transporting a Sinar Standard/Norma 4x5 in the field

[Greg]

So Fred Picker and Minor White both used (initially in Fred's case) 4x5 Sinar Normas. Also Wynn Bullock?, not sure. Both photographers obviously photographed images far from where they parked their cars. Does anyone know in what or how they transported their 4x5 Sinar Normas? I backpack my 4x5 Sinar Norma, but my system isn't all that efficient or compact. Also a bit of curiosity on this end.

[Daniel Unkefer]

I carried my 4x5 Norma in a Zone VI Monorail Bag. Often hiked to locations that way.

Still have everything.

[CreationBear]

If you've not seen it, Neil Poulsen's hack might be a nice starting point:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?137209-Backpacking-a-Sinar-Norma-8x10-Camera
By making that mod to the rail, I'm able to get my Norma 5x7 into a "Husky" brand 17-liter storage bin that makes for a compact package in my (admittedly:)) expedition sized pack. Because I leave the tripod sleeve/bushing on the rail, setting up is as simple screwing in a length of extension rail, extending the bellows so the rail clamp will be cleared, then locking everything down.

That said, if I had a 4x5 Norma, I think Drew W.'s approach is the way to go: IIRC, he rolls with the camera with rail attached upside down in a trash bin, with the bellows perpendicular to the suspension. Of course, you need a pretty big pack bag to pull that off--my Hill People Gear 6500 cu in is just a bit too narrow, though I have an old Bozeman-era Dana Arcflex that would probably handle the camera with an 8x10 format frame.

[Mark Sampson]

I carry my Sinar Norma in a 27-year-old Tamrac case with foldaway shoulder straps and belt. Not the best for real backpacking but it has worked all those years, although I rarely go more than a mile or two from the car with it. (My subject matter is not often that remote, YMMV.)
The Norma fills that bag right up- I bought it for a folding Zone VI 4x5 that I still use- but the Sinar and all its gear does fit, and I've hiked some distance with it. Made some good photos, too.
(I need to fix the loose front standard focusing on the Norma so I'll use it more.)

[B.S.Kumar]

I don't have the Norma now to check, but maybe like this?
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?151689-FS-Sinar-F-4x5-Camera-with-6-quot-extension-rail&p=1495112

Kumar

[Mark Sampson]

The issue with carrying the F-series Sinars is that big rail clamp. The Norma clamp is more compact and that makes it possible to get it in that Tamarac case.

[Bernice Loui]

5x7 Sinar Norma & ground glass protector with:

~two 6" rails & end caps.
~ten 5x7 or 13x18cm film holders.
~standard bellows & bag bellows.
~Minolta Spot F meter.
~dark cloth.
~Horseman GG magnifier.
~B&W filter set.
~sinar shutter.
~sinar shutter cable release and 24" long cable release.
~115mm f6.8 Grandagon.
~165mm f6.8 Angulon in barrel.
~10" C. Ektar or 240mm Xenar in barrel.
~16-1/2" Red Dot Artar in barrel.
*Wrapped in microfiber towels.*

All fitted into a Pelican FAA over head compartment wheeled case.

197852


Bernice

[Drew Wiley]

What good are wheels except on a road, sidewalk, or at an airport? None of that is the "field".

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49139624526_cca31bbd50_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2hSiqnC)4x5 Sinar Norma Soft Bag (https://flic.kr/p/2hSiqnC) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I have road tested this small Zone VI Monorail Bag, with my 4x5" Sinar Norma plus as much of whatever else that would fit into it, sometimes commercial architectural assignments, often day long landscape trips around Ohio. At least ten years, maybe fifteen years of very hard use.

Never did any damage to Norma #1. I did add a Domke Post Office Shoulder Strap which helps a lot.

Actually I am getting this out to fill it up, and start using it again, after 25 years hiatus.

[Drew Wiley]

People got along in the entire Western Hemisphere for 15,000 yrs without wheels or camera bags. All you need is three sections of Mastodon tusk for a tripod, three sections of chipped obsidian for the spike feet, and a live Mastodon named Norma to carry your gear.

[mpirie]

People got along in the entire Western Hemisphere for 15,000 yrs without wheels or camera bags. All you need is three sections of Mastodon tusk for a tripod, three sections of chipped obsidian for the spike feet, and a live Mastodon named Norma to carry your gear.
Does that mean the second Mastodon (called Sinar?) is wandering around with only one tusk? :cool:

Mike

[Bernice Loui]

Kinda depends on the definition of "Field" :rolleyes:

Transport case says much about the kind of images made... One of those who are not fond of muddy shoes if this is any clue :)



Bernice



What good are wheels except on a road, sidewalk, or at an airport? None of that is the "field".

[tgtaylor]

Rather than a Norma, I have a Toyo Robos which is probably similar to the Norma. I haven't hiked with it yet – I take the Toyo AX or CF when hiking – but you can disassemble the Robos by removing the bellows and 6-inch rail w/clamp from the standards and the camera will store in a backpack along with the 2d factory issued rail which will take you our for a 300mm lens.along with the other accessories.

Thomas

Note: The Toyo rails extend simply by screwing one into the other so you don't have to carry a big rail with you.

[Drew Wiley]

Mike - There's more than one kind of mastodon. Some are assembled using parts of others. I've got a tusk missing from one of my old F's, a leg missing from another. Half of the bones of a P2, dug up from the permafrost in perfect condition, are on museum display as the focus device and lens support for one of my big enlargers. Norma is chugging along pretty good by herself after all these years. Her former owner kept her in a clean petting zoo (studio), so she had no battle scars. I take good care of her too, but let her enjoy the outdoors.

[Jim Michael]

When I transported my Horseman monorail I disassembled it and wrapped each component in a lens wrap, then everything went in a Kelty backpack. That was pretty compact and everything was well protected.

[Drew Wiley]

No need to dissemble it at all. That's the idea. I've carried Sinars over 10,000 mi in rough terrain in Kelty's, ready to go w an 18" rail. Got my Norma ready to use in a Kelty top cmpt now. But I might have a different definition of Kelty: the real deal made here, not the book bag import outfit that simply bought the name afterwards.

[Drew Wiley]

I also gotta challenge Bernice's lack of global perspective. If there was no mud, there would be no dirt or water. So if there is neither soil nor moisture, there would be no beer.

[Bernice Loui]

Don't drink beer either :)
But farm fresh gown produce is great. Great outdoors not for me.. of which means about zero for others.

Bernice




I also gotta challenge Bernice's lack of global perspective. If there was no mud, there would be no dirt or water. So if there is neither soil nor moisture, there would be no beer.

[neil poulsen]

I don't have the Norma now to check, but maybe like this?
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?151689-FS-Sinar-F-4x5-Camera-with-6-quot-extension-rail&p=1495112

Kumar

This is the method that Sinar has suggested in some of their literature. But, it seems like a lot of effort goes into packing and unpacking. And, it takes up quite a lot of room.

[neil poulsen]

The issue with carrying the F-series Sinars is that big rail clamp. The Norma clamp is more compact and that makes it possible to get it in that Tamarac case.

I would conjecture that they needed to introduce that long clamp, when Sinar developed the P series cameras. The vertical "rods" on a P standard bearer extend down quite a distance, making the longer clamp necessary. And to accommodate larger formats, like the 5x7 F and 8x10 F, Sinar needed to lengthen those rods, so that the front could have greater rise.

Not only do the longer F/P clamps make it more difficult to stow the camera, they increase the moment arm from the tripod head to the camera. Thereby, this increases the camera's propensity to exhibit "tuning fork" vibrations.

The original Sinar F had a clamp with the same basic dimensions as the Norma clamp, because the vertical rods on the Sinar F were shorter. My favorite Sinar field camera is this original F. I hear they're a little more frail; but then, one need only exert care not to over-tighten their knobs. I also prefer using that original F clamp on Norma cameras. Both the Norma and the longer Sinar clamps permit side to side rotation of the camera on the rail, and I really dislike that unnecessary degree of freedom.

[neil poulsen]

Elaborating a little on the hack . . .

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?137209-Backpacking-a-Sinar-Norma-8x10-Camera

I like this short base rail for use on either the original Sinar F or Norma 4x5 for three reasons:

> It compacts the camera into a small space in a backpack. In fact, I doubt that the camera could be made any more compact.

> Assuming one has a quick release plate attached to the bottom of the clamp, mounting the camera onto a tripod head can be accomplished in a single motion.

> Once the camera is mounted onto the tripod head, adding length to the rail is a simple matter of appending additional 6" rails to the shortened base rail and expanding the camera onto that extended rail. Quick-and-easy.

The assembly in the opening post shows the shortened base rail with a 1.5" cap on the rear. This added length was needed to use the shortened base rail on a Norma 8x10.

But, the same can be accomplished without the cap on the rear, which makes the shortened base rail about 1.5" shorter. (A total length of 6.0", excluding the red knob.) This is what was used on the 4x5 shown at the bottom of the first page of the thread. Again very compact.

Years ago, I considered the possibility of using a Sinar F. But the huge size of the "collapsed" camera, and the clumsiness of breaking it down, made me look further. I ended up going with an Arca Swiss Classic F that I purchased at a swap meet for $400.

But fast forward to the present, for me, this shortened base rail helps to bring the Sinar F (or the Norma 4x5) into it's own as a viable field camera.

[Drew Wiley]

The F & P rail clamp was not strong enough for some applications; the camera would slip sideways when carried on a tripod. So they came up with a deluxe version II. Both allow you to keep the clamp on the tripod, then just drop in the rail. The Norma style clamp is lower profile and needs to remain on the rail. They're all fully interchangeable in usage. As far as the original F, or F+, the front standard was nothing more than an intermediate standard, which wore out quickly. F delrin focus gearing and a few other things are smoother than a Norma; but overall the Norma is a much more durable camera than an F for only about a pound more weight similarly equipped. I also greatly prefer the original 4x5 Norma tapered bellows to the box-style bellows on the F and P series.

[Greg]

The F & P rail clamp was not strong enough for some applications; the camera would slip sideways when carried on a tripod. So they came up with a deluxe version II. Both allow you to keep the clamp on the tripod, then just drop in the rail. The Norma style clamp is lower profile and needs to remain on the rail. They're all fully interchangeable in usage.

And then there was the Rail Clamp that W. Eugene Smith used when he photographed Pittsburgh for an article in LIFE. Was custom made for him by the photo department at LIFE.

[neil poulsen]

I also greatly prefer the original 4x5 Norma tapered bellows to the box-style bellows on the F and P series.

Hi Drew,

What advantages do you see in the tapered bellows?

[Drew Wiley]

The tapered bellows can be used shorter without scrunching up, or needing a bag bellows except for very short focal lengths. It takes rise etc better without scrunching. It can also be extended longer without stress on the pleats, and is therefore more durable for routine long lens use. The original Norma bellows is also made a lot better overall. It was probably expensive to make. So I can see the mfg advantage of the box bellows design which replaced it, because it can be made in long lengths and simply sliced off for more than one size. I have a Horseman 28 in box bellows that doesn't sag like the Sinar version would that long - no intermediate support necessary, but rarely use it anymore because the Norma bellows is so versatile, at least with the longest lenses I routinely use for 4x5 (450mm). I was lucky to find two original Norma bellows in mint condition.

[Tin Can]

The tapered bellows has a pleasing aesthetic which complements the stylish Norma polished aluminum

And yes it works well too

Form and function

[CreationBear]

at least with the longest lenses I routinely use for 4x5 (450mm).

I'm assuming you're getting a little extra by using tilt, but what's the closest you can focus your 450mm? I've been pondering that focal length for my Norma 5x7 but felt a little short-sided for the more "intimate" landscapes I encounter here Back East. (Seriously thinking about getting Custom Bellows to make me a 600mm...they seem like good fellows.:))

[Drew Wiley]

There's no limit to rail length with any Sinar or similar rail design. Even an 18 inch Sinar rail is longer than that due to the cap extensions at each end. No need to use tilt function simply for more reach. I use it for tilt as needed. I already mentioned there's a Horseman bellows that extends up to 28 inches without need of a central support, which will fit Sinar too. I don't know how common they are anymore. Custom Bellows is a good supplier, if you go that route. The problem with 600's is finding one that won't weigh excessively on the front standard or have excessive vibration due to a huge shutter. I use the 450 C quite a bit for both 4x5 and 8x10. Just because we have steep topography and long views here in the West doesn't mean "intimate" landscapes are forgotten. In fact, I shoot far more of that kind of thing than distant subjects. And I think you'd find a lot more use for a 450C on 5x7 than using any 600. It's extremely lightweight and optically very crisp. With 600's you have to be acutely aware of wind vibration issues and depth of field limitations.