost hundreds more. I suggest starting simple to see if you like it and spreading out the costs more.
Kent in SD
I will add that there are some very old cameras on Ebay at the moment. A couple don't use modern film holders. The wista, shen hao, tachichara are nice because they take modern holders and easy to find technika metal lens boards.
Kent in SD
Agree that processing is easy but then you need to have the equipment to scan it. That's going to cost hundreds more. I suggest starting simple to see if you like it and spreading out the costs more.
Kent in SD
Kent, you have my situation dialed in. That's exactly how I see it. I might get started and shoot a whole bunch, ship it off and come back with a few keepers. Then, it will sit for a few months when it gets hot in Arizona, then then what? Do I keep shooting? If I do, then spending more money on more equipment and get into the development and processing will be easy to flip the bill. But all now???? First things first.
Right now I'm struggling to settle in on a few target cameras to track on eBay. I'm looking for a complete set of gear so I don't have to worry about not getting matched equipment.
I actually like the idea of a monorail even for field work. Reality is, I will NOT be back packing this thing anywhere far from the car or home, and if I can fit it into a backpack and I can ride my bike with all of it, then a few extra pounds is not going to break me.
I need to go back and re-read this thread for the recommendations.
Peter De Smidt
27-Dec-2019, 22:57
Why not get a Crown graphic and a 135mm press lens to start? They're fine cameras, sturdy and easy to use. Cheap. Not a lot of movements, but then landscapes usually don't take all that much. If you find you like LF but want a more flexible camera, then you can always sell the Crown, or you can keep it as a throw in the car type of camera. Any older lens you buy will probably need a CLA (clean, lube, adjust).
Jim Jones
28-Dec-2019, 06:40
The most valuable investment for a novice in a new area of photography is knowledge. Adam is getting some of that here. Books and YouTube are other sources. A good manual on photography covers aspects of it that a novice might not think to ask about. Over many decades I've accumulated more than a hundred books on photography and photographers. They inform, entertain, and inspire me. Only by seeing what other photographers have produced and how they did it could I plan my own venture into photography.
Tin Can
28-Dec-2019, 08:14
Watch videos This one is simple, but I can do it even simpler as i eliminate 2 of the packets of chems and use old free trays. That Ilford kit could process 8-4x5 negs as that is the same as 2 rolls of 35mm
Many discussions here on the 'right way' to process film. People love to try every developer, every temp...etc, many mix their own special good one!
The best advice I got here 8 years ago was to just pick one developer and use it until you know it very very well
I still use that same developer and no I won't share as that just starts arguments. It is one of the oldest developers, cheap and liquid. I don't like powder chems, me lungs hate them...I do use special water, aka distilled water 80 cents a gallon. I wash with tap water that i won't drink. Sometimes i use my fingers as thermometers, of course we all advise to not touch any chem.
ILFORD SIMPLICITY Film Processing Photo Chemicals (https://youtu.be/THAmbtR1Kpg)
John Kasaian
28-Dec-2019, 08:53
This is exactly what I'm talking about! How can I think about buying into a LF system when I can't answer John's question!!
I know too little about the full end to end process to justify the plunge!
To answer your question, I think scanning makes the most sense to me. But that's based on very limited knowledge of the pros and cons. Seems to me, you develop the negatives and scan them into the digital world and then I'm off to the races. The other two options to me sound like more sub-hobbies and more complicated processing methods.
If I understand it right. Camera...shoot it... develop the negative in my bathroom...scan the negative to my computer... process the scanned image...print the image with a pro lab...ship it to me...put it on the wall.
What I miss?
I get ya!
You want prints to enjoy looking at on the wall.
If you're a computer guy, that appears as the way to go.
Folks here apparently receive a great deal of joy from tweaking images on monitors, and that's fine.
Others go some kind of hybrid or wet darkroom.
I prefer a wet darkroom and contact printing, but I shoot 8x10 and some 5x7. While I have an 8x10 enlarger, I no longer use it because I enjoy contact printing those formats.
If being limited to 4x5 prints sound good to you, go for it but don't be put off by that "limitation". You could always have it scanned and enlarge on a computer and sent off to a printer(you'll find plenty of opinions here on which is best as well as learning some funky sounding words like Heidelberg and Gliclee ) or set up an enlarger and go fully traditional, whichever way your muse leads you.
I'll recommend starting with contact printing---it's both economical to get into and when done well has a charming, intimate quality I think you may enjoy.
It is also helpful for understanding the differences between handling sheet film vs. roll film.
That way you'll begin learning how to operate your camera and composing your shots---arguably the most intensive part of the learning process.
Then you're on your own.
Louis Pacilla
28-Dec-2019, 08:57
If it where me and I had a smallish amount to "jump in" I would start shopping for a semi complete camera either a rail camera,lens/lenses mounted on lens board a hand full of holders along w/a case for transport or a complete Crown Graphic with a lens or two a fiber case and a hand full of holders.Neither should run you more then 350-500 bucks leaving enough for first couple of boxes of film Now buy a box of film and give it a try.
BTW-If it goes nowhere fast and wife is not pleased then sell off the gear and you should easily recoup all but the coast of film and this may not displease your wife all that much with little to no lose of monies.
Why not get a Crown graphic and a 135mm press lens to start? They're fine cameras, sturdy and easy to use. Cheap. Not a lot of movements, but then landscapes usually don't take all that much. If you find you like LF but want a more flexible camera, then you can always sell the Crown, or you can keep it as a throw in the car type of camera. Any older lens you buy will probably need a CLA (clean, lube, adjust).
I agree with Peter on this & in fact is what I suggested in post # 43 and like I said if bought right you should have a couple hundred of your budget left over for a couple boxes of film.
John Kasaian
28-Dec-2019, 10:25
Did the OP realize he stumbled into a nest of LF "enablers" when he started this thread? LOL!
BrianShaw
28-Dec-2019, 10:37
I agree with Peter on this & in fact is what I suggested in post # 43 and like I said if bought right you should have a couple hundred of your budget left over for a couple boxes of film.
I found this approach such a good idea that I have 2 speed graphics plus a monorail. It a really under-rated approach when movements or a diversity of lenses aren’t essential.
Developing film is easy and cheap; do it 2-3 times and it becomes routine.
If you can develop B&W, you can develop C-41; with the latter, you have to keep an eye on your temps for the first two steps, but it's essentially the same as processing B&W.
Get a Job Multitank 5 (2550) with a 2501n reel (maybe 2 of them; the reel expands to accommodate 4x5 sheet film, and contracts to accommodate 120/220 film.
Here's the Chinese copy: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Poilot-P2550-Multitank5-135-120-sheet-Film-developing-Tank-for-JOBO-Processor/232377309144?hash=item361ac457d8:g:320AAOSwN2VZRik7
My suggestion is to develop at home, save $$$, and send out your best shots for good scans. But getting a home scanner is preferable, if budget/space allow.
Older Epson scanners are cheap: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Epson-Perfection-4990-Flatbed-Scanner-with-Film-Masks/324025981767?epid=92338626&hash=item4b71741b47:g:79AAAOSw5rdeB8Tt
Do everything yourself, in the long run it's much less expensive, and you'll be rewarded by the knowledge and skill you've gained, and you'll improve quickly and drastically in all your photographic endeavours.
The only part that I would not do at home is the (digital) printing. If you print occasionally, it's not worth keeping a large, high-cost/high-maintenance printer at home.
blue4130
28-Dec-2019, 16:42
Developing film is easy and cheap; do it 2-3 times and it becomes routine.
If you can develop B&W, you can develop C-41; with the latter, you have to keep an eye on your temps for the first two steps, but it's essentially the same as processing B&W.
Get a Job Multitank 5 (2550) with a 2501n reel (maybe 2 of them; the reel expands to accommodate 4x5 sheet film, and contracts to accommodate 120/220 film.
Here's the Chinese copy: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Poilot-P2550-Multitank5-135-120-sheet-Film-developing-Tank-for-JOBO-Processor/232377309144?hash=item361ac457d8:g:320AAOSwN2VZRik7
My suggestion is to develop at home, save $$$, and send out your best shots for good scans. But getting a home scanner is preferable, if budget/space allow.
Older Epson scanners are cheap: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Epson-Perfection-4990-Flatbed-Scanner-with-Film-Masks/324025981767?epid=92338626&hash=item4b71741b47:g:79AAAOSw5rdeB8Tt
Do everything yourself, in the long run it's much less expensive, and you'll be rewarded by the knowledge and skill you've gained, and you'll improve quickly and drastically in all your photographic endeavours.
The only part that I would not do at home is the (digital) printing. If you print occasionally, it's not worth keeping a large, high-cost/high-maintenance printer at home.
I very much agree with this. In my case, the local labs charge $10 per sheet to develop and scan. It doesn't take long to exceed the cost of a decent scanner, 3 boxes of film and you are already more than the cost of an epson v850.
Alan Klein
28-Dec-2019, 18:59
Side question. I shoot MF landscapes. Beside size of negatives or chromes, are there really that much advantage with LF 4x5 due to the tilts etc?
Bernice Loui
28-Dec-2019, 19:43
There was a time in the past when one could easily make 4x5 color transparency, color negative or B&W prints with ease. The routine was to load film, expose film, have the film processed at a GOOD lab then have a print made. Cost was not too bad due to the volume of film based images back then.
Today that has changed lots. IMO, a truly GOOD color transparency processing lab today is very rare with GOOD print labs rare too. This has funneled that print making process into the digital realm. Film based color prints are still do-able, but becoming exceedingly difficult with more passage of time.
For those who have not done view camera sheet film images before, know there is a STEEP learning curve where lots of film will be burned in this learning process. Add to this the cost per sheet of film and processing today. This does not account for the image makers time and related resources required to expose that first sheet of film. Suggestion being, do consider learning on the lowest cost sheet film and processing at the beginning unless one has a BIG pile of $ to burn on this endeavor.
Cost of film & processing will easily exceed the cost of camera-lens and film exposing related hardware after the first several boxes of film done.
B&W sheet film images remain mostly reasonable compared to film based color images.
Bernice
Bernice,
It's listening to you that is another big reason I have not taken the plunge into LF.
So much of this "hobby" is now becoming a relic. And in becoming as such, more and more cost burnen is moved to the users.
I'm just afraid about getting into something that requires me to take on an endless stream of more hobbies just to sustain the first hobby!! First the camera, then development, then printing... there's a ton of cost in all that and like you said, it's a steep learning curve, which is fine, but also equates to cost.
Bernice Loui
28-Dec-2019, 23:48
Hello Adam,
Trying LF or any sheet film today is not a low cost endeavor. View cameras, lenses and related can be purchased or very modest cost. The real cost lies in film, processing and the print making process. Once the print is done, comes mounting and framing to make the print presentable.
This is not a casual hobby with modest cost. To do this seriously demands commitment in monetary funds coupled with dedication and passion for expressive image making.
Compare this to modern and current digital images with extremely modest cost for each image stored in electronic form, transmitted in electronic form, can be printed in mass at a electronic information (data) center using highly mechanized-electronic print process.
The film to chemistry print process is FAR more difficult and involved today. This is one of the many reasons why the cost of prints made with this process is that much more costly today.
IMO, seriously consider what is involved with image making from film to print before getting involved with any view camera as the light recording device is a small part of what is required to produce a print.
Bernice
Bernice,
It's listening to you that is another big reason I have not taken the plunge into LF.
So much of this "hobby" is now becoming a relic. And in becoming as such, more and more cost burnen is moved to the users.
I'm just afraid about getting into something that requires me to take on an endless stream of more hobbies just to sustain the first hobby!! First the camera, then development, then printing... there's a ton of cost in all that and like you said, it's a steep learning curve, which is fine, but also equates to cost.
Tin Can
29-Dec-2019, 06:55
Bernice is correct
It also depends on how much you want to do it. I know my motivation well, it stems from childhood in the 50's and a short episode of shooting and developing tiny Minox 8X11 mm film. Age 7, father built a plywood closet in basement and let me figure it out. But he denied me an enlarger even if I found a way to buy one from my work delivering newspapers. I also sold Coca Cola in tiny cups to the other kids. A hustle.
Without an enlarger it was stupid, I also didn't get eyeglasses until 7, I have extremely poor eyesight.
However, I stole his 35mm camera and started my lifelong hobby of taking pictures. Send the film somewhere and get it back in a surprise box later. I still love getting boxes.
I shot 35mm all my life, until I paused 2001 and switched to the new fad, Digital cameras, inkjet printers, computers. Spent a lot of money on quickly obsolete gear. I was also an early adopter of VHS video cameras, buying a $2000 set in 1981. Fun for a while, but now landfill. All tapes made destroyed by someone close to me. Also shot 8mm film in the 60's, that I still have and converted to digi.
I also have all my 35mm slides shot from about 1958.
I took a college class on DR film in 1998. Shot all assignments on 35mm and my new toy digital camera 1.3 mp. Change was coming fast.
2008 I became retired early, age 58 and despaired for the workplace I loved. Got real sick, disabled for years.
I realized I NEEDED an intense hobby to get me moving. First I tried an old interest, Ham Radio, got a license and radio. But I don't like to chat on radio... boring! and now any shortwave radio can be operated by computer remotely, also boring. Internet now supplies news from far off places without the fun of tuning in foreign countries in a Radio Shack, aka room without a view, like a Darkroom without water...
So I joined this forum 8 years ago. I struggled and still do with everything you are. But I became fascinated with all aspects of LF.
I like the history of photography
I like the old gear especially, as I love fiddling with it all
I like using film and making mistakes, I use a lot off X-Ray film for mistakes, aka testing...study X-Ray film elsewhere on this forum
I like the now refined process of DIY analog imaging. Endless possibilities and new things happening all the time. One member now makes glass plates with his DIY film emulsion and sell piles of them.
Many members advocate and write books on how to do all that and more. Making film, making paper with emulsions for prints.
Many here do all kinds of obscure processing, some even make a buck on their efforts.
Many consider the Art of Photography to be paramount and love to emulate or improve on historical practitioners.
We have experts as old as 90's showing us how to do it. Very actively. We also have young ones that are very good. Some learn slower, some faster.
I also consider myself an Artiste' but not of photography, my thing is performing my little dance of art or NOT ART as it may be.
As far as value of all this. I never sell any art, portraits, wedding snaps or other oddities.
Not because i am wealthy, because I never want a business again. I live very cheaply on Social Security income only. But did sell off my motorcycles for this better hobby.
Each paycheck about $200 is used carefully for more photographic gear. Yesterday that was a big umbrella for a strobe. Waited 2 years for that.
Life is short, get going. Now!
but always have fun
BrianShaw
29-Dec-2019, 07:19
Repeating wisdom for emphasis (and brevity):
“Bernice is correct. It also depends on how much you want to do it.”
“Life is short, get going. Now! but always have fun.”
John Kasaian
29-Dec-2019, 07:54
Learning new stuff keeps your brain active
Schlepping around a big camera keeps you physically active
Making photographs in a wet dark room keeps you humble
It's all good!
I'm somewhat new to large format, only been doing it a bit over a year now, but for me a huge part of the enjoyment I get from the process is working in the darkroom processing film and prints. Shooting with the cameras is also a lot of fun (I also do landscapes), and the big cameras are definitely conversation pieces, but I would highly suggest looking into a darkroom to use. That doesn't need to require a huge investment on your end, there are still darkrooms open to the public in many major cities. You mentioned that you are in the Phoenix area, so I did a quick search on localdarkroom.com, and found at least one in that area open to the public, called Art Intersection. Their prices look similar to what I've seen other darkrooms charge, and are definitely cheaper than sending out all your work to a lab. This would limit you to black and white photography, so if you wanted color you may still have to send it out. As Ari said yesterday, after two or three trials it becomes pretty easy to remember the process.
As for gear, I would suggest not buying anything special. For my entry into large format, I bought a Graflex Graphic View II for under $150 (with a lens). It's not a perfect camera, but it works well enough, and I have some photos from it that I think are better than any of the ones I've taken with my newer 8x10 setup. I don't know anything about your area, but at least where I am there exist a few brick and mortar camera stores that have the occasional 4x5. If you find a store like that, you may be able to get a camera for even less than what I spent on the graflex. Brick and mortar stores have less of a market to sell to than online, so sometimes sell niche items like these for less.
Those are just my thoughts, you don't have to agree with them. I think most important of all is just to make sure you're having fun, and to do what you enjoy. As long as you're following that rule, things will fall into place.
Got to thinking and I forgot to mention something important. I have a Nikon D850 and state of art lenses so I don't really --need-- any large format stuff. And yet I've been putting most of my effort this year into large format. I shoot entirely different things with the D850 than I do with the large format. For color work I use the D850. I use the 4x5 and 5x7 to do something different. Since last August I've been doing wet plate photography on tin using lenses from 1840s to 1860s. It gives me a look I just can't get from the D850. I also shoot b&w film and dry plates for this reason. I'm not trying to replicate what I do with the Nikon; in fact I'm doing the opposite. While I do have modern lenses for my 4x5--75mm, 90mm, 135mm, 180mm, 300mm, I also have a set from 1905 to 1930 (Dagors, Heliar, Tessar, Velostigmat) and a set of 8 lenses from 1844 to 1865. I've mostly been using that latter set this year as I get an entirely different look than I would with modern lenses.
Kent in SD
Kent, are we related? Are you the brother I always thought was out there? Are we cut from the same cloth? You're freaking me out!! LOL.
This is what I'm looking for in large format. I don't know exactly what that is or looks like, but I know it's different than what I can do with my D7200.
Very interesting....
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.