portrait lens that will fold inside crown graphic [Archive]

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Ben Haning

11-Dec-2019, 13:41

Bernice Loui

11-Dec-2019, 16:05

Define "portrait lens" beyond focal length.

Bernice

Louis Pacilla

11-Dec-2019, 19:02

I was recently given a crown graphic 4x5 with 135mm xenar lens. What lenses of typical portrait length, 180-240mm, will fold up inside the camera?
How hard is it to find cams for the top rangefinder crown graphic rangefinders?
Ben

Doubt many if any of lenses in your wanted FL will fold up a crown or speed. Also consider a 240 plasmat wont get you to portrait distance on either a crown or speed. A 240 tele lens may get you close enough for say, 3/4 portrait but will not fold up in a crown or speed for sure.
You'll have do your own digging around the net to see if there is an solution to making your own cams for top mounted. I do know it's not easy/easier to find any but the 127-135 range cams but that doesn't mean impossible just may take time, patients & luck.

Ben Haning

11-Dec-2019, 19:29

I guess by "portrait" I mean a lens that would work well for close up head/head and shoulder views with little distortion of facial features. In my 35mm experience I like the 70mm look for most subjects.

11-Dec-2019, 19:33

The 203mm Optar/Ektar lenses aren't technically portrait lenses but can do a really nice job at many things.

LabRat

11-Dec-2019, 20:17

Mark Sampson

11-Dec-2019, 20:21

240mm on 4x5 equals, more or less, the 70mm f.l. on 35mm. But any 240 you can find won't close on a Graphic.
Perhaps a Goerz 9-1/2" f/9 Artar... but that lens is razor-sharp and a slow f/9 to boot.
I have a 10" Graflex Tele-Optar but I've only used it on my 3x4 Speed- and it's too big for that camera to close, too. I can't even say if it will cover 4x5 at portrait distances, but it might. Perhaps someone else will know for sure.

LabRat

11-Dec-2019, 20:29

Edit/ I just checked a beater Pacemaker CG near me and see under 12" of extension, so very limited extension...

Try focusing up close with your 135mm, and see if it crop down to head shot range as a test, and check how much bellows extension is left (I doubt very much)... Steve

Bob Salomon

11-Dec-2019, 20:29

The problem would be if you were shooting a head shot, you would be close to the subject, but the Graphic only had double extension bellows which might be totally extended but not focusing close enough...So your choice of FL will be limited when working up close... It might only work with a 150 or maybe a 180mm, but by using a close up lens attachment, you might be able to save it...

I don't know for sure, but the camera bellows extension is very limited...

Steve K

Although a portrait length won’t fold into the camera you might look at a Technika lV, V or Master. Cams for lenses from 72 to 360mm are easily available as our infinity stops and focus scales, they have a triple extension bellows and extended lens boards are available for increased extension. It rangefinder couples and it’s optional viewfinder corrects for field size and parallax for all focal lengths for 45 from 72 to 360mm. It also accepts a supurb Anatomical grip that adjusts for virtually hand size and angle and accepts a cable release for very convenient. The cable detaches from the grip for gg focusing, composing and shooting. Longest lens that will fold into it is a 150mm.

Being an all metal camera with full movements front and back it will be heavier the a press camera, but it can do much more then a press camera!!!

Dugan

11-Dec-2019, 20:48

I can tell you that a Fuji 150mm f/6.3 (inside writing) in a Seiko shutter fits inside a closed Pacemaker Crown Graphic. Hope this helps...

Pedro_fiz

12-Dec-2019, 04:05

I have a Rodenstock 200 Imagon. It Is not for everybody but this lens is different...

Ben Haning

12-Dec-2019, 06:51

Thanks for the suggestions for lenses. I think a 203mm Kodak would be nice if I can find one that is in good shape. I appreciate all your advice.
Ben

EdSawyer

12-Dec-2019, 06:57

240mm f/9 Fuji will certainly fold up inside, easily.

Louis Pacilla

12-Dec-2019, 07:10

240mm f/9 Fuji will certainly fold up inside, easily.

Yes Ed but HOW will he get the 240(f9-Portrait?) to do head/head & shoulders with the limited bellows? He WANTS to do tight portraits with this not landscape.

Bernice Loui

12-Dec-2019, 10:33

This would imply a focal length about 200mm or so. Given the limited bellows on a CG, achieving head/shoulder could be challenging to no-go. Using an extension lens board would work, but that will not fold up in the CG as numerous others have already replied.

Know CG are a press camera which is why the about 135mm focal length standard lens. When these cameras are pressed into making images they were never designed for that is when the difficulties appear. Best to use the CG for it's designed intended images. This is why deciding on the images to be made should be the first choice, second lens types that fit the needs of the images to be made, third the camera.

Bernice

I guess by "portrait" I mean a lens that would work well for close up head/head and shoulder views with little distortion of facial features. In my 35mm experience I like the 70mm look for most subjects.

Ben Haning

12-Dec-2019, 12:50

Thanks for the great advice. I was given the Crown Graphic by a cousin that is a retired newspaper photographer. So I was trying to use it for portraits of relatives during the holidays. My cousin also gave me a Mamiya c330 with several lenses. I may just use the crown graphic for group photos and the Mamiya c330 with 180mm lens for individual portraits. I have a whole plate camera with about 450mm of extension that has a whole plate back, 5x7 back and a 4x5 back. It will be better suited to the types of close up portraits I want to make. The whole plate camera is just larger, heavier, and slower to set up, needs a tripod etc.

Peter Collins

12-Dec-2019, 15:14

Note from a non-purist: Cropping is not forbidden, nor is it a sin. With lenses that are suggested in this forum for your CG you may well have unwanted image area on the negative. Thus you might print just a part of the negative, the portrait you want. If so, that leads to two additional considerations: 1. Final size of the print and its sharpness acceptable to you, and 2. Grain of the film you use (or will use).

Keep drilling down! You will figure it out!

Bob Salomon

12-Dec-2019, 15:43

John Kasaian

12-Dec-2019, 22:32

Hmmm....how about reversing the lens board? Is it possible? I haven't looked at a Crown Graphic in quite awhile.

MAubrey

12-Dec-2019, 23:04

One thing to keep in mind is that magnification at portrait distances is greater for large format, so you benefit in getting a tighter AoV with less perspective distortion at shorter focal infinity focal lengths once you focus closer.

I tweeted about the difference a while back...
https://twitter.com/michaelgaubrey/status/1043296293320183808

Sanford

13-Dec-2019, 08:12

I have a 210mm Dagor in a Copal 1 shutter that I would wager would fold up into a Crown. You might look at older lenses. Dagors are all pretty small for their focal length and they seem to be coming down in price from a few years ago

Bernice Loui

13-Dec-2019, 11:05

TLR has a distinct advantage over a view camera without an assistant for head/shoulder portraits, this is the ability to visually see the image to be made in camera without having the image blank or film holder loaded or etc that prevents capturing the portrait sitter's emotional expression.. which is THE important aspect of portrait image making together with lighting. All those techno details mean much of zero compared to capturing the essence of the portrait sitter.... Connecting with your portrait sitter is primary, all the techno stuff is very secondary.

To do this with a view camera properly requires an assistant to manage the camera and always have the camera ready to shutter release with film loaded in the view camera. This is less so with a TLR as one of see the portrait sitter's image in camera and run the camera with a cable release. The 180mm on your C330 is pretty close to the ideal focal length for head/shoulder portraits in that film format. Once the technical details are done and properly addressed, this C330 set up should be excellent for your H/S portrait needs.

As for the CG, use it with the 135mm as is for group images as the large film size works to an advantage here and doing a VC group image can work really well.

Bernice

Thanks for the great advice. I was given the Crown Graphic by a cousin that is a retired newspaper photographer. So I was trying to use it for portraits of relatives during the holidays. My cousin also gave me a Mamiya c330 with several lenses. I may just use the crown graphic for group photos and the Mamiya c330 with 180mm lens for individual portraits. I have a whole plate camera with about 450mm of extension that has a whole plate back, 5x7 back and a 4x5 back. It will be better suited to the types of close up portraits I want to make. The whole plate camera is just larger, heavier, and slower to set up, needs a tripod etc.

Bob Salomon

13-Dec-2019, 12:19

TLR has a distinct advantage over a view camera without an assistant for head/shoulder portraits, this is the ability to visually see the image to be made in camera without having the image blank or film holder loaded or etc that prevents capturing the portrait sitter's emotional expression.. which is THE important aspect of portrait image making together with lighting. All those techno details mean much of zero compared to capturing the essence of the portrait sitter.... Connecting with your portrait sitter is primary, all the techno stuff is very secondary.

To do this with a view camera properly requires an assistant to manage the camera and always have the camera ready to shutter release with film loaded in the view camera. This is less so with a TLR as one of see the portrait sitter's image in camera and run the camera with a cable release. The 180mm on your C330 is pretty close to the ideal focal length for head/shoulder portraits in that film format. Once the technical details are done and properly addressed, this C330 set up should be excellent for your H/S portrait needs.

As for the CG, use it with the 135mm as is for group images as the large film size works to an advantage here and doing a VC group image can work really well.

Bernice

Having spent many years as a studio portrait photographer I can attest that it does not require an assistant to shoot head and shoulder, full length, ¾, bridal or nature portraits. It is easily done on any format including, 35mm, roll film, 4x5, 5x7, split 5x7 or 8x10. I used all of them while I was shooting portraits.

ottluuk

13-Dec-2019, 14:35

A 210mm f/9 G-Claron in Copal 1 can be folded in a top rangefinder Crown with a little care. Rodenstock Geronar 210mm f/6.8 and the Tessar-type Yamasaki/Osaka 210mm f/6.3 are similar in size so might also fit - maybe someone can verify. Nikkor-M 200mm f/8 is even smaller and should be no problem.

Len Middleton

13-Dec-2019, 16:59

It might just be me, but I would not think that a f9 G-Claron would be considered a portrait lens on 4x5, but it is a small lens and might fit when it is closed up on the CG.

The 210 G-Claron will close in my Technika V and one of the reasons have it. For portraits, I would pull the 210 f4.5 Heliar out of the bag after removing the G-Claron from the camera...

Sorry, I cannot think of a lens that would check off both those boxes...

LabRat

13-Dec-2019, 17:29

Having spent many years as a studio portrait photographer I can attest that it does not require an assistant to shoot head and shoulder, full length, ¾, bridal or nature portraits. It is easily done on any format including, 35mm, roll film, 4x5, 5x7, split 5x7 or 8x10. I used all of them while I was shooting portraits.

Yes for environmental portraits done from a slight distance, but I think a view camera is not the tool for the job when shooting C/U portraits... Yes I know it has been used successfully for over a century shooting fine portraits, but in the time lag between loading a holder and firing the shutter, a lot can happen... Someone can blink, shift around, tilt a little forward/backwards, camera can shift while loading etc... Being able to view and focus up to the moment of exposure was a breakthrough!!! It sucks when the focus point ends up too far in front or behind the eyes, and we certainly don't want to bring back the head immobilizer... ;-)

Back in the day with LF portraits, it had to be big film to retouch and contact print, but went out when enlarging became the norm... And with roll film, someone can shoot a series of exposures quick and without thinking too much about the camera, and can select the best one later...

I think the OP'S TLR is the way to go for a active setting, and save the sheet film for a private setting...

Steve K

Bob Salomon

13-Dec-2019, 18:45

Yes for environmental portraits done from a slight distance, but I think a view camera is not the tool for the job when shooting C/U portraits... Yes I know it has been used successfully for over a century shooting fine portraits, but in the time lag between loading a holder and firing the shutter, a lot can happen... Someone can blink, shift around, tilt a little forward/backwards, camera can shift while loading etc... Being able to view and focus up to the moment of exposure was a breakthrough!!! It sucks when the focus point ends up too far in front or behind the eyes, and we certainly don't want to bring back the head immobilizer... ;-)

Back in the day with LF portraits, it had to be big film to retouch and contact print, but went out when enlarging became the norm... And with roll film, someone can shoot a series of exposures quick and without thinking too much about the camera, and can select the best one later...

I think the OP'S TLR is the way to go for a active setting, and save the sheet film for a private setting...

Steve K

Blinking or shifting or grimacing is not a problem for an experienced photographer. You are watching them all the time. You see if they have shifted position, you see when they blink. It is really very easy to control with a view camera, and a string to check nose to lens distance. All it takes is practice, and attending some seminars or classes if they didn’t teach it in photo school.

Bernice Loui

15-Dec-2019, 10:58

Brings up the differences in portrait goals. There was a time when formal portrait photography and wedding related portrait photography was made famous by folks like Rocky Gunn, Monte Zucker, Bill Stockwell, Phil Chairs (used a 5x7 view camera for studio portraits). This group and others in this style of portrait photography was much about crafting an image that met the ideals of the portrait sitter of how they wanted to be portrayed in a still image.

Another take on Portrait image making are folks like Imogen Cunningham, Howard Swartz, Irving Penn and others with different goals, to capture more of the emotional or personality essence of the portrait sitter.... based what they are willing to reveal of themselves. This is quite different than commercial portrait making to meet the expectations of a portrait client.

Consider the origins of Portrait painters, Rembrandt style of lighting (interpreted in paintings), Hollywood photographers like Clarence Sinclair Bull, George Hurell and others, and how they influenced the world of portrait photography. Portrait making has a long history with painters.

Bernice