Cold Temp Paper Washing

[sperdynamite]

I will be using a Versalab 11x14 print washer. My darkroom water heater is only 6 gallon, and currently the water is coming out in the low 50s here in Maine. I have a thermostatic mixer so I can probably get 68 degrees for a while, but I doubt I could maintain it for 30 minutes. Especially if I have to fill the washer first. Any idea how long I should extend a wash to compensate for the low temps?

[Jim Noel]

WHen the water is that cold many chemicals will not dissolve out. I would heat about a gallon of water. mix it with cold water to about 70 deg.F, then you pour a couple of inches into tray. PLace prints in tray and shuffle through them for 2-3 minutes. Repeat this 5 times and they will be clean.

[Eric Woodbury]

I have a similar problem, just not as extreme.

If you want to maintain temperature during wash, follow Ilford's instructions for multiple tray soaks. Saves water, too. If you want to use a washer, don't worry about. I don't think that the temperature matters that much. I have no data to prove this, but washing prints is not a matter of dissolving the 'bad stuff' out of the print, it is a hydro-mechanical issue of having water there to carry away the few molecules of bad stuff when they release from the print. It is much like pulling a hard vacuum on a container: in the beginning the contents flows from the container as would any fluid. As the molecules get scarce, it is a matter of random motion and capturing the orphaned molecules before they scamper off.

Funny thing, I have a few prints floating about on my desk now that I made in 1969 in my home darkroom in the garage. I had no idea what archival meant then, but all the prints from then look fine. Besides, how many of my prints are worth saving anyway?

--ejw--

PS, increased temperature would increase random motion of the molecules, thus providing more opportunity for capture. Another good thing is to minimize fix time. Use as directed.

[Oren Grad]

From Martin Reed's invaluable "Mysteries of the Vortex" article:

Effect of low temperatures on washing time:

Low wash temperature wash results in compacted emulsion, which washes more slowly. Ilford suggests a straightforward doubling of washing time when the temperature is below 10C. A temperature lower than 3 – 4C is rarely encountered in water coming through ground pipes. The use of hypo clearing agent mitigates considerably the problems caused by using cold water.

http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296&garpg=6

[sperdynamite]

I have a similar problem, just not as extreme.

If you want to maintain temperature during wash, follow Ilford's instructions for multiple tray soaks. Saves water, too. If you want to use a washer, don't worry about. I don't think that the temperature matters that much. I have no data to prove this, but washing prints is not a matter of dissolving the 'bad stuff' out of the print, it is a hydro-mechanical issue of having water there to carry away the few molecules of bad stuff when they release from the print. It is much like pulling a hard vacuum on a container: in the beginning the contents flows from the container as would any fluid. As the molecules get scarce, it is a matter of random motion and capturing the orphaned molecules before they scamper off.

Funny thing, I have a few prints floating about on my desk now that I made in 1969 in my home darkroom in the garage. I had no idea what archival meant then, but all the prints from then look fine. Besides, how many of my prints are worth saving anyway?

--ejw--

PS, increased temperature would increase random motion of the molecules, thus providing more opportunity for capture. Another good thing is to minimize fix time. Use as directed.


Hah! You know there was a semi recent episode of the lenswork podcast where the host argued that photographs largely spend too much time worrying about archival extension of print life. As if every proof we make needs to last 500 years. :-) I'll probably just wash for 45 minutes with fiber and let that be that.

[Fred L]

I'd probably try a very low flow rate. not sure what Versalab suggests but I often run as low as 250 ml per minute in my 11x14 Summitek washer.

[Doremus Scudder]

If you're using a print washer, you can simply turn of the water flow for a while and let the prints soak after running it for 15 minutes or so. Then empty the washer and refill with the proper temperature water. Do this a couple of times in 15-minute cycles and then run the washer as intended till the end of a 60-minute cycle. This should allow time for your water heater to recover. Test for residual hypo with HT-2 to be sure of a good wash.

Things to do to minimize wash time for fiber-base papers:
~Minimize fixing time; use the minimum to get a thorough fix (use two-bath fixing)
~Rinse prints well after the last fix.
~Use a hypo-clearing agent.
~Rinse prints well after the hypo-clearing agent
~Wash at 20°-22°C (colder slows things down a lot!)

Best,

Doremus

[jp]

My darkroom is about 58f right now, and cold water is 52f...
I warm up the chemical bottles in a tray of warm water. I'm going to print in a few minutes. I'll start them chemicals at about 75f and they will cool down as I used them. Dektol doesn't work as nicely at room temp.

When rinsing film at least, I just change the water several times over the total rinse time with normal 70f water. It doesn't use much. I do it that way since I am not in the darkroom for the whole rinse and don't want to leave the water running unsupervised.

For paper, I don't actually run out of hot water to mix with the cold. You could also just change the water a few times if you need to conserve hot water.

(I don't conserve; house has a 130 gallon hot water tank for heat storage because of solar hot water. Heat pump water heater would be the contemporary solution)

[esearing]

Just because you have a darkroom doesn't mean you have to do everything in it. I assume you have indoor plumbing and heat in your kitchen or bathroom. Do your initial wash/soak in the darkroom then bring it indoors for "archival" washing.

[Doremus Scudder]

Thinking inside the box :) A larger water heater might be just the solution you're looking for...

Doremus

[Gudmundur Ingolfsson]

About 45 years ago I had a darkroom with cold water only, about 40˚ Farenheit. I washed double weight over night at a slow flow rate and the prints are still OK. It is to be noted that you pay an annual fixed rate for cold water in Iceland, not by wolume.

[Luis-F-S]

I will be using a Versalab 11x14 print washer. My darkroom water heater is only 6 gallon, and currently the water is coming out in the low 50s here in Maine. I have a thermostatic mixer so I can probably get 68 degrees for a while, but I doubt I could maintain it for 30 minutes. Especially if I have to fill the washer first. Any idea how long I should extend a wash to compensate for the low temps?

So why don't you fill the washer and then wait till the heater cranks up again before you begin the wash and then try washing and see what kind of run times you get? If you use a low flow of say 1/4 gpm, it may work. If not adequate, then do fill dumps as suggested on this thread. L

[JMO]

My darkroom is about 58f right now, and cold water is 52f...
I warm up the chemical bottles in a tray of warm water. I'm going to print in a few minutes. I'll start them chemicals at about 75f and they will cool down as I used them. Dektol doesn't work as nicely at room temp.

When rinsing film at least, I just change the water several times over the total rinse time with normal 70f water. It doesn't use much. I do it that way since I am not in the darkroom for the whole rinse and don't want to leave the water running unsupervised.

For paper, I don't actually run out of hot water to mix with the cold. You could also just change the water a few times if you need to conserve hot water.

(I don't conserve; house has a 130 gallon hot water tank for heat storage because of solar hot water. Heat pump water heater would be the contemporary solution)

jp, Your ambient darkroom temps in winter are similar to mine here in Racine, Wisc. Here in the Midwest some of us LFers use electric pig warming mats to keep our trays at the constant, desired temps (and year 'round since my basement darkroom never gets above low-60s F). Check out this thread (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?150560-Your-experience-adjusting-development-times-for-different-stock-and-darkroom-temps&highlight=Kane) from Feb. 2019, and the details I gave at #19 in that thread re pig warmers. 'Stay warm....

[Duolab123]

I put a mag drive pump out of a Fuji Frontier color processor on one of my print washers. After 5 minutes in a small swirling Richards type (or a couple minutes in a tray) I fill the archival washer with water and let the pump run. Way higher flow rate, I would need to run 6 gallons a minute to get that kind of flow.

After 10 minutes I drain, refill ( you can have a bucket of water to fill) . Three 10 minute cycles and it's archival as can be.

I always use hypo clearing agent. I wash at 70F but the hypo clear helps with cooler water.

[Eric Woodbury]

Given 50F water with end result 70F water, at 1 liter per minute, requires 775 Watts. Assume that your washer requires 0.25 liters per minute, only 200 watts required (without too much loss). If you start with 6 gallons of 70F water, your water heater should be able to keep up with the demand without issue.

Working the other way around, your water heater is probably 1300 watts (approx). That is almost 2 liters per minute with 20 degree rise.

--ejw--