Macro Lens For Panasonic DC-S1R For Large Format Film Scanning?

[LFLarry]

I am currently researching my options for a high resolution digital camera scanner primarily for my 4x5 film, but ocassionally for 8x10 film.

Another user on the forum here suggested that I look at the Panasonic Lumix DC-S1R mirrorless full frame camera because of its astounding pixel shift technology.

I think this camera could be in my future for my scanning my large format film, but I don't seem to see a true 1:1 macro lens available?

So, this brings up a couple of questions:

1 - For 4x5 sheet film, is there a preferred focal length? I don't own any digital cameras, so I can't test.

2 - Do you know of any 1:1 macro lenses available?

Any input or ideas for building a high-resolution film scanning system is welcome.

Thanks

Larry

[Peter De Smidt]

Larry, do you need 1x magnification with a pixel shift camera? That will take about 24 frames to cover 4x5, and about 100 to cover 8x10. I've made a semi-automated camera scanner that works at 1x magnification.
For it, I use a Rodagon D 75mm, which is optimized for 1x magnification. I went that route because when I started the project, many years ago, my camera was Nikon D200. Today, I use a D600 and 3 frames to cover an 8x10 negative. I simply use an enlarger lens. I can't remember which one, but I can check if it's important. That gives me plenty of info to make the size enlargements I make. Add pixel shift, and you should be set for very large prints.

Infor on the newest scanner is here: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?153244-Manuscan-810&highlight=Manuscan

Info on the older scanner is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmRHTausFls , although that's an early version.

[LFLarry]

Hi Peter, I am new to the digital/scanning game, and I didn't realize the things you mentioned.

I appreciate the info and I agree with you that a 1:1 macro lens really isn't needed, especially with a 187MP high res RAW file from the Panasonic S1R camera.

Now that I understand this a little better, what focal length makes sense for 4x5 and 8x10 then?

I assume the vast majority of the time a single high res image will be enough, so finding a focal length and magnification that will not be wasting too many of those pixels would be good. Also, the aspect ratio difference between the full-frame S1R and the 4x5/8x10 film will mean some cropping by default, so I would like to plan for 2 or 3 images in the event I need it.

I am starting a new project next year and if all goes well, I may need to be able to make very large prints, like in the 48x60 or bigger range.

I appreciate your help.

Larry




Larry, do you need 1x magnification with a pixel shift camera? That will take about 24 frames to cover 4x5, and about 100 to cover 8x10. I've made a semi-automated camera scanner that works at 1x magnification.
For it, I use a Rodagon D 75mm, which is optimized for 1x magnification. I went that route because when I started the project, many years ago, my camera was Nikon D200. Today, I use a D600 and 3 frames to cover an 8x10 negative. I simply use an enlarger lens. I can't remember which one, but I can check if it's important. That gives me plenty of info to make the size enlargements I make. Add pixel shift, and you should be set for very large prints.

[sperdynamite]

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1463159-REG/sigma_sigma_mc_21_mount_converter_lens.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1393480-REG/sigma_70mm_f_2_8_dg_macro.html

^^^That's what you need. Exotic adapted lenses with German names do sound fun until you have to fiddle around to get a decent capture. When you are camera scanning you're shooting at 5.6-11, at these apertures the Sigma is performing perfectly from corner to corner. Now there actually will be a native L mount Sigma 70 at some point, but it's just not available yet. Given the sale prices it looks like I wasn't spending much more going the adapter route.

A guy named Richard K (something) has done a TON of side by sides with many macros. He too has settled on the 70 as the best performer even when considering special enlarging lenses.

A single pixel shift capture will get you to 155mp from 4x5/8x10. Add in a few stitches and you should be easily able to achieve that 60" print size. Of course it goes without saying that 60" prints will always create challenges, no matter what you're using. You could probably investigate wet mounting even for the camera scan. It's probably worth doing just for the dust and defect masking.

[LFLarry]

Hi, thanks for the links and the info.

I really think we are finally at a place where we have the tools and technology that will at least equal drum scans, and arguably possibly even better. This is really exciting on a lot of levels and the S1R is just the starting point. New advances are right around the corner.

Based on my research, I had already come to very similar conclusions as you.

I think the native L-mount Sigma 70mm lens is likely the best option, but the cost of the Sigma EF mount 70mm macro lens and the adapter isn't a big issue. Both can be sold on eBay in the future and then I could by the native Leica L-mount Sigma lens when it is available.

I was wondering how many pixels I would end up with after the difference in the aspect ratios. I was thinking I would put the S1R in 4:3 mode because it is closer to the 4x5/8x10 aspect ratio. At least do that for single captures. I welcome any thoughts or ideas about this too.

In regards to the wet mounting of the film, I have a quick question because I am new to all of this. I was planning on using the Epson wet mount kit. If there are better ideas, please let me know.

Here is the question. I wanted to confirm that I should wet mount the film with the emulsion side down. This seems logical to me, but I wanted to confirm.

Also, I assume I would use optical mylar, just like I would be wet mount scanning the film with a regular scanner?

Thanks!



https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1463159-REG/sigma_sigma_mc_21_mount_converter_lens.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1393480-REG/sigma_70mm_f_2_8_dg_macro.html

^^^That's what you need. Exotic adapted lenses with German names do sound fun until you have to fiddle around to get a decent capture. When you are camera scanning you're shooting at 5.6-11, at these apertures the Sigma is performing perfectly from corner to corner. Now there actually will be a native L mount Sigma 70 at some point, but it's just not available yet. Given the sale prices, it looks like I wasn't spending much more going the adapter route.

A guy named Richard K (something) has done a TON of side by sides with many macros. He too has settled on the 70 as the best performer even when considering special enlarging lenses.

A single pixel shift capture will get you to 155mp from 4x5/8x10. Add in a few stitches and you should be easily able to achieve that 60" print size. Of course it goes without saying that 60" prints will always create challenges, no matter what you're using. You could probably investigate wet mounting even for the camera scan. It's probably worth doing just for the dust and defect masking.

[LFLarry]

I found a review on B&H about the Sigma EF mount 70mm lens in the L-mount adapter that is concerning because this user is doing exactly what we are discussing.

Please review and share your thoughts...

Here is the review: "I have tested this lens against several other highly-regarded macro lenses, including some classics like the Oly 90mm f/2.0 and the Tokina 90mm f/2.5 Bokina. The image quality of the Sigma lens was far better than any of these, at any aperture. There is no chromatic aberration. Its sharpest aperture is f/4.0. A great lens. I bought mine in Canon mount, for use with the Sigma MC21 mount converter for the Panasonic S1R. It focuses by wire. Crazily, the focus ring moves different distances depending on the speed of the focusing movement, and slow fine focusing movements don't engage the internal lens elements at all!!! This means it cannot be focused precisely in the macro realm on this camera. It is also not compatible with the Panasonic's focus bracketing features. Also, as usual nowadays with B&H, it was shipped with grossly inadequate padding."



https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1463159-REG/sigma_sigma_mc_21_mount_converter_lens.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1393480-REG/sigma_70mm_f_2_8_dg_macro.html

^^^That's what you need. Exotic adapted lenses with German names do sound fun until you have to fiddle around to get a decent capture. When you are camera scanning you're shooting at 5.6-11, at these apertures the Sigma is performing perfectly from corner to corner. Now there actually will be a native L mount Sigma 70 at some point, but it's just not available yet. Given the sale prices it looks like I wasn't spending much more going the adapter route.

A guy named Richard K (something) has done a TON of side by sides with many macros. He too has settled on the 70 as the best performer even when considering special enlarging lenses.

A single pixel shift capture will get you to 155mp from 4x5/8x10. Add in a few stitches and you should be easily able to achieve that 60" print size. Of course it goes without saying that 60" prints will always create challenges, no matter what you're using. You could probably investigate wet mounting even for the camera scan. It's probably worth doing just for the dust and defect masking.

[sperdynamite]

I found a review on B&H about the Sigma EF mount 70mm lens in the L-mount adapter that is concerning because this user is doing exactly what we are discussing.

Please review and share your thoughts...

Here is the review: "I have tested this lens against several other highly-regarded macro lenses, including some classics like the Oly 90mm f/2.0 and the Tokina 90mm f/2.5 Bokina. The image quality of the Sigma lens was far better than any of these, at any aperture. There is no chromatic aberration. Its sharpest aperture is f/4.0. A great lens. I bought mine in Canon mount, for use with the Sigma MC21 mount converter for the Panasonic S1R. It focuses by wire. Crazily, the focus ring moves different distances depending on the speed of the focusing movement, and slow fine focusing movements don't engage the internal lens elements at all!!! This means it cannot be focused precisely in the macro realm on this camera. It is also not compatible with the Panasonic's focus bracketing features. Also, as usual nowadays with B&H, it was shipped with grossly inadequate padding."

I believe there have been some firmware updates to improve focusing with the adapter, but... I have never once bothered to manually focus when scanning with this lens. The contrast detect AF works very well. Plus since you're usually tethering you can confirm focus right away. But again, the AF has never failed me.

[sperdynamite]

Hi, thanks for the links and the info.

I really think we are finally at a place where we have the tools and technology that will at least equal drum scans, and arguably possibly even better. This is really exciting on a lot of levels and the S1R is just the starting point. New advances are right around the corner.

Based on my research, I had already come to very similar conclusions as you.

I think the native L-mount Sigma 70mm lens is likely the best option, but the cost of the Sigma EF mount 70mm macro lens and the adapter isn't a big issue. Both can be sold on eBay in the future and then I could by the native Leica L-mount Sigma lens when it is available.

I was wondering how many pixels I would end up with after the difference in the aspect ratios. I was thinking I would put the S1R in 4:3 mode because it is closer to the 4x5/8x10 aspect ratio. At least do that for single captures. I welcome any thoughts or ideas about this too.

In regards to the wet mounting of the film, I have a quick question because I am new to all of this. I was planning on using the Epson wet mount kit. If there are better ideas, please let me know.

Here is the question. I wanted to confirm that I should wet mount the film with the emulsion side down. This seems logical to me, but I wanted to confirm.

Also, I assume I would use optical mylar, just like I would be wet mount scanning the film with a regular scanner?

Thanks!

I use a custom made 10x12 platform that holds a piece of ANR glass about 4" above my Kaiser Slimlight Plano. I personally have not bothered to wet mount but yes, if I were to I would use optical mylar, emulsion side down. And yes I scan 4x5 in 4:3 mode. It's actually strange that the camera doesn't have a 4x5 mode. Again the resulting file is about 155mp. Big enough for a 44" printer. I have a 24" printer so, even better. My goal with the S1R was to eliminate the need for stitching which I find laborious. The S1R definitely delivered for me. Plus I love that the camera charges while tethering simply using the USB-C cable. Really smart! My previous camera required an AC adapter if I didn't want to use the internal battery.

[LFLarry]

Thanks, good to know. First-hand info and experience are very helpful.

What format films are you scanning with the S1R and the Sigma 70mm setup?

Also curious how the pixels hold up if interpolating (enlarging) in Photoshop if you are doing this?



I believe there have been some firmware updates to improve focusing with the adapter, but... I have never once bothered to manually focus when scanning with this lens. The contrast detect AF works very well. Plus since you're usually tethering you can confirm focus right away. But again, the AF has never failed me.

[Peter De Smidt]

I have a couple things: Lens tests are tricky. What matters is the performance of your lens in your system at the magnification that you're going to use. I've only tested about 20 lenses with a high resolution target, and I have only one sample of each lens. Vibration characteristics, alignment, and focusing issues are paramount. At 1x, my Rodagon D at f/4 is the best of all of my lenses, but at other magnifications that's not true. Someone says, "This is what you should use"....I'd be really skeptical, especially if they don't say how they came to this conclusion. So, I recommend the following. Use what you have first. Fine tune your results. Then, if you feel like it, get other lenses and compare. Carefully. More than once....return the new lens if it's performance is not worth it's cost.

Btw, light source evenness, color performance, and masking are important, as a camera system is much more susceptible to flare than a drum scanner.

Regarding 5:4: don't do it if you're gong to use more than one shot to cover the neg. If you put the long end of the sensor across the short end of the film, then the sensor length will limit maximum resolution. You want to use all of the sensor. Otherwise, you're just throwing resolution away. If you're doing just one shot of a negative, then it might make sense to use 5:4 for 5:4 and 10:8 film, since you'd just be cropping off the extra.

Daniel Moore uses 5:4 with his D810 to scan at 1x. He feels that his lens, a 90mm Schneider Componon M, falls off in performance a tiny bit at the edges of full-frame. But he's using an automated positioner to take 25 frames of one 4x5 negative.
Of all my lenses, the ultimate resolution was achieved with a Nikon 5x measuring microscope lens, but it would take a crazy number of exposures to cover a large format negative, and even I'm not that crazy.

[sperdynamite]

Thanks, good to know. First-hand info and experience are very helpful.

What format films are you scanning with the S1R and the Sigma 70mm setup?

Also curious how the pixels hold up if interpolating (enlarging) in Photoshop if you are doing this?

I'm scanning nearly all formats from 35mm to 8x10. The 70 is great for this because it allows single capture of all these formats on a copy stand.

Here is a jpg of a 4x5 I scanned for a client. Portra 160 neg, unsharpend. https://www.dropbox.com/s/vfg0peyjojirxvh/EB450008.jpg?dl=0 The raw is a little bit better than the jpg, but frankly I have no need for greater quality than this. This lens is already resolving the grain, and I can produce a 360dpi print at my maximum print size. In these situations I will downsample, which further cleans up an already very clean scan.

[LFLarry]

WOW... thanks for sharing the JPG. I just looked at it at full size and wow... I am sold!

I need to print big (40x50, 48x60, etc), so I will need to explore doing multiple exposures and merging in Lightroom, but I feel like I am on the right path.



I'm scanning nearly all formats from 35mm to 8x10. The 70 is great for this because it allows single capture of all these formats on a copy stand.

Here is a jpg of a 4x5 I scanned for a client. Portra 160 neg, unsharpend. https://www.dropbox.com/s/vfg0peyjojirxvh/EB450008.jpg?dl=0 The raw is a little bit better than the jpg, but frankly I have no need for greater quality than this. This lens is already resolving the grain, and I can produce a 360dpi print at my maximum print size. In these situations I will downsample, which further cleans up an already very clean scan.

[sperdynamite]

WOW... thanks for sharing the JPG. I just looked at it at full size and wow... I am sold!

I need to print big (40x50, 48x60, etc), so I will need to explore doing multiple exposures and merging in Lightroom, but I feel like I am on the right path.

40x50 would be a very insignificant upres in PS. Personally i'd still do that in a single capture. 60, not sure. I'd at least test the upres. OTOH if you have the time testing 2-3 capture stitches may be worthwhile. I sort of feel that only the most highly detailed images would suffer.

[wattsie]

For those using the S1R to camera scan, how do you tether? I know Capture One does not support tethered shooting and have heard the Lumix software is not reliable.